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[Proposal 04-01-2009] Larger Mining Containers

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Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:25:00 - [1] Hello all, This idea is the fourth in the series I hope to present to CCP at the Reykjavik meeting. This one deals with miners and jetcan mining in general, without eliminating jetcan mining and the opponents it creates. The containers in the game of Eve do not serve the function they were originally designed for. It's obvious that they were not designed for 'saddlebagging', where they enlarge the size of the cargohold of a ship. Their use as a stashing area for ore during mining, while it may have been effective when the game was first released, is currently almost useless with the yield of a Mining Barge or Exhumer. While I believe that larger containers themselves would be counterproductive to the game, there is an option for a new type of container. This container would not be able to be used while in a cargohold or station, but only when deployed in space during mining operations. This container should cost about 5,000 ISK and take up 500 m3 while unassembled (similar to the way the POS structures or ships take up far less space when unassembled, and able to fit inside a properly-equipped astrometric frigate). They would be weaker than a standard container, with less hitpoints, and would only exist in space for 24 hours if left assembled (but could be disassembled to take it back into the ship's cargohold). The container would fit up to 15,000 m3 (about half of what a jetcan holds) and would take about 30 seconds to assemble or disassemble in space, as well as anchoring and password protecting it. It could be accessed by any hauler to remove the ore (with the appropriate password, of course), and would only be able to be disassembled once empty. It would not take any roles to deploy, but the Anchoring skill (level 1) would be required to anchor and password protect it. As with all deployables, the container would not be able to be anchored in 0.8 or higher security systems, but could still be deployed (without the password). I believe this would be one of the best options for the continual fight against or for canflipping, while still allowing the easier method of jetcanning to be used. As always, I accept any constructive criticism on this topic. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:58:00 - [2] CCP already introduced a larger mining container, i think they call it an Orca. --
ian666 Minmatar Lamb Federation Navy	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:00:00 - [3] Edited by: ian666 on 25/12/2008 21:02:25 bad idea, mining is already to easy, too safe and too profitable
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:03:00 - [4] Of course, everybody knows the Orca is cheap and easily accessable to new players in the game. Also, if mining is so stupidly easy, why are the prices on minerals continuing to rise? "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
ian666 Minmatar Lamb Federation Navy	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Bunyip Also, if mining is so stupidly easy, why are the prices on minerals continuing to rise? because macrominers rising prices, and because ccp dont want to do anything to end it, well it is like it is
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Bunyip Also, if mining is so stupidly easy, why are the prices on minerals continuing to rise? The rising price of trit has nothing to do with how easy or not easy mining is. It has to do with the cause and effect relationship between SUPPLY and DEMAND. If you fail to understand the underlying causes between SUPPLY and DEMAND then I suggest you go visit the Market Disccusions Board, and have them explain it to you. --
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Bunyip Also, if mining is so stupidly easy, why are the prices on minerals continuing to rise? The rising price of trit has nothing to do with how easy or not easy mining is. It has to do with the cause and effect relationship between SUPPLY and DEMAND. If you fail to understand the underlying causes between SUPPLY and DEMAND then I suggest you go visit the Market Disccusions Board, and have them explain it to you. I'm sorry, you must've thought that the word Minerals only refers to Tritanium. There are 8 ore-based minerals in this game, and Tritanium is only one of them. The prices on all of them have been continuing to rise because demand is higher than supply. What I'm trying to do is to draw interest into the activity of mining, thereby increasing supply and balancing out the prices. New players often quit mining due to ore theft, which I'm not trying to get rid of completely (as I've outlined above). This will just give them a practical way of mining without having to worry about the abundant supply of ore thieves out there. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:40:00 - [8] A larger can would be always a good idea.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:49:00 - [9] Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 25/12/2008 21:02:25 bad idea, mining is already to easy, too safe and too profitable I agree with this.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:51:00 - [10] Jetcan mining is an EXPLOIT. The intended way to mine is to fill up cargo -> Warp to station. Or, fill up one of the smaller secure contianers. Jetcan mining is kept in the game because it adds risk to miners for the extra potential profit. Anything that allows miners basically the same benefit of a jetcan without any of the risk is stupid and should never be added. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.

FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:52:00 - [11] No there are plenty of tools and methods available. No need to dumb down the system anymore.
Orogaldeo Extreme Solutions Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:13:00 - [12] Edited by: Orogaldeo on 25/12/2008 22:12:53 I, for one, am laughing uncontrollably at this suggestion. Supported, I really want to see people cursing trial accounts suiciding against your 15k secured can. ________________________________
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.12.26 03:13:00 - [13] Could just allow jetcans to be anchorable once named? They die @ next downtime. They also die if empty. So if anyone finds a jetcan in a belt with nobody around... they know it has something; and can steal it. Also ignore treelox because he trolls this forum just to say NO! and never gives a good reason. Just go look at his last posts. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.26 04:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Bunyip Hello all, The containers in the game of Eve do not serve the function they were originally designed for. It's obvious that they were not designed for 'saddlebagging', where they enlarge the size of the cargohold of a ship. Their use as a stashing area for ore during mining, while it may have been effective when the game was first released, is currently almost useless with the yield of a Mining Barge or Exhumer. Hi, Bunyip. Ready to get owned? Hold on to your tin foil hat. Originally by: EVE-Online Knowledgebase Secure containers can be used to prevent theft. For that reason, we recommend that you use them when mining in groups or by yourself instead of using the regular jet canisters. Gee, looks like CCP says use secure cans or a hauler. Hey, want a Developer repsonse on jet can mining? Sure: Originally by: Wrangler Ore thievery was never an "intended feature", you were never intended to mine into cans at all. Players discovered that it was efficient and soon after that other players discovered they could steal the ore easily without consequences. People wanted to be able to retaliate against ore-thiefs and they got their wish granted. Learn your EVE history and the gd game mechanics before you speak, you clueless noob. If you don't like the current game mechanics, maybe you should see my sig. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.26 07:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Vaal Erit Gee, looks like CCP says use secure cans or a hauler. Hey, want a Developer repsonse on jet can mining? People wanted to be able to retaliate against ore-thiefs and they got their wish granted. Learn your EVE history and the gd game mechanics before you speak, you clueless noob. If you don't like the current game mechanics, maybe you should see my sig. And that has to do with cargo containers being too small how? I know jetcans were never intended for mining, and I don't use them myself. The secure cans that they recommend are practically useless with the yields that miners now gain. I'm just trying to give miners something small that will help them in their quest for minerals in order to keep them involved with the activity. I know mining needs a complete overhaul, and I anticipate it's reincarnation. For now, I'm just trying to give miners a way to stay active without giving them an I Win button. If that is wrong, tell me how? "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2008.12.26 07:58:00 - [16] Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 26/12/2008 07:58:48 No, no and No. Get an Orca pilot with you. Problem solved. Cheaper solution: Get a T1 hauler pilot with you in YOUR CORP. Problem solved X2. --Isaac P.S. Geez, I came up with a solution to a problem that never existed. I think I should be in the CSM >_> --Isaac Starstriker Diplomat of SOLAR
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.12.26 08:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker P.S. Geez, I came up with a solution to a problem that never existed. I think I should be in the CSM >_> feel free to run next time. See how lulzy it really is. At least he's posting. I'm seeing nothing from basically everyone else. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 08:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Jetcan mining is an EXPLOIT. The intended way to mine is to fill up cargo -> Warp to station. Or, fill up one of the smaller secure contianers. Jetcan mining is kept in the game because it adds risk to miners for the extra potential profit. Anything that allows miners basically the same benefit of a jetcan without any of the risk is stupid and should never be added. Curious how CCP has introduced 2 ships based around that exploit: Orca and Rorqual. Maybe after some years they have changed idea?
Annacron Adaptive	Posted - 2008.12.26 10:04:00 - [19] I don't get this, how can jetcanmining not fit in to the ever so howly risk/reward system? With jetcans you can mine more efficiently, reward, but with higer risk since it can be easily stolen. If you're not paying attention there's even a secon nerf to it, jetcans dissapear efter a certain amount of time, taking any content with them. "the miners can fight back" Ohrly? how many canflippers actully steal the ore? And how many stealit just to jett it again, hoping for some legal miner kills? So fighting bak/taking ore back is the most stupid thing to do. Unless ofcourse that's what you where after, to blow up some canflippers. But then you're not realy after the ore in the first place are you?
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2008.12.26 10:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Bunyip I'm sorry, you must've thought that the word Minerals only refers to Tritanium. There are 8 ore-based minerals in this game, and Tritanium is only one of them. The prices on all of them have been continuing to rise because demand is higher than supply. What are you smoking? Morphite is down to 9200 and even dipped under 9000 recently, back down from its 15000 price. Mega is also down, the null sec minerals historically come down in price during winter and go back up in summer. Quote: What I'm trying to do is to draw interest into the activity of mining, thereby increasing supply and balancing out the prices. As a miner who ran a Miner II Apoc in Venal in 2004 I can tell you it is a whole lot nicer to mine in a hulk. One of the reasons I quit before was due to wrist strain from mining in that Apoc. Quote: New players often quit mining due to ore theft, which I'm not trying to get rid of completely (as I've outlined above). This will just give them a practical way of mining without having to worry about the abundant supply of ore thieves out there. New players quit for many reasons all it takes is some good tutoring or mentoring. I would like to suggest you consider this type of mining op: 1 Orca 1 Hauler X Miners 1 Pew Pew ship in the Orca ship array Any bonuses from the Orca also translate into frigates and cruiser mining ships. As stated above its a win win situation when you involve corpmates. Issue solved.

Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.28 01:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Bunyip And that has to do with cargo containers being too small how? I know jetcans were never intended for mining, and I don't use them myself. The secure cans that they recommend are practically useless with the yields that miners now gain. I'm just trying to give miners something small that will help them in their quest for minerals in order to keep them involved with the activity. I know mining needs a complete overhaul, and I anticipate it's reincarnation. For now, I'm just trying to give miners a way to stay active without giving them an I Win button. If that is wrong, tell me how? I'll try again. I'll go slow, very slow. Maybe read my post a few times. MINERS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO JET CAN MINE. If you know that jetcans are not intended for mining then why do you want a secure can almost the size of a jet can to mine? Secure cans are big enough. They allow for small mining operations to keep their ore safe and if you use a GSCs with some thought and a hauler you can easily avoid ore thieves. You want secure jetcan mining. I like how you are trying to deny it but you *clearly* say in your first post that you want secure jet can mining. Don't lie to the player base, it is very unbecoming of a CSM member. I don't see how your game-breaking "idea" makes miners more active. How is a secure jetcan not an iwin button for miners? Have you put any thought into your "ideas"? No, no no no no no no a thousand times no. If you want to use a GSC and a hauler to securely mine, congratulations. If you want to fit expanders and fill up your cargohold and then dock, congratulations. If you want easy mode mining into a secure jetcan then gtfo. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Xephys	Posted - 2008.12.28 03:46:00 - [22] While I can appreciate the effect of this idea, which is a buff to mining, something that repels players new and old to be turned into something a little nicer, it's not the right way to go through with it at all. As others have stated, all you'd be doing is letting miners jet-can mine safely, which is a silly idea. You saying it's not like a Jetcan won't work because a jetcan is free, your idea is 5000ISK (almost free). It still has a massive cargo bay and is easily deployable. How about a can that has that size of a cargo and all that good stuff, but costs a lot of money to produce. Would mean the miner has to invest in something that would boost his hourly ISK income. There would still be a danger of people shooting the can, but this can be solved by giving it concord/militia aggro, meaning that you're likely to die after you've destroyed the can, without getting insurance. Would give a nice risk to it, but not something you'd see everyone doing. Just throwing out ideas.
Foulque	Posted - 2008.12.28 04:40:00 - [23] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 25/12/2008 21:02:25 bad idea, mining is already to easy, too safe and too profitable I agree with this. X2, stop posting Bunyip.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.28 05:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Bunyip The container would fit up to 15,000 m3 (about half of what a jetcan holds) and would take about 30 seconds to assemble or disassemble in space, as well as anchoring and password protecting it. It could be accessed by any hauler to remove the ore (with the appropriate password, of course), and would only be able to be disassembled once empty. It would not take any roles to deploy, but the Anchoring skill (level 1) would be required to anchor and password protect it. As with all deployables, the container would not be able to be anchored in 0.8 or higher security systems, but could still be deployed (without the password). No, but if you created a container such as this which had different rules attached to it, you might get more support. For example - you deploy a special "Mining Can" which is, as you mention, very low in armor/structure. Make it longer (as opposed to your idea) to deploy, lasting a significantly shorter time (i.e. usable for 1 hour, max), and sure, give it a password. However, and here's my contribution, make it so that if someone shoots the can, they can get aggro from the MR, but would NOT be Concorded for the offense. Now, you have a can with greater capacity (a boon for MR's!) and the balance of non-Concord intervention for the griefers. From the RP side, it could be understood that "Mining Cans" just don't show up on Concord's scanners, and thus, they don't know when they're being shot. I might (might) support something like this, but certainly not the idea you're proposing here. We're Recruiting!
Ugor Batarr Minmatar Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:28:00 - [25] Things are fine as they are now - no need for a change.
Heavy Mellow Salmon of Doubt	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:39:00 - [26] I support this idea if for no reason other than the hostility the OP encountered by the first few responses. Safer and easier mining for all! \o/ Can flippers can go suck a lemon. -- Hello, I am Heavy Mellow.
Shinma Apollo Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:26:00 - [27] This isn't the worst idea seen on the CSM. That said, it's probably the worst idea I've seen today.
Ignition SemperFi Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.29 16:07:00 - [28] do not want. i would much rather like to see all the jetcan miners be banned for them exploiting the game by using jetcan's ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun. Quote: They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.29 17:37:00 - [29] This idea is dumb, mostly for being unnecessary, but a lot of the posts here are even dumber. Jetcan mining is not an exploit - it's originally unintended, but legitimate and quite well balanced due to the ability to steal it. - Lottery - Golem! Cruiser BPC Store
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.29 17:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto This idea is dumb, mostly for being unnecessary, but a lot of the posts here are even dumber. Jetcan mining is not an exploit - it's originally unintended, but legitimate and quite well balanced due to the ability to steal it. this



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