EVE Search - Let's whine about projectiles! (serious post)

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Let's whine about projectiles! (serious post)

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Darkstar Deceiver	Posted - 2009.01.03 04:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Darkstar Deceiver on 03/01/2009 04:22:39 Projectiles have a problem. They have a terrible optimal when using close range ammunition, so you always have to fight in fall-off. Also, even our long range T2 ammo - barrage - only gives a boost to falloff, not optimal. While autocannons are, for the most part, good weapons, they fail to deliver on the long range part of the scale. Even Null, the Gallente blaster long range ammo, has a bonus to range. Yes, I am aware that barrage has a 1.5x falloff modifier and a 0 range modifier, while Null has a 1.25x falloff modifier and a 1.25x range modifier. What I am suggesting is that we change barrage to be more like null. Here is an example: 800mm Repeating Artillery II - 16km falloff, 4800m optimal, 3.234 x damage modifier, 7.88 second ROF, 0.0432 rad/sec tracking. Neutron Blaster Cannon II - 10km falloff, 7200m optimal, 4.2x damage modifier, 7.88 second ROF, 0.0433 rad/sec tracking. Why does the blaster, which is supposed to be the lowest range gun in the game, have a higher optimal than a 800mm Repeating Artillery II. In the description of the the Neutron Blaster Cannon II, it specifically says "it also has the worst range of all turrets. ". The 800mm Repeating Artillery II's description states that the weapon is a "A single barrel, long-range, powerful cannon capable of causing tremendous damage. ". Wouldn't you think that a "long range weapon" would have a better optimal than the "worst ranged turret in the game". Mega pulse just blows both of these guns out of the water: Mega Pulse Laser II - 8000m falloff, 24km optimal, 3.6x damage modifier, 7.88 second ROF, .03375 rad/sec tracking. Mega Pulse is the only gun that does exactly what it was intended to do, I quote the in game description "A super-heavy pulse laser designed for medium range engagements. ". The keyword being medium. Since the autocannon has the worst base damage modifier, and the worse base optimal, wouldn't you think that it is due for a little boost? I, for one, am sick of having 25-40% of my shots miss because I always have to fight in falloff. Oh yeah, everyone knows that large artillery is ****ed majorly, so I'm not even going to bother to run the numbers on that. I mean, when the only thing you can hit with a 1400mm gun is a sieged dread, you know you have a problem. Especially since the long range ammo has a 0.25x tracking multiplier (wtf?). Discuss please. tl;dr version: wah wah, ccp please reduce the huge gap between projectile falloff and optimal by increasing optimal and reducing falloff, while giving barrage a falloff + optimal bonus rather than just falloff. give me free cookies too.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.03 04:59:00 - [2] Edited by: JoeT on 03/01/2009 05:01:14 Edited by: JoeT on 03/01/2009 04:59:54 They are different weapons types at least, each eith their own style of play so to speak. Arts are good for fall fighting while staying faster (though, then realy, whats the point of nanoing a tempest, you'll just die now). Some random number (t2 guns, t1 close range ammo. You can get on SISI and give it a try. More or less a full gank/buffer geddon would be able to get teh cap injecor, 3 heat sinks, 2 plates and 3 hardeners. Useless outside of a gang as Pure dps, as well, pretty much abilty to fit any Ewar (webs, TP, ect). Mega has a little less EHP, but depending on skills, alot more DPS (around 70DPS). Able to fit web, but no scram with my messing around, but if part of a small gang you may have a smaller ship tacking). Moving on to a Tempest, rack of full 800 Repeating Art II - check. gank in lows + dmaage control, check. cap booster + XL booster + 2 invul check. All fits and leaves you with 2 lows to cram w/e in, and a mid slot to do w/e with but only 30cpu and an asston of PG. DPS is roughly 650 ... lower then the other two (since i am not putting anything in the other two slot) dropping to about 350 at 20km. and doing a little over 100dps at 35km where as the geddon changes to longer range ammo. Geddon: Has about 740DPS under 15km, dps drops alot real fast past that. Cap useage is damn high by the way. wont run guns + reps with out the booster. Mega: asston of dps. mostly under 15km. DPS scales about the same as the geddon as range goes out. Overall, yes i think Proj. should get a little love. Moving Opt to 6km wouldnt be too bad i think. Lasers as they are now, arent bad (for once!), but TBH, i still dont want to be on a reciving end of a gank mega in my geddon. I dont think the other two weapons systems need any real tweaking yet. And if later someone wants to go test these things out on SISI, let me know, i'll be more then willing to give it a shot to get better examples. Edit: added some more line breaks. it hurt my head looking at it O_O edit 2: a typo - We are anonymous. We Are legion.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.03 05:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/01/2009 05:06:26 Originally by: Darkstar Deceiver tl;dr version: wah wah, ccp please reduce the huge gap between projectile falloff and optimal by increasing optimal and reducing falloff, while giving barrage a falloff + optimal bonus rather than just falloff. give me free cookies too. lol, barrage would suck balls if it were falloff + opti bonus. It would be nothing but a worse null. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Coriander Rinne Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.01.03 06:34:00 - [4] Edited by: Coriander Rinne on 03/01/2009 06:35:35 Bring projectile charge total damage in line with equivalent hybrid charges and frequency crystals. Change all optimal range modifiers to falloff on projectile charges (and applicable ships?). Add a falloff bonus to tracking computers (but not enhancers), as well as falloff and falloff disruption scripts for tracking computers and tracking disruptors respectively.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.03 07:58:00 - [5] In before, but projectiles use lol no cap. Higher tier projectiles need to give more falloff so there is a reason for minmatar ships to try to fit them. Right now it is lol fit the lowest tier who cares. Oh yeah and unnerf EMP and nerf carb lead to be inline with other ammo. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.03 08:51:00 - [6] Minmatar have a big disadvantage: require a lot of skills to work good - unline cookie cutter blasterthrons, neut domies etc. Fitting knowledge, creativity, flying skills and off course a lot of SPs come into play... IMHO arties could use some changes - changes, not clear boost, just like they changed torps and re-balanced them again after QR. ACs tho are fine, simply cause a capable pilot in a tempest FITTING THE RIGHT EWAR to those 2 high - 1 or 2 mid - slots can do horrible things against other ships 1 vs. 1 or even outnumbered. Ewar makes continuity of those results come true, and it's not down to enemy's lack of skill or luck. Should ACs be more powerful...? I don't know...what would become of ships like the Tempest, Vaga, Hurricane - to name a few? Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Peblonius Maximus	Posted - 2009.01.03 08:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Coriander Rinne Edited by: Coriander Rinne on 03/01/2009 06:35:35 Bring projectile charge total damage in line with equivalent hybrid charges and frequency crystals. cry cry cry... Do we really want EVE to be this boring? Make every race the same, its the only fair way huh?.?. Boo Hoo. I think EVE is balanced just fine. Quit complaining and learn how to fly your own race! You don't like your race? Pick Another!
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2009.01.03 10:02:00 - [8] Must be a myth that blasters are THE close range guns. AC's are the close up ones. Neutron blasters has with void optimal at 6750, and with CN antimatter it is 4500. 800 AC's has with hail optimal at 3000, and with RF EMP optimal is at 3000. On the buff projectile weapons i would be happy to see it. But, i doubt it will ever happen. Projectiles are made to be the lesser good. If you want something that punsh hard and good, go train other races.
Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:51:00 - [9] So not using cap, being able to use short range ammo pretty much without suffering from the optimal penalty, being able to reliably hit stuff at almost 30km with T2 large ACs as opposed to < 20km with neutron IIs in non-rigged setups (even more difference with rigs) is a bad thing now? I am getting the impression someone doesn't know how falloff works, proper AC fits with barrage have a lot more effective range than blaster fits with null. Seriously, the projectiles that are hopelessly underpowered are arties, but most definitely not ACs. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2009.01.03 11:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Leandro Salazar So not using cap, being able to use short range ammo pretty much without suffering from the optimal penalty, being able to reliably hit stuff at almost 30km with T2 large ACs as opposed to < 20km with neutron IIs in non-rigged setups (even more difference with rigs) is a bad thing now? I am getting the impression someone doesn't know how falloff works, proper AC fits with barrage have a lot more effective range than blaster fits with null. Seriously, the projectiles that are hopelessly underpowered are arties, but most definitely not ACs. Just a litle note about optimal and AC's... Per default i think AC's, atleast the 800 class is suppose to have 6k as optimal. But both hail and emp has a -50% to optimal :)

Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Happster Originally by: Leandro Salazar So not using cap, being able to use short range ammo pretty much without suffering from the optimal penalty, being able to reliably hit stuff at almost 30km with T2 large ACs as opposed to < 20km with neutron IIs in non-rigged setups (even more difference with rigs) is a bad thing now? I am getting the impression someone doesn't know how falloff works, proper AC fits with barrage have a lot more effective range than blaster fits with null. Seriously, the projectiles that are hopelessly underpowered are arties, but most definitely not ACs. Just a litle note about optimal and AC's... Per default i think AC's, atleast the 800 class is suppose to have 6k as optimal. But both hail and emp has a -50% to optimal :) Yeah exactly and with a falloff of 20km, you only lose about 15% of your effective range (I consider up to optimal + 75% falloff effective) when going from DU to EMP and retain the ability to hit well beyond that effective range, while on Blasters you lose about 25% and can't hit nearly that far. Please learn the falloff mechanics before whining about ACs. I would link the tracking guide here, but since that genious move to the silly evelopedia I can't seem to find it... And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:17:00 - [12] So much fail in this thread. AC MAIN advantage is exactly the things OP is complainign about. What the large AC need is exactly a n EVEN more skewed range/falloff. Move to 18 km falloff 2.5 km range woudl make it quite better. AC are NOT close range weapons. Check how a vagabond fights ad deimos, or how a sleipnir fights an asterte. From OUTSIDE the blaster boat range. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Clueless Alt	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Check how a vagabond fights ad deimos, or how a sleipnir fights an asterte. From OUTSIDE the blaster boat range. That's just because dps is crap. :P
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.03 13:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Clueless Alt Originally by: Kagura Nikon Check how a vagabond fights ad deimos, or how a sleipnir fights an asterte. From OUTSIDE the blaster boat range. That's just because dps is crap. :P no. Its because at 15- 20 km the vagabnd/sleipnir DPS is HIGHER than the blaster ships. That is the very basics of minmatar cobmat. Up to face fight is gallente stuff. Minamtar fight exploitign its wider engagement envelope. Would very rather have a 20% more falloff change than a 10 % more dps change (yes must compare different values because otherwise obviously if you have higher dps your effective dps at long falloff increases as well) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2009.01.03 13:11:00 - [15] Edited by: Crackpipe2000 on 03/01/2009 13:12:05 I'd rather see that falloff was more like optimal in sense of supportive modules. Optimal: Two modules, a scrpit and a rig Falloff: A rig Both can be damped with a TD script. I cant come up quickly why you should'nt be able to increase the falloff like you can increase optimal. If someone knows, id like to hear it.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.01.03 13:36:00 - [16] 1 projectile damage is too low. The better alpha does not compensate except on the the Thrasher. But who chooses a race based soley on the T1 destroyer? 2 There should be a module that increase optimal should also increase falll off. Minmatar guns are the worst and always have been. There is no good reason for this. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.01.03 13:46:00 - [17] Tracking. Noone has mentioned tracking. Optimal is where your guns CAN do the most damage. If you're optimal is 3km and your guns can't track much under 7km then that optimal is a vague concept. BS guns more then any other weapon system has an issue where the optimal and sweet spot on your tracking range don't match up. EFT does not reflect this which is why it's amusing to hear numbers thrown around. If the 1.2k dps mega misses over half the time is it really that much better then the AC Tempest which has better tracking? AC is fine. From my personal experience I will throw a tracking computer w/ tracking script onto my Tempest. I have fought w/o a tracking computer and again with one in pvp. I will never go back to not using one. HACs trying to get under the guns I couldn't hit before simply melt now. I don't like Barrage. 25% tracking penalty = dps penalty on that size ship.
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.01.03 13:50:00 - [18] give them back their alpha
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.03 14:02:00 - [19] yo put a few more points of damage onto all the large projectile ammo, finally, they're worth using.
Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.01.03 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Nexus Kinnon yo put a few more points of damage onto all the large projectile ammo, finally, they're worth using. That could fix Arties but would make ACs overpowered, which in turn would then see them nerfed back to the stone age soon, so no thanks. ACs are fine, do not touch them. Boost Arties by increasing damage multi or tracking, and fix the ammos so they are in line with the others instead of special but ****ty (i.e. give EMP and PP L 48/44 points of total damage like AM/PL and MF/GA, and nerf carblead and nuclear to 20/24 instead of 24/28. Then switch the roles of EMP and Fusion, so the top damage ammo of minmatar actually focuses on EXP damage, and all will be fine. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...

Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2009.01.03 14:30:00 - [21] Edited by: Happster on 03/01/2009 14:38:23 Originally by: Kagura Nikon So much fail in this thread. AC MAIN advantage is exactly the things OP is complainign about. What the large AC need is exactly a n EVEN more skewed range/falloff. Move to 18 km falloff 2.5 km range woudl make it quite better. AC are NOT close range weapons. Check how a vagabond fights ad deimos, or how a sleipnir fights an asterte. From OUTSIDE the blaster boat range. So much fail in your post Vagabond is a ship and not a gun. It is also only 1 ship out of many that use AC's. This ship has a bonus to falloff making it very good at range with barrage loaded. But, rest of the minnie ships has to fight within normal range and falloff. And i can promis you if you stay at 20km to 30km, you will not do much dps. If you stay at your optimal all other guns will out dps you. Do the AC's has issues when you compare them to the other weapons? Yes. But maybe thats the way they were designed. I have given up on AC's getting better so i have just adapted and cross trained. Every gun system and ships has their use. Well atleast most of them. Just need to find a role for the ships. But some ships fit a role much better then others. But for record. AC's on BS with barrage works pretty nice for gate camps. Edit: Solo runs doesnt happen that often anymore. So i would much rather make our ship have more dedicated roles then today then anything else. The guns work fine if ship is designed to perfom a spesific role. Now i feel its just in between of everything and not good at anything. And this is why vagabond and sleipnir are good ships. They have spesic roles to fill.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.03 15:09:00 - [22] Make trajectory analysis 10% per level. Increase the alpha strike of artillary which is still the same as it was before everyone got there hp boosted. Sort out the damage type ratios within the projectile ammo's so it is actually worthwhile carrying something other than just fleet emp and barrage.
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2009.01.03 15:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Happster Originally by: Leandro Salazar So not using cap, being able to use short range ammo pretty much without suffering from the optimal penalty, being able to reliably hit stuff at almost 30km with T2 large ACs as opposed to < 20km with neutron IIs in non-rigged setups (even more difference with rigs) is a bad thing now? I am getting the impression someone doesn't know how falloff works, proper AC fits with barrage have a lot more effective range than blaster fits with null. Seriously, the projectiles that are hopelessly underpowered are arties, but most definitely not ACs. Just a litle note about optimal and AC's... Per default i think AC's, atleast the 800 class is suppose to have 6k as optimal. But both hail and emp has a -50% to optimal :) Yeah exactly and with a falloff of 20km, you only lose about 15% of your effective range (I consider up to optimal + 75% falloff effective) when going from DU to EMP and retain the ability to hit well beyond that effective range, while on Blasters you lose about 25% and can't hit nearly that far. Please learn the falloff mechanics before whining about ACs. I would link the tracking guide here, but since that genious move to the silly evelopedia I can't seem to find it... Yeah exactly and with -50% optimal -50% falloff for whatever hail i ever used.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 15:35:00 - [24] I think artillery is fine.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:28:00 - [25] small and medium projectiles look weaker then other medium weapon types but are ok now large projectiles are a different story. less dmg and range than other weapon systems and the fact that minmatar bs ship line is the worst, this all makes large projectiles suck. what does the higher falloff offer you anyway? your dmg is already lower and then you have to fight in falloff where it gets even worse and in gangs the higher falloff means nothing, cause you get webbed by a group of ships where you cant dictate range or lasers/torps **** you from far away while you scratch their paint.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic small and medium projectiles look weaker then other medium weapon types but are ok now large projectiles are a different story. less dmg and range than other weapon systems and the fact that minmatar bs ship line is the worst, this all makes large projectiles suck. what does the higher falloff offer you anyway? your dmg is already lower and then you have to fight in falloff where it gets even worse and in gangs the higher falloff means nothing, cause you get webbed by a group of ships where you cant dictate range or lasers/torps **** you from far away while you scratch their paint. Phoon, tempest and maelstrom are exellent ships. Phoon can do pretty much anything. Tempest is the perfect versitile solo BS and maelstrom an excellent tank gank BS. Do you even play minmatar?
Kel Dario Amarr Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Phoon, tempest and maelstrom are exellent ships. Phoon can do pretty much anything. Tempest is the perfect versitile solo BS and maelstrom an excellent tank gank BS. Do you even play minmatar? Hello alt of Lyria Skydancer. Please refrain from commenting on Minmatar ships, thank you.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Kel Dario Please refrain from commenting on Minmatar ships, thank you. Why? Minmatar BS are not broken you know.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Kel Dario Please refrain from commenting on Minmatar ships, thank you. Why? Minmatar BS are not broken you know. If they want to boost my Tempest I won't stop them.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:58:00 - [30] The real ***** with minmatar bs is the wasted fall off advantage because disrupter range is at 24km. At cruiser level the falloff advantage is huge allowing you to get into the "sweet spot" where you do more damage than them due to falloff mechanics, which is supported by minmatars line up of fast/agile ships. A good pilot can dominate, a bad one will get owned. This falls down at bs level though where blaster boats are gonna be nailing you out to disrupter range, have bigger tanks and bigger drone bays. Laser BS have bigger dps vs tank ratios than you and are at optimal all fight, why bother with a mini BS? they are barely even faster than any other BS. Basically they are best at nothing because the unique piloting style of minmatar falls flat on its face when even blaster boats can match them on dps out to disrupter range.



Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.