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Blakelore	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:39:00 - [31] Well, I gotta say one thing... ME Research on T2 BPO's does offset the building price per unit. A typical T2 BPC invented will typically have a max of ME of 0 while it is typically a -4. While on the other hand a T2 BPO can have a ME of much greater, i.e. ME 20. That in it self can make Invetion T2 BPC's not able to compete at all, without losses. There are quite a few things I can not invent and even break even with the current prices ( even if I got all my datacores for free ) So the T2 BPO's do have an effect in major trade hubs. Well, something for you all to think about.. at least.
Elocineax Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.28 19:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Lui Kai Edited by: Lui Kai on 28/12/2008 11:37:35 Originally by: Elocineax Thank you for your thoughtful response... [snip]you have a wallet balance of 100M ISK. Your agent gives you 100 datacores . . . Between liquid and solid assets - you are now worth 110M ISK. You build something with these 100 datacores. You sell the thing you built for 8M ISK. Between liquid and solid assets - you are now worth 108M ISK. You have lost 2M ISK off your total valuation.[snip] In summation: If you don't consider the market value of things you build with - whether you paid that market value or not - then you wind up making less money than you otherwise would have, thereby lowering your overall financial strength. Thank you. This I understand. Very much appreciated. Actually never considered my assets as part of my worth in-game. Eloc
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Blakelore Well, I gotta say one thing... ME Research on T2 BPO's does offset the building price per unit. A typical T2 BPC invented will typically have a max of ME of 0 while it is typically a -4. While on the other hand a T2 BPO can have a ME of much greater, i.e. ME 20. That in it self can make Invetion T2 BPC's not able to compete at all, without losses. There are quite a few things I can not invent and even break even with the current prices ( even if I got all my datacores for free ) So the T2 BPO's do have an effect in major trade hubs. Well, something for you all to think about.. at least. Keep in mind that the difference between ME10000 and ME-4 on most item BPCs may only make 1-2% difference to the build cost as waste is not applied to most of the materials (and when it is it is rounded down). It is typically higher on ships, however it is still not as bad and the BPOs are unlikely to be researched much as the research takes a very long time and the savings compared to the lost revenue is not all that much. And again, the waste is rounded down, so the difference between ME levels is not all that much. In order for something to sell for below invention cost, typically the profit the BPO owner has to be making on their BPO would be particularly small, with most in that region going for as much as collectors items as they would make back in over a decade of continual production. Most of the reason the prices are low is the total lack of demand for that item, so without the BPO you may find that there were no buyers anyway, since there are few willing to pay low prices, fewer still will pay higher prices. (many of these existing buyers are choosing that T2 item because it is cheap, not because it is good).
Sionn Klorgh Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:16:00 - [34] T2 BPOs rock! Remember, they decrease over time as lost ones are never recovered. So their effects drops off over time. Players leave game, BPOs are destroyed via transport. No new ones coming in. Quote: I predict in less than a month AAA will failcascade. - 27th Dec 08, Goon Bandwagon Collective - Against ALL Authorities
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:09:00 - [35] So basically "I started the game way tooo tooo late and am miffed that I didn't get a chance at T2 Bpos" Waaaaaah or Is it "I didn't post on my main, cause reprecussions would be too harsh for me" T2 Bpo's are not going anywhere, CCP made invention to counter act "monopolies"
Ricdics Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2008.12.29 04:39:00 - [36] Anyone can buy a T2 BPO if they want too. I never won any in the lottery but over the years I have purchased around 60 T2 bpos. Stop complaining and pull your wallets out if you want to compete. No freebies here ladies.
Snow Banshee	Posted - 2008.12.29 07:06:00 - [37] I think everybody agree that T2 bpo/lottery was a mistake ( even ccp admitted that), but since eve worked that way for years, they cant be simply trashed away. That told i dont agree that those bpo should be removed, since everybody can buy them ( look at sell order forum.. its plenty of t2 bpo auctions). Another thing to consider: Invention almost corrected all market inflation. I remember the times when a t2 cap rechargers was sold at 24M each. Give a look how much cost now. The fact is simple: Invention is not always wort, but the simple fact that exist prevent BPO owners to sell at crazy prices. In other words they solved the problem arised with T2 BPO and cartell producers. The main reason of invention existence it exactly to prevent excessive price inflation, making it worth where price is not "fair".
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:13:00 - [38] What a lot of people seem to forget is that even named and faction items compete with the T2 items. Several of the T2 items not worth inventing have a named/faction item that is a strong competitor. A classic example are the Armor plates: rolled tungsten has the same HP of the T2 plates and lesser fittings. As the rolled tungsten plates are a common drop in missions and against the right rats there is no real shortage of them. So they are a hard cap for the prices of the t2 plates. Similarly the number of people willing to pay invention costs for small T2 drones would be very little as they are lost frequently and the difference in performance isn't so staggering.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:39:00 - [39] I agree that T2 BPO's should be removed from game. Reasoning - meh what reasoning - I did not win in lottery and now some other guys have advantage over me !!! That is not sarcastic post btw - I do actually think they are ebil. Not bcos they 'break the market' or whateever but bcos some guys who got their isk god-knows-how are just sitting on them and collecting even more isk. Who knows - they might be even be bought with exploited isk that is somehow laundered thru fake scams or fake 'market opportunities' or whatever. So as long as they remain in game I (and perhaps some others, but I can't speak for all) have doubts about how equal are our opportunities in this game. It is not something that would make me quit ofc, but it is something that is nagging in my head and is lowering my happy-o-meter towards EVE.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:08:00 - [40] Originally by: Carniflex I agree that T2 BPO's should be removed from game. Reasoning - meh what reasoning - I did not win in lottery and now some other guys have advantage over me !!! That is not sarcastic post btw - I do actually think they are ebil. Not bcos they 'break the market' or whateever but bcos some guys who got their isk god-knows-how are just sitting on them and collecting even more isk. Who knows - they might be even be bought with exploited isk that is somehow laundered thru fake scams or fake 'market opportunities' or whatever. So as long as they remain in game I (and perhaps some others, but I can't speak for all) have doubts about how equal are our opportunities in this game. It is not something that would make me quit ofc, but it is something that is nagging in my head and is lowering my happy-o-meter towards EVE. Maybe you should trying reasoning next time before you post. Here's my take. CCP did a good job of fixing the problem by creating invention and discontinuing the lottery. I simply don't see why I should care that there are t2 BPOs out there. It's far from the only way to make huge amounts of isk.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Tasko Pal Maybe you should trying reasoning next time before you post. Here's my take. CCP did a good job of fixing the problem by creating invention and discontinuing the lottery. I simply don't see why I should care that there are t2 BPOs out there. It's far from the only way to make huge amounts of isk. The reasons for and against that have been posted over the past year countless times. In the end it boils down to design decision. You can find good and valid points to argue either way. My reason to post in this thread is mostly emotional, as I have been preaching for the removal of tech 2 bpo's for a while now. I do not like hard lines between haves and have nots in computer game that can't be overcome by hard work and dedication of gamer. T2 BPO's are that as only way of getting one is to hope that current owner is willing to sell you one - and nothing you can do can make the owner sell you one unless he want's to.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.29 16:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Carniflex I do not like hard lines between haves and have nots in computer game that can't be overcome by hard work and dedication of gamer. T2 BPO's are that as only way of getting one is to hope that current owner is willing to sell you one - and nothing you can do can make the owner sell you one unless he want's to. Haves and have nots is what Eve is about, and it actually has nothing to do with the BPOs themselves, the isk they generated already went to the lottery winners when they sold theirs, now they are simply in the hands of people that paid way too much for them. There are HEAPS of people selling them, people part with dozens weekly, because quite frankly they realise after buying them that they are not worth what they can sell them for. They are horrible returns on the investment. One that anyone is equally able to make, you just have to put in as much effort to raise the isk for them like everyone else did. Yes, you CAN overcome it by hard work, you just don't want to, because you either can't or won't put in the effort that others did to acquire them. I will agree that their initial distribution method was very flawed, however that doesn't make the items themselves the problem. You can't undo that damage, removing them wouldn't undo it, it would simply take everyone who DID put in that hard work and screw them over, in favour of people that sold theirs at the right time. Quote: That is not sarcastic post btw - I do actually think they are ebil. Not bcos they 'break the market' or whateever but bcos some guys who got their isk god-knows-how are just sitting on them and collecting even more isk. Who knows - they might be even be bought with exploited isk that is somehow laundered thru fake scams or fake 'market opportunities' or whatever. So as long as they remain in game I (and perhaps some others, but I can't speak for all) have doubts about how equal are our opportunities in this game. It is not something that would make me quit ofc, but it is something that is nagging in my head and is lowering my happy-o-meter towards EVE. Probably a significant number of them were removed in relation to the recent POS exploit. I can imagine that buying up irreplaceable things would be high on the list of someone who had virtually infinite isk. As for 'god-knows-how' to get isk. I make more than 5x what the best T2 BPOs make monthly, without a T2 BPO involved at all. It has taken 4 years, but I bet someone could do it in less than 1 year if they were to focus. It is not that hard to make isk in this game, without any scams or tricks, just by being smart about it, and once you get more isk, you can leverage that to make more again. It doesn't take 10x the effort to make 10x as much isk. Originally by: Venkul Mul What a lot of people seem to forget is that even named and faction items compete with the T2 items. Several of the T2 items not worth inventing have a named/faction item that is a strong competitor. Yep, even things like ECM, there is huge supply of the faction ECM's so some like Amarr meta 4 (which are better than T2) sell for less than the build cost of the T2 version from a BPO. - Which means it is impossible for the BPO owner to profit unless people pay more for an item which is worse (which no doubt they do to some extent because they don't know). For some T2 items, they sell because they are cheap, they are cheap because the BPO owners are building them at 0 profit. The can't make a profit because the items are useless or less useful than the alternatives. If you were to remove the BPO, the option to use the 'cheap' item would evaporate and people would just invent the better items, removing some diversity from the game.
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2008.12.29 18:11:00 - [43] T2 BPOs are fine as-is. Do they offer advantages over invented BPCs? Sure. You use less material and generally can build faster. However, are T2 BPOs more economical than invented BPCs when you invent and produce several prints? No. You can only build X Medium Shield Booster IIs with a BPO per day, and you cannot increase that. However, if you use 3 invented BPCs, you can outproduce the BPO owner and thereby make more overall profit. That's right: if you pick your item well (and don't invent small smartbomb IIs) you can make more isk than the mighty T2 BPO owners, for just a little extra effort. T2 BPOs at this point are legacy items that are more useful for keeping a baseline supply up than they are for isk-printing presses. They don't unbalance the game any. Any perceived imbalance is just an illusion, or a very limited example. ----------------------------------------------- Hadean Drive Yards
Gridwalker Amarr Divine Power. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 20:42:00 - [44] Instead of whining about T2 BPO's, why don't you go out and buy one? They're bought and sold all the time. You can find them in the forums. You can find them on contract. I worked hard to afford my T2 BPO, and you want it taken from me because you are too lazy to do the same? What a lazy, ignorant, self-righteous, communist thug! -Grid
Dracira Dracc	Posted - 2008.12.29 21:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Gridwalker Instead of whining about T2 BPO's, why don't you go out and buy one? They're bought and sold all the time. You can find them in the forums. You can find them on contract. I worked hard to afford my T2 BPO, and you want it taken from me because you are too lazy to do the same? What a lazy, ignorant, self-righteous, communist thug! Well, she/he is just whining. There are some areas you cant compete a T2 BPO with invention. But on the other side you wont get a lot of ISK in use a T2 BPO in Modules nobody uses. I agree with you - save your ISK and buy a T2 BPO or way better - make some calculations first - then you can save the ISK. The old and very human: " I only see the best T2 BPO and because i dont have any, they should be removed".
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.12.30 11:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin T2 BPOs are fine as-is. Do they offer advantages over invented BPCs? Sure. You use less material and generally can build faster. However, are T2 BPOs more economical than invented BPCs when you invent and produce several prints? No. You can only build X Medium Shield Booster IIs with a BPO per day, and you cannot increase that. However, if you use 3 invented BPCs, you can outproduce the BPO owner and thereby make more overall profit. That's right: if you pick your item well (and don't invent small smartbomb IIs) you can make more isk than the mighty T2 BPO owners, for just a little extra effort. T2 BPOs at this point are legacy items that are more useful for keeping a baseline supply up than they are for isk-printing presses. They don't unbalance the game any. Any perceived imbalance is just an illusion, or a very limited example. I would like to point out that owning T2 BPO does not prevent you also inventing. In addition to being slightly more material efficent T2 BPO has one quite serious advantage over invention - there is no invention cost itself assosiated with it. Sure - as they are 'rare' people have pumped their price so high that the initial BPO payback time is measured in years so they are not exactly worth usually as invenstment-for-profit. It's a bit like .. well .. real estate ... they can go only higher - right - and you can sell one always afterwards ... err... right. Unless they get nuked or nerfed ofc.
ScutterOne	Posted - 2008.12.30 12:31:00 - [47] Originally by: MooKids If there really was a monopoly, the BPO owners would be selling their wares for insane prices. They are - you can always tell when your up against a BPO producer - the prices are too low to allow for any invention costs. There are a fair few lines which are simply not viable for invention producers.
brinelan Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.30 15:00:00 - [48] Originally by: ScutterOne Originally by: MooKids If there really was a monopoly, the BPO owners would be selling their wares for insane prices. They are - you can always tell when your up against a BPO producer - the prices are too low to allow for any invention costs. There are a fair few lines which are simply not viable for invention producers. Of course, some people think their datacores are free and theyre looking at just what the materials they buy cost and price accordingly. You could be up against some of those in those markets too. Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2008.12.30 15:15:00 - [49] Originally by: ScutterOne Originally by: MooKids If there really was a monopoly, the BPO owners would be selling their wares for insane prices. They are - you can always tell when your up against a BPO producer - the prices are too low to allow for any invention costs. There are a fair few lines which are simply not viable for invention producers. Generally speaking, when one thinks of "monopoly pricing" you think of someone who controls the supply of something charging exorbitant amounts simply because he can and you have no recourse. If the BPO owners are charging dirt-cheap prices for their wares, they aren't making much profit and the items are available to the general public at very low rates. I fail to see the issue there. Plus, as mentioned above, it could be a reseller or dumb inventor trying to dump their stock. If the market for that item is very competitive and the margins are razor thin....maybe you should invent something else. That's the fun part of invention--you can invent anything. If you went in and invented a bunch of T2 ship scanners, don't ***** when you can't make a profit since they aren't selling. Its your responsibility to yourself to gauge the market prior to entering it. Failure to do so is like failing to scout ahead before jumping your industrial into lowsec. ----------------------------------------------- Hadean Drive Yards
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.30 16:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Carniflex In addition to being slightly more material efficent T2 BPO has one quite serious advantage over invention - there is no invention cost itself assosiated with it. Sure - as they are 'rare' people have pumped their price so high that the initial BPO payback time is measured in years so they are not exactly worth usually as invenstment-for-profit. It's a bit like .. well .. real estate ... they can go only higher - right - and you can sell one always afterwards ... err... right. Unless they get nuked or nerfed ofc. The 'serious advantage' is negated by the insane capital vs profits you have to put into one. We're talking about 10+ years worth of profit with most T2 BPOs now. They did get nuked and nerfed every time invention gets buffed or as the supply of datacores increases, this is what has been gradually decreasing their real value. Initially you could buy one for 12 months profits, now it is measured in many many years profits, (this is because profits have fallen way way faster than their price has gained, and in the case of many their value has fallen). Capital loss is going to be a far bigger cost than invention materials if they were ever removed, by a huge factor. Originally by: ScutterOne Originally by: MooKids If there really was a monopoly, the BPO owners would be selling their wares for insane prices. They are - you can always tell when your up against a BPO producer - the prices are too low to allow for any invention costs. There are a fair few lines which are simply not viable for invention producers. I don't think you understand. Cap Rechargers used to sell for 25 million isk, that was the monopoly. Insanely low prices is not something a BPO owner wants, if you have a monopoly the prices will be high, unless there is no demand. No BPO owner would wish their prices to be too low to allow for invention, the only case where this is possible is if the demand is less than the BPO supply. If this is true, the BPO owner is not making any money either, in which case they would be better off not building from their BPO at all, and inventing something else instead. The many reason people still build from their BPOs is just them being stubborn, not because they're actually worth building from. Everything is not supposed to be viable for invention, and indeed removal of those BPOs would still not mean invention was viable, since if the prices are low it usually indicates that there is another item type or NPC drop that is better, the item in question will never reach the price where it is worth inventing. The supply of said item will however dry up, so even people just using it because it was cheap, will have to move onto another item.
SunGod RA Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.12.30 16:12:00 - [51] talk about being late to the t2-bpo-whine party >.>
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Lord Fitz Capital loss is going to be a far bigger cost than invention materials if they were ever removed, by a huge factor. We are on the same page overall as far as T2 BPO's go - you just think that nothing should be done about them and I think they should be removed or invention boosted enough to make em almost obsolete or some in game way of getting one without counting current owners will to sell you one (my personal order of preference is invention boost > t2 bpo removal > ability to get t2 bpo without having to buy from other player). Now about capital loss. When bubble bursts someone ends up holding the bag. That is the nature of the market. One of the risks owning one. If there is so many other opportunities to invest capital in a lot better ways than T2 BPO as there is always pointed out then it would make more sense to go for that opportunity. Unless ofc it's just warm air and they are actually 'worth it'.
SunGod RA Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.12.30 21:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Carniflex I do not like hard lines between haves and have nots in computer game that can't be overcome by hard work and dedication of gamer. haha seriously, if you can't get current-t2-bpo-yearly-profit income without a t2 bpo, don't blame anyone but yourself. try spending less time arguing solved-2-years-ago non-issues with groundless emotional rhetorics, and more time doing market research, and you should be doing fine in no time!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.30 23:40:00 - [54] If you think they're worth owning, there is a simple solution. Buy one. If you think they are not worth owning, don't buy one. You can't have it both ways and think they are worth owning and not buy one, or you are just cheating yourself.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.31 06:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 31/12/2008 06:39:06 Originally by: Carniflex I do not like hard lines between haves and have nots in computer game that can't be overcome by hard work and dedication of gamer. I still don't get it. The above statement is clearly wrong with respect to T2 BPOs. You can work hard, earn tens of billions of isk, and buy the best T2 BPOs out there. T2 BPOs trade all the time. There's no "hard line" between T2 BPO holders and other players. In fact, as has been repeated pointed out, T2 BPO holders actually have a lower return on investment than you get with a bunch of other investment choices for the same isk. The thing that really steams me is that the people who want to get rid of T2 BPOs have no problem destroying years of somebody's effort just to get rid of some imaginary, and by all accounts. minor imbalance in the game. I don't think it's fair to those dedicated people who worked hard and are now deeply invested in high end content in the game.
F4LC0N	Posted - 2009.01.01 07:08:00 - [56] As a few stated yes in Theory you can compete or make more isk with Invention (even T1 BS BPO can make more isk then some t2 cruiser bpo's but they arent as cost effective) but you have to use 10 lab slots and 10 manufacturing slots while the bpo owner has to use 1. hm looks similar to Alchemy to me so if Invention is fine so is Alchemy. Actualy Alchemy is better cause you arent caped at 20 slots and isnt chance based but biggest difference is, it is bound to low sec and 0.0 and doesnt have that many variety as Invention.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.01.01 08:59:00 - [57] Originally by: F4LC0N As a few stated yes in Theory you can compete or make more isk with Invention (even T1 BS BPO can make more isk then some t2 cruiser bpo's but they arent as cost effective) but you have to use 10 lab slots and 10 manufacturing slots while the bpo owner has to use 1. hm looks similar to Alchemy to me so if Invention is fine so is Alchemy. Actualy Alchemy is better cause you arent caped at 20 slots and isnt chance based but biggest difference is, it is bound to low sec and 0.0 and doesnt have that many variety as Invention. You can use 30 build slots easily enough with just 1 account. The BPO owner has to use more than 1 slot if they build their own components. A build slot is fairly easy to get, given they effectively cost 10m/month per slot, you can scale that up easier than you can buy more BPOs.
F4LC0N	Posted - 2009.01.01 09:20:00 - [58] Yeah i know you can get more slots on your accaunt same with the bpo owner but in the end you still compete only with his 1 manufacturing slot while he can use the other manufacturing and lab slots to build, copy or reasearch something else.
PinkMonkey Dragon	Posted - 2009.01.01 10:54:00 - [59] first, let me get this out of the way... i am a tech 2 BPO owner. I did win it. It IS a good one. second, i invent like a mad-man. seriously, i have 10-20 (depending on the day) factories running ALL the time (never less than 10) with tech 2 goodies. NOW, onto the part that matters. NO WAY IN HELL should tech 2 bpos ever be removed--some have been already, banned characters, down accounts (i personaly know of 2 ships and 6 mods that are on characters that no longer play)... first, the BPO i own makes about 300 units a month.. it's still making about 7 mill a day (if i bust my ass and search for the best prices in 5 different regions, and play the penny game).. on the SAME mod, when i invent it.. i can make 18 mill a day or more.. if i use just ONE character to do it. SO, in reality, this type of BPO does not need take out of the game. inventors decide the price... (there are rumored to be about 20 of each tech 2 BPO). as for the other type of tech 2, the ones that inventors dont make ISK on (such as the em armor hardner, or 1600mm plates) there are several problems with the idea of removing them... first problem--you remove BPO's, and prices will go up... on the 1600mm plate, easily double.. possibly more. Second, the demand for datacores to make all the new ones will push the datacore prices up even higher (and they are high NOW)... resulting in ALL tech 2 costing significantly more (it's 60-80% of the build cost for some mods). i understand why inventors would complain about some mods not making isk.. but i've been inventing for .. well, since it came out.. years.. you do your research to find out what makes isk--you build spreadsheets... you check market info (if there's no BPO for it, MAKE IT--it will make money)... if it sells more units in jita than 20 BPO's can make... 90% chance it's worth inventing.. stay away from the things that dont make isk... let them have their low prices!! IF, someday, when TONS of new players come into the game, more of these items sell.. then they'll become worth inventing (look for price spikes--like assault frigates have had after FW). be smart--dont be stupid, and think just because you cant make isk inventing it, you should make other people suffer... i can tell you 25 differnt mods that make isk (ALL of them without a BPO, for instnace)... look for them! you'll be so busy making them you wont EVER worry about the rest. pinky.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.01 11:01:00 - [60] Originally by: F4LC0N Yeah i know you can get more slots on your accaunt same with the bpo owner but in the end you still compete only with his 1 manufacturing slot while he can use the other manufacturing and lab slots to build, copy or reasearch something else. Wrong, you compete with 1 of his slots using a BPO to build and 9 of his slots using invented BPC, against 10 of your slots Using invented BPC. So the difference is small. On the other hand he has several billions locked in 1 item for that partial (BPO vs BPC) slot advantage. Billions that you can use to pay for a second account with GTC, so getting another 3 character and relative slots to build/invent. With 10 billions (the cost of a mediocre T2 BPO) you can pay 16 months for a second account, so getting 30 extra inventing slots, 30 extra build slots, 15 extra agents giving datacores. Say again that the BPO give an advantage.

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