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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.12.31 16:58:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Venkul Mul
So if you are on par with a fully trained PvPer you are allowed to mine in 0.0 and pay the relative refining tax.
0.0 alliances need people to fight first and foremost. Some fighters might mine to pay the bills, others might rat. Either way it is pvpers that are valued.
There isn't much need for industry or miners otherwise in 0.0. Most stuff is built in empire and hauled into 0.0. Less risk and just takes a few alts. All that is really needed is maybe one decent industry alt with refine skills per corp plus a few haulers to keep the moon mining going. Maybe an ice miner or two with some alts to help with pos fuel.
There might be room in an alliance to have maybe 1% of players dedicated industry. Anything over that may as well be in alt corps in empire. Even that 1% will likely be asked to have some role in pvp. Otherwise industry folks in 0.0 are typically a liability.
It doesn't make sense to have serious industry in 0.0. Even supercap ship production only take a few people to run. The pvpers generally lose isk protecting industry folks who lose ships and assets in the most ingenious ways possible. Then the pvp folks need to ask for a replacement where they likely won't get much of a discount. Then the industry folks make isk from their mining activities and selling it to the pvpers.
From the pvp perspective, this is a net loss, while for industry it is a net gain. Much easier for a pvper to buy stuff in Jita.
Isk can be made in 0.0. For example for a dedicated ice miner can make some isk in a quiet system. However they'll be expected to sell the ice to the corp at a deep discount compared to Jita. This runs the pos they'll be based out of and makes it worth it for the corp to support their activities. The ice miner gets a quiet system but must watch local as if they're tackled no one is going to help.
The core issue is that empire pays too well for missions and mining. It makes sense to make isk and products in empire. There isn't anything compelling to drive masses of players to 0.0. There isn't anything where a miner must sell ice at 50% of Jita to alliance but mine 10x faster. The risk versus rewards aren't balanced.
Not only are industry folks impacted. Many pvpers fund themselves using mission empire runners.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.12.31 20:33:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris
miner's are, somehow, a net loss to corps in 0.0 is totally false. ... PvP is NOT a viable income source. ... miners needing protection and PvPer's needing the minerals/ISK to replace and/or upgrade their ships. Corps make good money running mining op's, not running wars.
There is a loss of morale and purpose with a heavy industry ratio. The losses on the killboard suck morale. The tensions about differing objectives isn't worth it.
Then you get into the complaints where industry folks complain about having to pay refine tax, corp tax, then sell stuff to the corp at a discount. Industry folks make isk doing their jobs, pvp folks lose isk doing theirs. Then you get the tension where pvpers are fighting a war, losing isk, while the industry side is busy making personal isk.
Most alliances have found that much industry simply isn't worth it. What little isk to be gained is best done by moving industry people into renter corps. No one cares if the renters get popped. No one cares if renters mine during a war. Just as long as the rent is paid when due.
Ultimately the only protection that a pvp group can offer industry is advanced notice of incoming hostiles and maybe a pos to safe up in. It just doesn't make sense to have a pvp group on standby to protect a mining operation.
The difference is attitude. Most pvpers see themselves as doing what needs to be done. Fighting is the first priority. Then maybe ratting/mining to pay those builds. Making isk for the idea of making isk isn't much of a priority.
So most pvpers rat. Maybe a small ship alt out on a roam while the cap ship pilot rats. They use this isk to buy stuff in Jita. Some stuff might be available from the corp for a discount (battleships built from reprocessed rat loot or caps built in low sec). Ratting is taxed. More isk for a corp. Most mining activity with the exception of ice mining avoids corp taxes.
We're left in a situation that for good or bad the industry half of the house is sidelined.
Originally by: Rothgar Detris
I do think that the whole mining area needs a serious overhaul. ...think they need to regenerate fields more than twice a week.
Agreed about the overhaul, but I think that mining and mission running in empire needs to be seriously toned down.
In 0.0 the good ratting spots are a limited commodity. Mission running/mining is safer and until recently hasn't had the pinch of limited availability.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.01.01 03:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ironshirt
Just because you might enjoy PVP in 0.0 doesn't mean everyone does. Leave them to play the way they WANT TO.
The issue is that there isn't much of a balance of trade between 0.0 and high sec. There isn't much of a reason for folks to go to 0.0, and 0.0 doesn't need much industry in 0.0.
Effective empire is the production line and 0.0 the playground. No compelling reason to mix the two.
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