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Shaka Quatuic
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:23:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 28/01/2009 19:26:41
 Originally by: Niskin
So what you are saying is that you want them to put in a system that is very tedious to use, won't allow the user to find the cloaked ship but will allow them to land on the same grid and effectively do nothing once they get there? Seriously why?
because it would allow the application of psychological warfare against cloakers that are active and playing, and put the afk abusers at a level of risk commensurate with their abuse. there are tactics that can be used to try to damage a cloaker once hunters are on grid for instance. it's a bit trying, but bombers could potentially use bombs as a kind of ACW charge. a gang could mobilize drone dragging frigates to canvas a grid, forcing a cloaker to actually take an active interest in his own survival etc.
it's all about increasing the number of tactics and strategies, even forcing the development of new ones. besides... eve is full of tedious systems. mining.. exploration... skill training... what's one more? |
Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 20:12:00 -
[212]
The problem is that if you put that system in and it only affects non-covops cloaks then people will just leave the covops scout afk all day and log in the conventionals when a target presents itself. If a recon decloaks in your belt and tackles you as the other ships logon and warp to you the result will be that you are just as dead as you are with the current mechanics.
Just because people do it that way now doesn't mean removing that way will make you safer. It just means the current method is the easiest one to use. The problem you will run into is that the other ways aren't that much harder and so they will use them instead. |
Shaka Quatuic
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 21:41:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Niskin
The problem is that if you put that system in and it only affects non-covops cloaks then people will just leave the covops scout afk all day and log in the conventionals when a target presents itself. If a recon decloaks in your belt and tackles you as the other ships logon and warp to you the result will be that you are just as dead as you are with the current mechanics.
Just because people do it that way now doesn't mean removing that way will make you safer. It just means the current method is the easiest one to use. The problem you will run into is that the other ways aren't that much harder and so they will use them instead.
believe it or not I have no problem whatsoever with that tactic. it is not unlike the often depicted surprise attack in sci-fi where powered-down ships join an ambush, and could be used by both attacker and defender gangs (see... BALANCE). the gang would then be actually playing and not sitting online but afk for 23 hours. |
The Mute
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.29 00:31:00 -
[214]
Shaka, this really is not something that is broken or unbalanced in any way. If someone is afk then they can't hurt you. If someone is not afk then your chance of killing them is about the same their chance to kill you.
I personally would like to see a logout timer implemented, so that anyone afk, regardless of if they are cloaked or in a station gets logged out after a certain amount of time. This is not a critical feature though and even if implemented, would be easy enough to work around.
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Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.29 01:04:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Shaka Quatuic
believe it or not I have no problem whatsoever with that tactic. it is not unlike the often depicted surprise attack in sci-fi where powered-down ships join an ambush, and could be used by both attacker and defender gangs (see... BALANCE). the gang would then be actually playing and not sitting online but afk for 23 hours.
Well to be clear, in my scenario the recon would have been sitting afk and cloaked for an indeterminite amount of time before attacking, just like a conventional would. The only difference here is that the recon won't show up on scan on it's way in like the conventional would and it can lock faster because there's no scan res penalty.
Given the way you worded you previous post I'm not sure why the unlocatable AFK cloaker bothers you. You seem to be ok with being attacked by that person but not with them being in system and cloaked for whatever period of time. This is the part that doesn't make sense to me.
Previous posters made the argument that they should be able to scan down the cloaker to kill them so they could go solo mine safely or whatever. I see their point and disagree with it. If your point is simply that a mechanic that allows one to remain safe while in space is bad then I disagree with that too.
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foobarx
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Posted - 2009.01.29 01:20:00 -
[216]
If you have cloakers in your system, just move a few jumps to the next good place to mine. They can't be AFK cloaking everywhere. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.29 04:58:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Goumindong on 29/01/2009 04:59:05
Originally by: Niskin
If you live in 0.0 and you don't have combat characters ready and aren't alert the entire time you are probably going to die sooner or later anyway. If people want to be productive while semi-afk and solo then they need to own a much larger section of space and guard the chokepoints heavily so that the back systems can be used as quasi high sec. Even in that scenario you will probably still have issues with enemy Recons which is why people need to stop thinking that 0.0 can be like high sec.
You've never played in 0.0 have you? You cannot protect producers. It is neither profitable, nor is it feasible. There are no combat characters ready to fight on a production op because everyone is producing except the scout. Anyone who is not producing is a waste.
You do not need to control chokepoints because the time lost to ratting is less than the time lost by holding the chokes.
Originally by: The Mute
The solution is to fight back and stop wasting time crying on the forums. There are plenty of simple and imaginative ways to hunt, trick, bait and trap a single cloaking ship and none are more difficult then knocking down a POS.
Like what?
A ship is off grid and cloaked. How do you kill him? You're claiming there is an active solution that can be taken. I am claiming that there is not. You're making the positive claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Originally by: Niskin
The problem is that if you put that system in and it only affects non-covops cloaks then people will just leave the covops scout afk all day and log in the conventionals when a target presents itself.
1. There is no problem with scan probes being effective against cov-ops, you won't find them since they can warp off when you land. Ditto for bonused ships.
2. Conventionals take much more time to prep and offer defenders more warning for when they are incoming. There is a very noticeable indication as to when this type of trap is sprung.
3. logged out ships cannot move or scan.
Originally by: The Mute
Shaka, this really is not something that is broken or unbalanced in any way. If someone is afk then they can't hurt you. If someone is not afk then your chance of killing them is about the same their chance to kill you.
The first has been proven to be untrue, they increase your risk and so increase your cost.
The second is just plain dumb. You're saying that when you have the near sole ability to decide when to attack that you lose about as many fights as you win? That is just bad piloting
Originally by: Niskin
Previous posters made the argument that they should be able to scan down the cloaker to kill them so they could go solo mine safely or whatever. I see their point and disagree with it. If your point is simply that a mechanic that allows one to remain safe while in space is bad then I disagree with that too.
No, you do not understand the point. It is a cost/benefit issue with imposed costs (and therefore benefit for the cloaker) with no opportunity cost for the cloaking ship.
It works on both sides of the coin, a ratter can rat and cloak up whenever anyone enters local, thus ignoring all risks for being in unsafe space. If they put down infrastructure to keep them safe you can kill it(and it costs them money). But if they cloak, you can do nothing. |
Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.01.29 09:40:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Delks
I would like to see a method to actually scan and track down cloakers. They can make it expensive, skill intensive, and very time intensive, but there needs to be a way.
Being cloaked means being hidden. If a cloaker could be found, he is not hidden, thus not cloaked. EVE is a cruel game. End of story. |
Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.29 16:25:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 29/01/2009 04:59:05
Originally by: Niskin
If you live in 0.0 and you don't have combat characters ready and aren't alert the entire time you are probably going to die sooner or later anyway. If people want to be productive while semi-afk and solo then they need to own a much larger section of space and guard the chokepoints heavily so that the back systems can be used as quasi high sec. Even in that scenario you will probably still have issues with enemy Recons which is why people need to stop thinking that 0.0 can be like high sec.
You've never played in 0.0 have you? You cannot protect producers. It is neither profitable, nor is it feasible. There are no combat characters ready to fight on a production op because everyone is producing except the scout. Anyone who is not producing is a waste.
You do not need to control chokepoints because the time lost to ratting is less than the time lost by holding the chokes.
Yes I have played and lived in 0.0, first in Syndicate and then in Fountain. You can protect producers, it is feasible and it is not about profitability, it is about survival. I've been a part of mining ops my entire time in this game, starting in low sec and then in both regions listed above. It's pretty simple really, you have to think about it as a group as opposed to a bunch of individuals with the same corp or alliance tag.
To run a mining op you need scouts and overwatch, that's about it. People have to stop thinking about themselves long enough to think about their corp. If you need the ice to fuel the POS's or for carrier jumps or you need the mins to build ships to keep people in good hulls then you need the mining op to succeed. Everybody has an interest in seeing that happen so they work together to make it happen.
We did this successfully many times, the only time I remember it being near impossible to pull off was when our forums and Ventrilo were hacked by our enemy. Since you are in GS you may have some idea what I'm talking about, but if you don't you can ask Pandemic Legion about it.
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Niskin
Previous posters made the argument that they should be able to scan down the cloaker to kill them so they could go solo mine safely or whatever. I see their point and disagree with it. If your point is simply that a mechanic that allows one to remain safe while in space is bad then I disagree with that too.
No, you do not understand the point. It is a cost/benefit issue with imposed costs (and therefore benefit for the cloaker) with no opportunity cost for the cloaking ship.
It works on both sides of the coin, a ratter can rat and cloak up whenever anyone enters local, thus ignoring all risks for being in unsafe space. If they put down infrastructure to keep them safe you can kill it(and it costs them money). But if they cloak, you can do nothing.
Yes, ninja ratting is one of the mechanics that would be broken by a cloaking nerf, which is one of the reasons I'm against the nerf. We hunted cloaky isk farmers in Fountain when we lived there and I'm familiar with the challenges the cloak adds to hunting them. Even so we still killed many of them and other people who thought a cloak would save them. The cloak is not an IWIN button, but in the hands of a skilled pilot it adds great survivability in many situations. I don't think there's a problem with that.
-------------
I am the n00b that time forgot. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Dissonance Corp
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.01.29 16:36:00 -
[220]
As a guy who flies a prorator almost all of the time, I'm going to have to agree that there's no real effective way of weeding out a guy who wants to sit in a safespot and AFK cloak in your system all day. I think the solution lies in not nerfing cloaks though but adding specialized anti-cloak modules and equipment. Detecting and snaring a cloaker shouldn't be an easy thing that any pilot can do but be a specific role for someone to play for his corp/fleet.
1st would be a scan probe (specific anti-cloak or just regular, whatever) that can eventually find the general location of where a cloaked pilot is. 2nd would be an active module that can target nearby cloaked vessels but is extremely sensitive to transversal velocity so the cloakcatcher needs to closely match direction and speed to form a lock. Catches AFK cloakers like flies but makes hunting down an active, intelligent pilot very difficult. As it should be.
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The Mute
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.29 17:18:00 -
[221]
Quote:
Like what?
A ship is off grid and cloaked. How do you kill him? You're claiming there is an active solution that can be taken. I am claiming that there is not. You're making the positive claim, the burden of proof is on you.
If a ship is offgrid and cloaked he can't kill you either so no worries. If YOU want to kill him then make him come to you, fight him and kill him. It is possible.
Quote:
The first has been proven to be untrue, they increase your risk and so increase your cost.
The second is just plain dumb. You're saying that when you have the near sole ability to decide when to attack that you lose about as many fights as you win? That is just bad piloting
No one has proven cloaking to be unbalanced. Only people who don't like to fight have have argued that cloaking should be "fixed". If cloaking were unbalanced then we would see cloaked pvprs in every system from venal to Feythabolis, this isn't the case. You argue that risk and cost increase with someone in system and this is true but that in no way proves imbalance, it only proves that you are in 0.0.
Bad piloting aside, anytime a pilot uncloaks to attack there is risk. Kill a cloaker enough times or deny him kills, he will leave and your problem is solved. Solve your problem ingame rather then on the forums.
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Space Romantik
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Posted - 2009.01.29 18:26:00 -
[222]
Life is unfair.... get used to it.... |
Avion Saberis
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Posted - 2009.01.30 01:23:00 -
[223]
right....ummm this thread seems to be hitting many things and yet for some reason nothing at all. All i can say is those who cloak in null sec and go afk, thats there business. but when they attack then it's yours i guess.
Also mining in null sec isn't really that bad, beside the rats and of course the occanial allience fights, its actually safer then most low and high sec places. sure ya get the cloaking bastard from time to time, but hey, thats life. i've lost quite a few ships while mining in null, but really i didn't care. i expected that to happen. And having a gang to protect ya while mining is a good thing too.
So over all its not really the cloakers, but your inability to accept that null sec is much much harsher then you expected. oh well you fall, not mine. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.30 19:46:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Niskin
To run a mining op you need scouts and overwatch, that's about it.
So what you're saying is that you cannot protect mining ops and that "protecting them" is actually "having them run away".
So there is a cloaker sitting in local... You can either continue mining and risk getting killed, or you can not mine.
Quote:
The cloak is not an IWIN button, but in the hands of a skilled pilot it adds great survivability in many situations. I don't think there's a problem with that.
Cloaking adds great survivability in many situations even if you can be scanned down. Ships with cloaking bonuses are just as maneuverable as ever. Ships without cloaking bonuses cannot use it to hide perfectly. It only impacts ships that are
A: AFK
OR
B: Have had the tables turned in an ambush.
You can still cycle safe spots.
You can still sneak up on people.
You can still run gate camps.
You can still avoid detection from ships without probes...
You can still log off if you're not aggressed.
Originally by: The Mute
If a ship is offgrid and cloaked he can't kill you either so no worries. If YOU want to kill him then make him come to you, fight him and kill him. It is possible.
O.K. so i just use my magic powers to make him come to me then i fight him and kill him...
Engagement is SOLEY on the cloakers terms. There are costs for setting up bait but there is no cost for his actions and he can attack whenever he wants.
Quote:
No one has proven cloaking to be unbalanced. Only people who don't like to fight have have argued that cloaking should be "fixed". If cloaking were unbalanced then we would see cloaked pvprs in every system from venal to Feythabolis, this isn't the case. You argue that risk and cost increase with someone in system and this is true but that in no way proves imbalance, it only proves that you are in 0.0.
Bad piloting aside, anytime a pilot uncloaks to attack there is risk. Kill a cloaker enough times or deny him kills, he will leave and your problem is solved. Solve your problem ingame rather then on the forums.
I find it funny that I am here asking for a way to hunt down and kill ships and you're the one saying that I don't want a fight.
I also find it funny that you think I have the problems. Its actually the other way around, we are the ones exploiting the situation.
The issue is not that risk increases when someone is in system. The issue is that risk increases AT NO COST TO THE CLOAKER.
When someone flies a ship into a system they take risks being there and they impose risk on others they are hunting. When a cloaker goes they can impose the risk without any themselves. They can sit there making the enemies life harder at no cost.
The enemies life is harder because they do not know what will happen, the question of "will i be attacked?" is uncertain. The cloaker doesn't have to be doing anything for this to happen, they could be watching television in the other room, studying, throwing a party. Whatever. |
GateScout
|
Posted - 2009.01.30 20:10:00 -
[225]
1. Force cloaks to use some sort of fuel.
2. Allow cloakers to be probed down (albeit difficult).
Problem solved. Cloaks still work as intended, yet cannot be abused. |
Dors Venabily
|
Posted - 2009.01.30 20:14:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Mr QUE
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Probes won't pick up a cloaked ship.
In any case - this is a perfectly legitimate tactic.
The thing that is wrong here is your portrayal of the scenario.
If you don't do something every now and again - the game will log you out. So these guys can't be completely AFK. Even if you are just orbiting something - the game will log you out. So your presumption that these guys are not at their computers is fallacious.
Now, they may well be alt accounts where the guy goes in and checks his mail or his wallet or his skills now and again to keep the character active - but he is there and he does have to do that about every 20 minutes or he will probably get logged out.
I don't know the exact criteria and CCP probably doesn't want us to know - but I have multiple accounts and if I don't pay attention to them all - they usually get logged out on me. When that guy gets logged out - his screen won't show that he is logged out but he will disappear from local.
In any case, how do you actually know the guy is cloaked?
If he gets into the system and has a bunch of safe spots he could just warp back and forth between them. If you can't probe him down - then you don't know what he is. But just because you can't probe him down - does not mean he's a cloaker.
Even if you have been attacked by the guys and they are in cloaked ships - it doesn't mean someone else couldn't come along and attack your miners in uncloaked ships. So, since you need to be protecting your miners in 0.0 anyway - what's the problem? If you want to mine without an escort come up to high sec and let Concord do it.
well if you are losing conection when you don't do anything I would contact your ISP eve don't do that or look at your router and computer settings and config
I have fallen asleep for hours and am still loged on when I wake :)
This one time I got phone call I had to leave and behold i forgot i was ratting in 0.0. So I went to a party came back 7 hours later with my domi still sitting in 0.0 doing nothing but running reppers and richer from all the rats the drones killed till they got pulverised. So you don't have to do a dam thing and be logged in cloaked for hours and hours have lunch go out to see a movie and still be in system waiting for the one minute they drop guard and boom kill some poor ******* and go back Safe spot and walk away. If you have a good connection you computers don't hibernate you can be there from downtime to downtime. I tested this it how it is. So whoever gets loged out i know it ain't ccp. |
Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.30 21:57:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Niskin
To run a mining op you need scouts and overwatch, that's about it.
So what you're saying is that you cannot protect mining ops and that "protecting them" is actually "having them run away".
So there is a cloaker sitting in local... You can either continue mining and risk getting killed, or you can not mine.
No... I'm saying exactly what I said. You need scouts and overwatch. The scouts watch for hostiles coming from other systems and the overwatch sits in the belt and waits for the cloaker to show up. When the cloaker lands in your belt you fire up the EWAR and the weapons. If you are doing it right your miners may not even notice since they won't take any damage and may not even get locked.
-------------
I am the n00b that time forgot. |
The Mute
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.30 22:47:00 -
[228]
Edited by: The Mute on 30/01/2009 22:49:37
Quote:
Engagement is SOLEY on the cloakers terms. There are costs for setting up bait but there is no cost for his actions and he can attack whenever he wants.
I agree, this is why you use a cloak, this is what a cloak is for, cloaking.
It seems to me the same reasons you are saying cloaks are unfair are the exact reasons I think cloaks are working fine.
Just because a cloaker decloaks only when he wants to does not mean the fight is going to go his way.
I disagree with cloaks needing fueld or any other BS like that because it does not solve the real problem of people playing the game while afk. Sitting behind pos shields and sitting inside a station while afk are just as disruptive to active pilots as sitting cloaked afk. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 02:32:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Niskin
No... I'm saying exactly what I said. You need scouts and overwatch. The scouts watch for hostiles coming from other systems and the overwatch sits in the belt and waits for the cloaker to show up. When the cloaker lands in your belt you fire up the EWAR and the weapons. If you are doing it right your miners may not even notice since they won't take any damage and may not even get locked.
You're losing money you dummy. Every ship that you set as "overwatch" could instead be mining. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 02:35:00 -
[230]
Originally by: The Mute
I agree, this is why you use a cloak, this is what a cloak is for, cloaking.
It seems to me the same reasons you are saying cloaks are unfair are the exact reasons I think cloaks are working fine.
Just because a cloaker decloaks only when he wants to does not mean the fight is going to go his way.
I disagree with cloaks needing fueld or any other BS like that because it does not solve the real problem of people playing the game while afk. Sitting behind pos shields and sitting inside a station while afk are just as disruptive to active pilots as sitting cloaked afk.
So what you're saying is that cloaks are O.K. to be overpowered because they make you overpowerful?
And you're saying that you're a terrible pilot(because the ability to determine when you attack is a massive advantage and it should mean that you win most engagements unless you're terrible)
Also. There is no problem with POS and stations. You can kill POS and capture stations. They are massive investments that require time sinks to operate sitting in space in a single spot just waiting for you to attack them. |
Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 16:02:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Niskin
No... I'm saying exactly what I said. You need scouts and overwatch. The scouts watch for hostiles coming from other systems and the overwatch sits in the belt and waits for the cloaker to show up. When the cloaker lands in your belt you fire up the EWAR and the weapons. If you are doing it right your miners may not even notice since they won't take any damage and may not even get locked.
You're losing money you dummy. Every ship that you set as "overwatch" could instead be mining.
Or they could be a Hulk/Mackinac wreck... this is a thread about cloakers ganking people after all. When things are safe you mine at full efficiency, when they aren't you make adjustments to ensure security. In fact often I've found the overwatch team ends up being people who don't mine and just want to PvP and the miners are free bait. |
Niskin
Minmatar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 16:10:00 -
[232]
Edited by: Niskin on 31/01/2009 16:10:18
Originally by: Goumindong
And you're saying that you're a terrible pilot(because the ability to determine when you attack is a massive advantage and it should mean that you win most engagements unless you're terrible)
The ability to choose when to attack is not an offensive advantage, it's a defensive advantage. It allows the person to survive until they find an attractive offensive opportunity. The cloak is actually an offensive penalty because the scan res hit makes it harder to get a point in quickly when you land.
Originally by: Goumindong
Also. There is no problem with POS and stations. You can kill POS and capture stations. They are massive investments that require time sinks to operate sitting in space in a single spot just waiting for you to attack them.
It's far easier to kill a cloaker when he lands in your belt than it is to pop POS's, put up your own, claim sov and take a station. |
Vasili Z
Foundation
Sons of Tangra
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 16:13:00 -
[233]
Originally by: FireT
This man speak truth. I mean you are in 0.0, you should have risks.
This man speaks the truth. I mean that guy afk for 10 hours cloaked in his rapier is at a great risk himself because it's possible to kill his ship while he's logged on in an enemy system not doing anything in one spot for hours on end? Get it? |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 17:50:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Niskin
The ability to choose when to attack is not an offensive advantage, it's a defensive advantage. It allows the person to survive until they find an attractive offensive opportunity. The cloak is actually an offensive penalty because the scan res hit makes it harder to get a point in quickly when you land.
The ability to choose when to attack is not an offensive advantage...
That is one i've never heard before.
Quote:
It's far easier to kill a cloaker when he lands in your belt than it is to pop POS's, put up your own, claim sov and take a station.
"when he lands in your belt". Since you can't make him land in your belt and since you are spending money in order to ensure he does not this is quite false.
It is indeed easier to kill POS, put up your own and take a station than it is to kill cloaking ships. |
El Kaposo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 18:49:00 -
[235]
this topic has come and gone many times on the forum.
i think its true that an afk player shouldn't be able to waste player's time, who actually do play.
boring mining escort for hours, while the enemy is out in a movie? thats just lame.
at the least the cloak should need to be re-activated after a set timer expires. afking without breaking the eula by using macros and such will be a thing of the past.
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The Mute
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 19:12:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: The Mute
I agree, this is why you use a cloak, this is what a cloak is for, cloaking.
It seems to me the same reasons you are saying cloaks are unfair are the exact reasons I think cloaks are working fine.
Just because a cloaker decloaks only when he wants to does not mean the fight is going to go his way.
I disagree with cloaks needing fueld or any other BS like that because it does not solve the real problem of people playing the game while afk. Sitting behind pos shields and sitting inside a station while afk are just as disruptive to active pilots as sitting cloaked afk.
So what you're saying is that cloaks are O.K. to be overpowered because they make you overpowerful?
And you're saying that you're a terrible pilot(because the ability to determine when you attack is a massive advantage and it should mean that you win most engagements unless you're terrible)
Also. There is no problem with POS and stations. You can kill POS and capture stations. They are massive investments that require time sinks to operate sitting in space in a single spot just waiting for you to attack them.
Not all stations can be captured and not all corps are capable of killing POS. AFKrs in stations and POS are a bigger problem then Cloakers.
And yes, I'm obviously a terrible pilot because I disagree with you.
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[green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you wo |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.01.31 19:57:00 -
[237]
Originally by: The Mute
Not all stations can be captured and not all corps are capable of killing POS. AFKrs in stations and POS are a bigger problem then Cloakers.
And yes, I'm obviously a terrible pilot because I disagree with you.
No, i said you were a terrible pilot because you said that you have a 50/50 chance to die when you decloak to attack.
Any station that cannot be captured can be docked at and scouted.
Whether or not everyone can take down a POS is immaterial. |
The Mute
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2009.02.01 00:28:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Goumindong
No, i said you were a terrible pilot because you said that you have a 50/50 chance to die when you decloak to attack.
I said once someone uncloaks then the fight is just like any other, with either side having a chance of winning or losing. The uncloaking pilot tends to have the advantage because he chooses the time and place to attack but in truth it is easy and possible to trap an uncloaking pilot and kill him. Anytime you uncloak to attack you are taking a risk.
Originally by: Goumindong
Any station that cannot be captured can be docked at and scouted.
Under this logic, any system with a cloaked hostile in it can be scouted. The fact remains that if someone goes afk in a station you have no way of know if they are truly afk. Same for POS.
Originally by: Goumindong
Whether or not everyone can take down a POS is immaterial.
Again, because not everyone knows how or is willing to fight against cloakers does not mean they are overpowered. Because you can't fight against cloakers is immaterial, others can and do just fine.
I could cry that POS are overpowered because can't take em down solo. It's true that (most) POS I cant take down solo but that does not make my assumption that POS are overpowered true as well.
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Mr Pope
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Posted - 2009.02.01 03:20:00 -
[239]
Originally by: GateScout
1. Force cloaks to use some sort of fuel.
2. Allow cloakers to be probed down (albeit difficult).
Problem solved. Cloaks still work as intended, yet cannot be abused.
Maybe when there is a way to abuse cloaking we can look into this, as for now, everything is working as intended, get over it. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.01 04:37:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Goumindong on 01/02/2009 04:45:35
Originally by: The Mute
I said once someone uncloaks then the fight is just like any other, with either side having a chance of winning or losing. The uncloaking pilot tends to have the advantage because he chooses the time and place to attack but in truth it is easy and possible to trap an uncloaking pilot and kill him. Anytime you uncloak to attack you are taking a risk.
And the risk is? If you're not getting any advantage out of your cloak you really are a terrible pilot.
Quote:
Under this logic, any system with a cloaked hostile in it can be scouted. The fact remains that if someone goes afk in a station you have no way of know if they are truly afk. Same for POS.
You can locate someone sitting in a station that you can dock at. You cannot locate someone who is cloaked. If you can dock at the station, you can also use it to defend yourself as the other does.
Quote:
Again, because not everyone knows how or is willing to fight against cloakers does not mean they are overpowered. Because you can't fight against cloakers is immaterial, others can and do just fine.
I could cry that POS are overpowered because can't take em down solo. It's true that (most) POS I cant take down solo but that does not make my assumption that POS are overpowered true as well.
No because others cannot. You cannot. You say you can, but you're lying. If there were some method to do so, either everyone would have figured it out, or you would simply tell us. The method does not exist, you cannot get rid of a cloaked ship or ships in any space unless they want to fight.
Anything you do in that space has to account for the increased risk(and therefore cost) associated with acting near hostiles. The hostiles themselves take no risk and do not even have any costs for themselves(since they can get that increased risk to you when they are not even playing eve)
If you want to take down a POS its sitting there waiting for you. Its an expensive asset sitting in space waiting for people to come destroy it. Its an asset that requires constant attention to continue to use. It requires hours to set up where you are otherwise vulnerable. To compare a POS to cloaking is completely and utterly disingenuous.
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edit: for instance what is the cost of setting up a bait for a cloaker. You need to have sufficient force to kill him so you need at least bait + 1 ship(preferably cloaked).
Your group, since they do not determine when the attack comes, must be ready the entire time. So, assuming you have 8 hours to do so your cost is 16 man hours. Now, if he doesn't attack, all your time goes to waste. If he does attack, his cost is x man hours, where x is the amount of time it took him to find your bait. So unless it takes him 16 hours to find you AND he attacks AND he doesn't get away. You're way in the hole in terms of cost.
There is much to much disproportionate costs when dealing with cloaked ships. |
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