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Gohuns Solder	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:04:00 - [1] Edited by: Gohuns Solder on 30/12/2008 20:05:34 am I the only one that thinks it messed up that people DONT get agression to other players for salvaging there wreck? example, I run a lvl 4 mission in highsec, someone warps in in a rigged catalyst and salvages my wrecks, I open fire on him for stealing part of my loot, <salvage that can build rigs for sell or for personal ships> and I get concorded, yet if I steal a civilian gatling gun from someone they have all right in the world to open fire on me
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:06:00 - [2] Originally by: Gohuns Solder am I the only one that thinks it ******ed that people DONT get agression to other players for salvaging there wreck? Yes. Yes, you are. (This is me, pretending to be Chribba, and responding to a thread that called out to me in my dream state.) We're Recruiting!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:39:00 - [3] Quote: <salvage that can build rigs for sell or for personal ships> No, sorry. Wrecks can be salvaged for useful parts but it's not yours. Also, this particular MR posted with his main. It's unfortunate that his first experience was with a fat, drunken ninja. If someone would be so kind as to drop a locater agent on him, I would love to demonstrate how a real ninja does things. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Citlalli Malus Factum	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:55:00 - [4] Honestly the problem isn't so much whether or not salvaging should give an aggression countdown or not... Mostly the issue is just that these two facts seem VERY inconsistent: 1. Looting "yellow wrecks" results in an aggression countdown. 2. Salvaging "yellow wrecks" DOES NOT result in an aggression countdown. Honestly it could be one or the other, wouldn't really matter; it's just that the current setup isn't consistent. Especially when you consider the fact that, especially on the really weak frigate or cruiser rats you often find in missions, the salvage is -more valuable- than the loot.
Tarynn Dahhn	Posted - 2008.12.30 20:59:00 - [5] Originally by: Citlalli Honestly it could be one or the other, wouldn't really matter; it's just that the current setup isn't consistent. It's very consistent. Looting gives aggro, salvaging does not. If you do many different types of Missions, you'll also note that some Missions have loot which outweighs salvage in value, and in others, it's reversed. Regardless, there is a consistency, when you consider that any fool can loot, while only those who train can salvage.
Citlalli Malus Factum	Posted - 2008.12.30 21:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Tarynn Dahhn Originally by: Citlalli Honestly it could be one or the other, wouldn't really matter; it's just that the current setup isn't consistent. It's very consistent. Looting gives aggro, salvaging does not. If you do many different types of Missions, you'll also note that some Missions have loot which outweighs salvage in value, and in others, it's reversed. Regardless, there is a consistency, when you consider that any fool can loot, while only those who train can salvage. By that logic, CONCORD should only respond if the aggressor's ship is T1 fitted. Because, of course, if you train up skills to do something then that's totally different than if you do something as a noob.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.30 22:16:00 - [7] Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.30 22:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Citlalli Mostly the issue is just that these two facts seem VERY inconsistent: 1. Looting "yellow wrecks" results in an aggression countdown. 2. Salvaging "yellow wrecks" DOES NOT result in an aggression countdown. Mostly the issue is just that these two facts seem VERY inconsistent: 1. "Jumping" on Earth results in you falling back down. 2. "Jumping" in space DOES NOT result in you falling back down. OH MY GOD! Gravity is an exploit and should be fixed! Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Bob Ghias	Posted - 2008.12.31 09:54:00 - [9] just have two characters and salvage as you go......problem solved or: i. blow up the wreck sas the sneaky ninja approaches ii. warp out and leave them the agro
Dedalus77 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.31 15:31:00 - [10] It all comes down to ownership. For some reason mission runners assume that they own the wreck just because they own the loot. This is not accurate. The wreck is still owned by the NPC faction (just look to see who the owner corp is when you click on the wreck). Since mission runners don't own the wreck I am not sure why they think they should get aggro.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.10 06:16:00 - [11] Just cuz you blew it up doesn't necessarily bestow salvage rights... I think ownership of loot should be temporary as well.. something like 10 or 15 minutes after which it's concidered "abandoned" and becomes fair game without accruing kill rights.
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.01.10 14:51:00 - [12] you seem to have an entitlement issue
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.11 02:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Lady Katrana you seem to have an entitlement issue Hi. My name's Tchell, and I have a entitlement issues. Originally by: Salvaging Anonymous Hi, Tchell! So, it's been two hours since I last warped in on a Mission Runner, and salvaged all of the wrecks. The smack he spit at me in local made me feel really, really good. (Seriously - I have entitlement issues. Those wrecks in space? They're mine, if you're too slow.) We're Recruiting!
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2009.01.11 02:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Gohuns Solder am I the only one that thinks it ****ed that people DONT get agression to other players for salvaging there wreck? Yes. Yes, you are. (This is me, pretending to be Chribba, and responding to a thread that called out to me in my dream state.) wow, lol your so lucky OP, you got the main person who promotes stealing your salvage, and actually has a corp who's main function is stealing other's salvage oh and no, your not alone, many a carebear/mission runners have come to these forums with the EXACT same question as you guess what? get over it, CCP isnt going to change it, just like they still allow suicide ganks sorry, welcome to eve btw Originally by:** soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.01.11 04:20:00 - [15] OK ... it's like this ... You can't loot other peoples wrecks without getting flagged to them but you can salvage their wrecks without getting flagged for the exact same reason you can shoot through rocks - because that is how the developers programmed the game. No - you are not all alone in thinking that this shouldn't be - although I for one do not care one way or the other. However - the people who assume that the wrecks are theirs have good reason to think so, thus all the people sneering at them have no reason to sneer (not that anyone in EVE requires a reason to sneer at another player ...). 1) Wrecks that are not yours to loot from are yellow 2) Wrecks that are yours to loot from are white. 3) Wrecks that are yours to tractor are white 4) Wrecks that are not yours to tractor are yellow Thus, it is a natural progression of one's thoughts - even if it is wrong - to think that the same rules apply to salvage. If the contents of the wreck - the loot - become YOURS (as anyone taking them will see in the warning message) then it is logical to assume that the wreck itself is YOURS. If just isn't. The thing is - when the OP chose to open fire on the guy salvaging his wreck - he should have gotten a warning that he was about to commit an act which Concord would punish him for. Any time you see that message - you proceed at your own risk. Now ... as to those quotes so handily trotted out from CCP personnel ... Those posts, are extremely disingenuous in implying that the salvage was of scant value. If it was of scant value - then you wouldn't have entire corporations dedicated to probing down mission runners and salvaging the wrecks they'd created. Scant value or not though - those are accurate statements of the rules. All in all, you seem to have two types of people posting on this issue - one, the outraged mission runners who are offended at what they see to be an inconsistency (as well they might - regardless of the fact that this doesn't matter) and the Ninja Salvagers who seem awfully defensive about what they're doing. Of course maybe they're defensive about it because they're always being attacked (at least verbally) by the mission runners that destroyed the wrecks they're salvaging. shrug One other thing to note, is that this is a complex game and there are a number of other issues where what would seem to be the case because of the way one thing works - doesn't mean it works that way for something very similar. The effects of the Survey Skill come to mind. Now - if you don't want other people salvaging the wrecks you generated - then: 1) don't run missions in crowded systems. 2) Read the guides to Ninja Salvaging that some of the posters in this thread have written. Those guides are very good at describing how they do what they do - but also - at letting you know how the process works - so you can keep them from doing it to you. Also, shooting at them is usually a very bad idea. Besides the reaction from Concord - even if they take your loot - most of them would just freaking LOVE for you to shoot at them so they can blow your expensive mission ship up as well. If they didn't want you to do that - they wouldn't have taken the loot. IRL - the statute of limitations on theft is measured in years. In EVE it is measured in minutes - and YOU are the only one who can do anything about it - the police don't care. That should tell you something about the developers attitude towards pirates. EVE is an intentionally harsh game where the developers want the players to virtually rob, cheat and murder each other. If another player cons you out of a fortune - that is part of the game and the GM's will do nothing about it. The fact that you spent weeks if not months of your real life building up that fortune by playing this game means - nothing.
Sagacious Z	Posted - 2009.01.11 04:34:00 - [16] The game's rules on wreck ownership are brilliant. It allows a lesser skilled player to do something to make ISK, and causes others to be irate and angry, which is perfect, as that could lead to one attacking the other, and player interaction is what games are all about. Instead of a possible fight, it could also lead to a newfound partnership where one player rats and one player salvages. Wreck ownership (or lack of) is as perfect as it gets regarding game rules.
engimonger	Posted - 2009.01.11 04:36:00 - [17] If you can't beat them - and you won't with the position CCP has taken - then join 'em. Learn how to ninja salvage yourself so at least you understand the issue from the other perspective. If nothing else, you might learn that it isn't quite as easy as it may look. And you'll definitely learn what you can do, and can't do, to make it harder on the ninja's. Personally, I found it to be a relatively safe way to learn use of the scanner and probes. Skills that have served me well in PvP and Exploration - both of which I find to be much more fun and profitable than ninja salvaging. I must admit that I do owe a debt of gratitude to TEARS. One of their members taught me a very valuable, if not costly, lesson on aggression mechanics - that has saved me quite a few other ships.
Akira Na'Reece Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:29:00 - [18] Edited by: Akira Na''Reece on 12/01/2009 16:30:35 Edited by: Akira Na''Reece for noobisms, on 12/01/2009 16:30:03 For what it's worth, I tend to just burn through missions anyhow, I take my loot, but in most cases don't bother to salvage. In those circumstances, I wouldn't care if someone warped in to salvage what i wasn't. "I'm gonna love you, ...and hug you, ...and call you George, ...George.
Yalezorn Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 18:18:00 - [19] I'm a mission runner and I support anyone being able to salvage anything. Particularly when someone goes to the trouble of scanning me down, and sitting in the mission waiting for me to kill stuff, while I leave and go to the bank and the store, in an effort to waste as much of their time as possible =D
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.12 22:19:00 - [20] Originally by: engimonger If you can't beat them - and you won't with the position CCP has taken - then join 'em. Learn how to ninja salvage yourself so at least you understand the issue from the other perspective. If nothing else, you might learn that it isn't quite as easy as it may look. And you'll definitely learn what you can do, and can't do, to make it harder on the ninja's. Personally, I found it to be a relatively safe way to learn use of the scanner and probes. Skills that have served me well in PvP and Exploration - both of which I find to be much more fun and profitable than ninja salvaging. I must admit that I do owe a debt of gratitude to TEARS. One of their members taught me a very valuable, if not costly, lesson on aggression mechanics - that has saved me quite a few other ships. This is an excellent attitude. The reason I first tried ninja salvaging, in fact, was to learn about probing, a skill that has served me well in PVP and PVE since then. Trying to do what your enemies are doing is always an excellent way of learning how to beat them. .............
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.12 22:35:00 - [21] I think they should change it so that loot can be taken without an agression timer as well. I'm going to make lots of angry posts about it because I think it's right and it suits me so it must be right and everyone else is stupid.
Transmit Failure	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:56:00 - [22] Edited by: Transmit Failure on 13/01/2009 22:57:39 Most of these arguments are essentially saying "Uh, that's the way it is, newb" in so many words. For example, one said "Well the NPC corp still owns the wreck, not the player killed the npc." Well yeah. What if CCP arranged it so the wreck belongs to the corp of the player who killed the rat? What I mean to say is that these sorts of arguments are simply restating facts rather than making a case for how things ought to be. It's the same thing as responding to the statement that "drugs should be legalized" with "yeah but they are illegal, moron." I'm not taking sides in this argument. I just wanted to point out that the people who think its okay to loot wrecks that another player created are not especially persuasive.
Sagacious Z Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Transmit Failure Most of these arguments are essentially saying "Uh, that's the way it is, newb" in so many words. My argument didn't, and most of the others didn't either. The game designers have wreck ownership rules perfect since it encourages player interaction (fights, friendships, partnerships) and makes decision making important (e.g., do I fit a salvager on this high slot or a missile bay), taking into account time/reward ratio of time salvaging/value salvaged versus the time of leaving wrecks and running another mission or do more ratting. The game designers want us to face decisions, and want player interaction (such as partnerships or fights). Originally by: Transmit Failure I just wanted to point out that the people who think its okay to loot wrecks that another player created are not especially persuasive. First, it is SALVAGE wrecks, not "loot wrecks", as looting is stealing and you will get flagged. Second, re "persuasive", just read what I wrote above and you should feel warm and fuzzy about the rules, and you will have a complete change of attitude, as you realize the game designes are working hard to create rules that make sense (and wreck rules make perfect sense).
Vincent Death Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Transmit Failure What I mean to say is that these sorts of arguments are simply restating facts rather than making a case for how things ought to be. It's the same thing as responding to the statement that "drugs should be legalized" with "yeah but they are illegal, moron." Maybe because no-one can really be bothered to come up with an eloquent defense of salvage-based-chicanery in this, the 1,000th thread complaining about it. We ALL know that CCP allows it. Whether it is a nice thing to do is completely irrelevant, if people can do it they will do it. If you have a better idea for how salvaging should operate, post a well structured proposal in Features & Ideas. Whine threads are not, I'm guessing, the places CCP looks for inspiration. The proper name for a social system based on political freedom is capitalism.
Crussoin	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:53:00 - [25] Edited by: Crussoin on 02/02/2009 01:53:56 There's an entire universe out there in 0.4 and below where you can fire on those awful salvagers to your heart's content. The real problem is that high security space is the galactic teat of excessive profits for risk-free activities. People suckling at said teat are babies who have no right to complain.
Sagacious Z Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:07:00 - [26] Edited by: Sagacious Z on 02/02/2009 02:14:10 Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 just like they still allow suicide ganks Thank your lucky stars you are not a game designer but a game player. Nobody would buy your game! In "soldieroffortune 258's" game, there would be no player interaction. No suicide ganks, no salvaging. We all just sit in space and chat with each other. Or, we could stay in station and fiddle with all the items in our hangar. Did you read post #7? Those are the game designers talking. You see, unlike you, talented MMOG game designers put in mechanics that encourage player interaction! CCP could not make the salvage rules/wreck rules any more perfect. If the killer "owned the wreck", most wrecks would just sit in space as the killer goes off to run another mission or do more ratting. The would be salvager has one less thing to do. If you "take away things to do", then gamers start having fewer reason to play the game, get it? If you take away player interaction, and having wrecks "owned by the killer", you would reduce player interaction and you no longer have a MMOG but a solo player game. The current wreck rules encourage partnerships. It also encourages potential fights. This is exactly why the game developers have the wreck rules the way they are--the rules encourage player interaction. Your whining says you want less player interaction. I take it you would rather play against the computer AI than against real live people. If so, EVE is not for you. If that is not so, you don't have the slightest idea what an MMOG is all about. Salvaging is one of the first things that a new player can do that involves making a few ISK along with doing something that is not NPC related. It is often their first potential interaction with fellow players (a partnership or fight). Don't you think that the game developers know this and this is why the rules are the way they are? Don't you think the game designers want most game mechanics to potentially involve player interaction? You whiners fail to read all these threads. It has been clearly explained before an incredible number of times, most of you have been on these threads before and have read the solid reason why the rules are they way they are, but you fail to give any solid reason why the rule does not make sense. The reason is you can't. The reason is you would prove that you do not want player interaction, but you would prefer if there were not other real people to play with and play against, but you desire solo play against computer AI. You could stick a salvager on that ship instead of that final missile bay or gun/laser, but you didn't. Oh, ... now you are going to say "but I was going to come back later and salvage them." Bullcrap. If you felt your time/reward ratio was better going off ratting or doing another mission and that's why you don't have a salvager(s) fitted on on your ship, you would be doing a mission later or ratting later and never would come back to salvage, so don't give us that crap. Barbara in post #11 has a brilliant idea. Loot should have a time limit and then after expiration, follow the same rules that wrecks do. There would be a massive increase in people in space doing something, forging potential partnerships or potential enemies. I hope CCP sees how perfect they have the wreck rules and decide to take up Barbara's suggestion, as that would encourage even greater player interaction than what we currently have. PLEASE. All you whiners about wreck rules, you are self-centered and show you care nothing about the game. If you really liked EVE, you would support rules that encourage player interaction, both fights and friendships. Your selfish hermit style "let me play all by myself" attitude sickens me and all the other players who prefer to play a MMOG with player interaction instead of a game for solo play.
spud maur Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:55:00 - [27] this seems to hapen a lot in penigrman <-spelling? and it is realy anoying even more so if teh mission is big where u can make a nice killing on the salvage
Dictum Factum Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:10:00 - [28] Originally by: spud maur this seems to hapen a lot in penigrman <-spelling? and it is realy anoying even more so if teh mission is big where u can make a nice killing on the salvage Good thing that you salvage as you go and thus it is not a problem for you, right?
Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:31:00 - [29] Well, I worked out a way out after I've been ninjad like 3 times... Firstly - I always carry a salvager and a tractor when running missions. Secondly - If I see a ninja warping in, I fire rounds at any wrecks he aproaches. 1 round = 1 wreck down. Thirdly - Sometimes you can see a bit noobish ninjas, they stay there and fly around and salvage... Go close to them and... Warp out. Usually before they notice they are in small, tiny bits because of npc aggro. Unfortunetally that only applies to noob ninjas. Lastly - Very often a mission has a trigger ship that allows you to finish and get the "objective complete" info. When you blow that one up, leave 1 npc behind when you warp out. That will assure you that if ANYONE warps out while you'r warping back to the station, the npc will aggro him. Thanks to that the ninja will, without doubt, not enter the location untill you are undocked. And because he has 1 salvager, maybe two... And you in your dessie got 4 salvagers and 4 tractors, and you don't have to go to your wrecks - you will salvage 10x more than he will. Thanks to those points I didn't get a ninja in my missions for quite a long time now.
Dedalus77 Junkyard Dogs	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Dr Karsun Well, I worked out a way out after I've been ninjad like 3 times... Firstly - I always carry a salvager and a tractor when running missions. Secondly - If I see a ninja warping in, I fire rounds at any wrecks he aproaches. 1 round = 1 wreck down. Thirdly - Sometimes you can see a bit noobish ninjas, they stay there and fly around and salvage... Go close to them and... Warp out. Usually before they notice they are in small, tiny bits because of npc aggro. Unfortunetally that only applies to noob ninjas. Lastly - Very often a mission has a trigger ship that allows you to finish and get the "objective complete" info. When you blow that one up, leave 1 npc behind when you warp out. That will assure you that if ANYONE warps out while you'r warping back to the station, the npc will aggro him. Thanks to that the ninja will, without doubt, not enter the location untill you are undocked. And because he has 1 salvager, maybe two... And you in your dessie got 4 salvagers and 4 tractors, and you don't have to go to your wrecks - you will salvage 10x more than he will. Thanks to those points I didn't get a ninja in my missions for quite a long time now. 1. Awesome - a mission runner who gets it. 2. I find this practice amusing and somewhat bizzare, if you aren't going to take the wreck, why do you care if I do? 3. Very, very noob ninjas, in fact, are any ninjas that oblivious to their surroundings that this works? If so, you are shaming the ninja name. 4. By all means, please please use your tractors to pull those wrecks closer...to me since I am orbiting you and salvaging those tractored wrecks faster than you thanks to my awesome ninja skills. I will say this Dr. Karsun, at least you are being proactive in trying to "combat" ninja salvaging instead of whining about it, I wish all mission runners took your approach.

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