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Boris Naeb	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:43:00 - [1] hi, i do not know how exacly works macro mining programs. Idea is to apply some veryify real preson test when mining ship warp in asteroid belt. example - when we warp in asteroid belt EVE client pop up some letter in one row , and in second row four letters with one from first row, the player should pick good one to be able to mine. That would be difficult for honest players (miners) - but isn't worth to do that? This is general look, what you think? sorry for terrible english thx borys
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:48:00 - [2] I can just see it now, warp in find out its not safe and die while trying to type the correct letter or the pop up box apears over something. It also breaks immersion and is just plan irritating. How does it know only to pop up for the miners? ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
AmosTrask Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:08:00 - [3] How about we just use this thread to generate a list of know MM's and petion ccp with it. Or we could derail it and talk about mince pies. Do you get it?
Boris Naeb	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Boris Naeb on 26/12/2008 13:24:50 maybe simple veryfiy test when we activate first mining laser? simple I mean just one click, no typing something. I know that is difficult and can be hard to do this, but we block micro miners programs.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:37:00 - [5] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 26/12/2008 13:38:19 Originally by: Boris Naeb Edited by: Boris Naeb on 26/12/2008 13:24:50 maybe simple veryfiy test when we activate first mining laser? simple I mean just one click, no typing something. I know that is difficult and can be hard to do this, but we block micro miners programs. Tbh mining is annoying as it is, without making yousolve puzzles or clicks etc. to verify your presence. Mining bots is a nightmare and its operators cheaters who needs to be banned and removed from the game. But I would prefer doing it a way without having to make all miners potentials suspects, putting them on continuous trials to verify their good intentions. After all its a game. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Boris Naeb	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:43:00 - [6] I see, but I would take this burden just for chance to eliminate computer miners. Maybe some votting? It is really hard to click one more time before miner laser will start working, i do not get it.
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:53:00 - [7] change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. then make a simple application that starts with eve online (in the background. 99% of players wont know about it) which looks for third party applications. flag such accounts and ban once a month. lose a ****load of subscribers, and go bankrupt... macrominers support the eve economy with the basic ore atm. they are also the reason why the mining profession sucks atm. CCP should deal with this very carefully. _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Boris Naeb I see, but I would take this burden just for chance to eliminate computer miners. Maybe some votting? It is really hard to click one more time before miner laser will start working, i do not get it. If you have been sitting and mining for 6-7 hours - not to mention 10-12 hours - which DO happen now and then - yes, it gets pretty annoying... Remember: there are people out there who do make a living out of mining. And you dont do that by mining a few hours only. Its not only macroers who do spend lots of time in the belts, but ordinary dedicated players too! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Salliene Gallente Terracorp Technologies Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:09:00 - [10] The companies that run these macro mining bots are in it for the money, therefore whatever you come up with to prevent them from macroing they will find a way around it in no time. It's not a game to them, it's a way of life, so whatever obstacle you put in their way they WILL find a way around it. The only way to stop macro miners and ISK sellers is to get the players to STOP BUYING FROM THEM. But they obviously have enough EVE players willing to shell out real money to keep their business afloat with dozens of employees, so I don't see that happening anytime soon. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:23:00 - [11] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. if it includes third party applications for macroing then it is not your business alone. though i agree, but it is a price i would be willing to pay to get rid of macroers...\ it is true, they probably will find a way around it, but there will be less of them. i remember reading about it, not sure what year it was. blizzard did something like this and banned thousands of accounts (half of the eve player base). im not sure if i would do it. that is still a big number of accounts which pay the monthly fee. and that fee allows for better servers, and better services... _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Abulurd Boniface Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. I wholeheartedly agree. I don't need the thought police to determine whether I cheat in a game or not. Mining is my business and I do all of it myself. I don't want to be the subject of continuous probes. Clicking a character? No thanks. Don't put the onus on me, the honest player, put the onus on the people who break the system. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease.
Gadwad	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Dr Axler Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. if it includes third party applications for macroing then it is not your business alone. though i agree, but it is a price i would be willing to pay to get rid of macroers...\ it is true, they probably will find a way around it, but there will be less of them. i remember reading about it, not sure what year it was. blizzard did something like this and banned thousands of accounts (half of the eve player base). im not sure if i would do it. that is still a big number of accounts which pay the monthly fee. and that fee allows for better servers, and better services... WOW still has a LOT of botters.
Billy Sastard Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Dr Axler Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. if it includes third party applications for macroing then it is not your business alone... And what if I am not using the macroing software for EVE, but for some mundane work related stuff, then I cannot play the game? There are too many situations where people completely innocent of cheating would get burned here. <-------------------------------------------------> "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:21:00 - [15] Edited by: GateScout on 26/12/2008 16:23:31 Think of EVE not as your personal game, but as a business. What makes sense to you from a business stand point? Would the cost of implementing anti-macro code and removing macros from the game (perhaps, as you're not sure to eliminate them) boost your revenue? Would your code get in the way of AFK autopilot flying? Would this, in fact, **** off your current customer base? What would it do to mineral prices? What are the other aspects of the game that would be effected? ...? Bottom line: Are macros a big enough deal to write extra code, inconvenience your current player base and, most importantly increase your revenue? Probably not. While macros are a bit of a pain, they don't hurt the majority of the player-base in any real, significant way. I mean...how many paying subscribers have quit because of macro miners? I bet that number is pretty small. If CCP finds a way to increase subscriber numbers and remove macros, I have no doubt they will owrk on implementing it.
Major Templar Caldari DFX Industries	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Major Templar on 26/12/2008 16:47:17 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Boris Naeb I see, but I would take this burden just for chance to eliminate computer miners. Maybe some votting? It is really hard to click one more time before miner laser will start working, i do not get it. If you have been sitting and mining for 6-7 hours - not to mention 10-12 hours - which DO happen now and then - yes, it gets pretty annoying... Remember: there are people out there who do make a living out of mining. And you dont do that by mining a few hours only. Its not only macroers who do spend lots of time in the belts, but ordinary dedicated players too! I myself am a dedicated miner and I spend anywhere from 8 to 16 hours in a system mining with my corp gang. I don't say belt because one belt does not last me and my gang for more then about an hour. And let me tell you, if I had to click something special or take some test every freaking time I started my mining laser, well I would just quit the freaking game because that would be so annoying.
Breaker77	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. Then you never have played or never will play a battle.net game. When you create your online account you have to agree to let it use "Warden" on you. Warden scans your cookies, running processes, and registry looking for known hacks/cheats and bans accounts automatically if it finds one. Sadly, I remember when it considered Microsoft Paint a hack
Boris Naeb	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:02:00 - [18] thx for answers, so I see that macro miners are no problem for miners, not so much to take some action or to complcate their mining job. cheers borys
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Don't put the onus on me, the honest player, put the onus on the people who break the system. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO in order to see who breaks the system you must check everyone. so by letting ccp scan everyone's PCs, only those actually breaking would be affected. _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
masternerdguy Gallente Gate Control	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:40:00 - [20] what? thats easy to get around! All you have to do is use a OCR program to identify the characters to type. Use a catcha? one problem: some of these exist that get 80% accuracy or more on catchas.
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Gadwad WOW still has a LOT of botters. wrong, wow has less botters. although that is still allot yes :) _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Billy Sastard Originally by: Dr Axler Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Dr Axler change the eula to allow searching through the clients ram. This would be the day I would cancel my account. What I am doing besides playing EVE is my business alone. if it includes third party applications for macroing then it is not your business alone... And what if I am not using the macroing software for EVE, but for some mundane work related stuff, then I cannot play the game? There are too many situations where people completely innocent of cheating would get burned here. it doesn't look for all macros. it looks for very specific software. it doesn't even ban all botters, just those using software the company which made the game decided isn't legal. (although, as someone pointed out, on the example of the warden, there were a few bugs:) ) _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:48:00 - [23] Originally by: masternerdguy what? thats easy to get around! All you have to do is use a OCR program to identify the characters to type. Use a catcha? one problem: some of these exist that get 80% accuracy or more on catchas. yes, that is exactly true. OCR bots can even avoid being caught by the ram searching application as they do not need to fiddle with ram, just look at your screen. however OCR bots are allot harder to make and there is allot less of them. _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:56:00 - [24] Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 26/12/2008 16:23:31 Think of EVE not as your personal game, but as a business. What makes sense to you from a business stand point? Would the cost of implementing anti-macro code and removing macros from the game (perhaps, as you're not sure to eliminate them) boost your revenue? Would your code get in the way of AFK autopilot flying? Would this, in fact, **** off your current customer base? What would it do to mineral prices? What are the other aspects of the game that would be effected? ...? Bottom line: Are macros a big enough deal to write extra code, inconvenience your current player base and, most importantly increase your revenue? Probably not. While macros are a bit of a pain, they don't hurt the majority of the player-base in any real, significant way. I mean...how many paying subscribers have quit because of macro miners? I bet that number is pretty small. If CCP finds a way to increase subscriber numbers and remove macros, I have no doubt they will owrk on implementing it. totally agree here. lots of thinking to be done, and personally im not sure i would ban them if i was the CEO. as i said, they pay the fee, which pays for better server and services. another thing is that a player which reads the description of a miner in the character creation screen, and decides he likes it better then soldier one, cant hope to make as much mining as the soldier one will make missioning. in fact, when he will ask for advice, he will most likely be told to train for a raven or make a new character ;) wow had the same choice a few years back. let people complain, or ban. then warden came out. it didn't ban, it kept records. then, thousands of accounts were banned. i think something along the lines of half of the entire eve player base atm (number of active accounts) _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:03:00 - [25] I want CAPTCHA checks on every click a player makes! So when he fills in a CAPTCHA, he will also get a CAPTCHA for that, and so one. Would make Jita more quiet too. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Dr Axler Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Don't put the onus on me, the honest player, put the onus on the people who break the system. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO in order to see who breaks the system you must check everyone. so by letting ccp scan everyone's PCs, only those actually breaking would be affected. i'd give you 3/10, for execution if not content
Selene Arlath	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:48:00 - [27] Well if you wanna do something like that, there's a really simple way to do it. When you register to forums, you often... well, pretty much always these days.. have to type in a word combined of letters and numbers that you see in a random picture. Add one of those for engaging your mining laser, and voila, macrominer death. That is... you make them have to do that each time they return to a belt to start mining anyways, but hey. So yeah, that's my suggestion.
masternerdguy Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Selene Arlath Well if you wanna do something like that, there's a really simple way to do it. When you register to forums, you often... well, pretty much always these days.. have to type in a word combined of letters and numbers that you see in a random picture. Add one of those for engaging your mining laser, and voila, macrominer death. That is... you make them have to do that each time they return to a belt to start mining anyways, but hey. So yeah, that's my suggestion. until you add the high grade OCR, along with other wonders of programming.
Jakooni	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:54:00 - [29] Originally by: masternerdguy Originally by: Selene Arlath Well if you wanna do something like that, there's a really simple way to do it. When you register to forums, you often... well, pretty much always these days.. have to type in a word combined of letters and numbers that you see in a random picture. Add one of those for engaging your mining laser, and voila, macrominer death. That is... you make them have to do that each time they return to a belt to start mining anyways, but hey. So yeah, that's my suggestion. until you add the high grade OCR, along with other wonders of programming. Don't forget the flux capacitor, Marty. Seriously, that's a completely boneheaded suggestion that will only cause the few people that actually do regularly mine to find something else and only help to destroy what's already a pitifully neglected profession in EVE.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:57:00 - [30] Originally by: masternerdguy what? thats easy to get around! All you have to do is use a OCR program to identify the characters to type. Use a catcha? one problem: some of these exist that get 80% accuracy or more on catchas. You don't need it. Most game macros now integrate with the software itself and read the memory locations. The problem is that computers don't talk in puctures, they talk in code... ASCII being one of them. No doubt someone will soon find the location of the memory containing the ASCII code it's looking for and just code it into the macro to look there. Probably the best way is if you come across any macro programs for Eve, grab them and send them to CCP so they can use algortihms to specifically find them in the same way a VK finds viruses. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again

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