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Shanzem
Minmatar
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:27:00 -
[31]
This war will end in blood shed and no winners.
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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:27:00 -
[32]
Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.
Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.
Hamas's rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire. If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost yet another war. The question is whether Israel still retains the nerve -- and the moral self-assurance -- to win.
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In summary...Israel goes out of its way to minimise or avoid civilian casualty, even forewarning them where military operations will take place. Hamas goes out of its way to endanger and harm as many civilians as it can on both sides of the conflict. They call for a cease fire whilst continuing to fire rockets...it's pretty clear cut who the bad guys are. The people I feel for are the innocent Israelis and Palestinians that Hamas are targetting are putting in harms way.
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Valan
The Fated
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:28:00 -
[33]
It's been going that long neither side is the right.
However, the only way the US will cease to be a target for terrorism and the Arabs to have peace is for Israel not to be there.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:35:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Super Whopper on 04/01/2009 00:37:51
 Originally by: KingsGambit
I love Faux
How dare Hamas not enjoy the 18 month strangulation of Gaza? They are such terrible people! Israel proving they care about anyone other than themselves.
This thread needs to be locked before ignorant people come in and spam their useless propaganda, like the poster above.
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kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:44:00 -
[35]
Edited by: kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww on 04/01/2009 00:44:24
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XxHey BabyxX
Gallente
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:45:00 -
[36]
funny
Israel must go to war because of it's economy, much like the USA.
just imagine, a Israel without enemys = a bankrupt poor State ect
Actually they just exist, because the major players of the EU (Germany/France/GB and some minor like Austria) and ofcourse the US sponsor them so they always have the best weaponsystems ships aircrafts ect.
Without a Conflict this state wouldn't exist.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
funny
Israel must go to war because of it's economy, much like the USA.
just imagine, a Israel without enemys = a bankrupt poor State ect
Actually they just exist, because the major players of the EU (Germany/France/GB and some minor like Austria) and ofcourse the US sponsor them so they always have the best weaponsystems ships aircrafts ect.
Without a Conflict this state wouldn't exist.
Tragic but true.
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Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:54:00 -
[38]
I wonder if KingsGambit believes in what he says. Such an obvious propaganda. He even tries to transform terror tactics into scrupulous tactics! I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.
Here's the truth, the palestinian land is occupied, devided and the people forced to live into overpopulated areas with endless problems. The only friendly nation they border is Egypt, but in their desperation to get inside Egypt and access it's resources, they've angered said nation. They there thereforer border no friends. They have a huge unemployment. Economical growth is impossible. The palestinian land with water has been colonized by israeli "friendly neighberhoods". They have trouble accessing basic necessities like water and food, they can't even grow their own food. They're miserable.
Faced with such adversities and no hope, radical groups launch some rockets, mostly to military targets. But the rockets are very innacurate and do litle dmg. Some innocent isrealis have died.
Now the isrealis bomb their land, damage their proprierty, terrorise tens or hundreds of thousands, kill hundreds, injure thousands and probably will take some more land.
Takes no genious to realise this is not going to fixe anything. Palestinians are no saints, far from it, but the isrealis are no ****ing better, if not worse.
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Gideon Eisenhorn
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:55:00 -
[39]
Its not like no-one saw this coming to be honest, tension has been rising for a while especially since Hamas got voted in, but this is a outside perspective I see... not sure what the inside story is, nor am I aware of the actual facts..
Trouble is, Israel see it as a right to defend themselves, while this may be true, there are better ways to do this... and if the Ottoman empire hadnt joined sides with germany etc etc and if the british hadnt promised x, y and z then we may not have been in this situation, but then again wee may well of been, as niether side seem to be happy with any kind of compromise...
As for other countries joining in?.... unlikely, with the current economic situation, any leader would be commiting suicide in the polls and with their popularity, however there may be a loop hole, may be cause for an all out war if oil supplies are distrupted enough, then... God forbid, we may well be looking at world war 3
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fairimear
Gallente
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:55:00 -
[40]
TBH this thread should be locked.
Very few people Understand the complexity of the subject and most are in short just people brought up in either a pro secular or pro Monotheistic household Or are going to have personal beliefs from some limited understanding or experience of the situation.
This thread and this forum does not have the adequately intellectual base to have this discussion.
All that really can be said is that ALOT of people who could other wise live full productive lives are going to die fighting a war their sacrifice will have no effect on the outcome of.
Bringing a type of class to PL. |
Irulan S'Dijana
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:58:00 -
[41]
RULE 5!! RULE 5!!!!
- Nobody gets rich in this business. You simply obtain new levels of relative poverty. |
Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:05:00 -
[42]
fairimear, you talk as if you understood the complexity of the issue, when apparently you don't, so how about you quit your arrogance and allow us to discuss the issue so we can better understand said complexity?
oh wait, you can't stop us
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fairimear
Gallente
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
funny
Israel must go to war because of it's economy, much like the USA.
just imagine, a Israel without enemy's = a bankrupt poor State ect
Actually they just exist, because the major players of the EU (Germany/France/GB and some minor like Austria) and of course the US sponsor them so they always have the best weapon systems ships aircrafts ect.
Without a Conflict this state wouldn't exist.
Tragic but true.
It exists because of a debt the west felt it owed to the Jewish people after the second world war.
Basically.
So yes it was born of war.
But the Region is actually a very very very nice place geographically.
If not for war it would have a massive tourist industry.
Historically alone Millions would go to the region.
Take Lebanon as example. before the fighting there it was becoming a hot tourist destination for fun in the sun.
And had a Large and growing Ex pat population form The EU and US.
So no the state it's self would be perfectly self sufficient without conflict.
Bringing a type of class to PL. |
Gideon Eisenhorn
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:08:00 -
[44]
fairimear
How do you expect people to become aware of the real issues and facts if they cannot be discused?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:12:00 -
[45]
Nice bit of propaganda you got right there, KingsGambit.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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fairimear
Gallente
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Gideon Eisenhorn
fairimear
How do you expect people to become aware of the real issues and facts if they cannot be discused?
It's not that it can't be discussed.
It's just that the discussion on the subject always ends up in the dull drums of "Israel done this a year ago"
"Hama's did this 5 months ago".
"people are starving"
"rockets are firing"
The problem is that many many people have died over this and it's kind of a insult to bring it to a forum like this. when unfortunately the discussion always comes back to what ever the problem is at hand.
And you then get very byass people saying one thing is worse than another.
No one in these threads ever ever looks at the big picture as such.
I am not here to take a side. and Neither should any 1 here be. It's a terrible waste of life and stating facts about what one side or another has done does nothing to solve the fact people are dieing over it.
Bringing a type of class to PL. |
Gideon Eisenhorn
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:24:00 -
[47]
Good point, but a forum like this is for some the only way they will find out about the other side of the story that the media doesnt show.. what do I think of the whole issue?
The two sides need to 'grow up' and realise the potential of the area if the just stopped fighting, as you said the potential tourism is unlike anywhere else...
To me it does seem like religion and politics are taking a too higher value compared to human lives
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XxHey BabyxX
Gallente
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:25:00 -
[48]
Originally by: fairimear
It exists because of a debt the west felt it owed to the Jewish people after the second world war.
Basically.
So yes it was born of war.
But the Region is actually a very very very nice place geographically.
If not for war it would have a massive tourist industry.
Historically alone Millions would go to the region.
Take Lebanon as example. before the fighting there it was becoming a hot tourist destination for fun in the sun.
And had a Large and growing Ex pat population form The EU and US.
So no the state it's self would be perfectly self sufficient without conflict.
And just to edit that. That would apply no matter it being Jewish inhabited, Christian or Islamic.
What ever the state. It could and would survive there without the fighting.
It wouldn't survive a minute without it's military, that's the problem.
After more than 50 years of apartheid, you can't expect that the ones that sufferd will just forgetting everything. Even Egypt and the Saudis would go after Israel if they had the Chance to do so.
Just because their Governments made peace and deals with Israel doesn't mean that the population just forget the last decades.
Especially nowadays, with all the Digital medias the average muslime guy in this region and their children and grand children will not forget what they have done to them.
As you can see know live on CNN and other NEWS Media, Israel is digging his own grave.
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fairimear
Gallente
S.A.S
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:47:00 -
[49]
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 04/01/2009 01:27:34
Originally by: fairimear
It exists because of a debt the west felt it owed to the Jewish people after the second world war.
Basically.
So yes it was born of war.
But the Region is actually a very very very nice place geographically.
If not for war it would have a massive tourist industry.
Historically alone Millions would go to the region.
Take Lebanon as example. before the fighting there it was becoming a hot tourist destination for fun in the sun.
And had a Large and growing Ex pat population form The EU and US.
So no the state it's self would be perfectly self sufficient without conflict.
And just to edit that. That would apply no matter it being Jewish inhabited, Christian or Islamic.
What ever the state. It could and would survive there without the fighting.
It wouldn't survive a minute without it's military, that's the problem.
After more than 50 years of apartheid, you can't expect that the ones that sufferd will just forgetting everything. Even Egypt and the Saudis would go after Israel if they had the Chance to do so.
Just because their Governments made peace and deals with Israel doesn't mean that the population just forget the last decades.
Especially nowadays, with all the Digital medias the average muslime guy in this region and their children and grand children will not forget how the Israelis threaten them.
You can see it now live on CNN and other NEWS Media, Israel is digging his own grave.
O there's no doubt it would not in reality.
The point is that the people there do not actually need war for the region to prosper.
And yes Muslims in the area will not forget.
But like i said that is basically the blame game in simple people terms.
There has been act's of violence committed in that region for over a thousand years.
And if you study your history and politics's and religion and sociology and most importantly your art history.
you will understand that it's basically the same 2 social groups fighting.
West vs middle east.
the war it's self is a proxy war.
like Vietnam was a proxy war for Communism vs capitalisms. Israel and Gaza is the proxy for Secular Vs monotheistic. And in some ways Capitalism vs monotheistic.
This is why what is on the new's today, last month, a year ago or 10 is limited in it's importance to actually ending the conflict.
Yes Anger is caused by these event's and that is why the term "they fought until neither side could remember what they were fight over" was coined.
And "war takes on a life of it's own" people there keep hurting each other and keep giving the other side reason to hate.
The subject has to be seen from both the World wide and Historical angle as well as the on the ground day to day angle.
A almost impossible task.
i am gonna leave this thread at that tbh.
I hope that this episode in the conflict dies down before to many die.
I know lot's of people who play eve live in the region and i hope they stay safe no matter what side they are on.
Bringing a type of class to PL. |
Roy34543
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:47:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Roy34543 on 04/01/2009 01:54:13
Edited by: Roy34543 on 04/01/2009 01:47:29
I am not going to comment on the Israelis except saying on the whole I support them but-
regardless, hamas is utterly despicable, they almost entirely put their efforts into provoking Israel to win minor, worthless victories that never get them anything. They try and get civilian casualties , they hold their weapons near civilian areas (though i admit considering the gaza strip is tiny, there isnt always much alternative) and put the people they purport to support in constant risk.
Even if you somehow consider this "fair" you would still have the fact theyre extremely Islamic , going to the point of harrasing christians and trying to put forward islamic law, and they are extremely dictatorial, killing supporters of fatah or jailing them and stifling political opposition and manipulating the society (if you recieve help there, you can be sure its said to be from hamas even if its from human rights groups) and they dont even discriminate between palestinians in Israel and Israelis, they have numerous times used suicide bombers in palestinian neighborhoods and their rockets have hit palestinians.
I guess im just saying, even if Israel can be considered a great evil, Hamas is a greater one that must be destroyed for the benefit of the palestinians , and not just Israelis.
Quote:
You can see it now live on CNN and other NEWS Media, Israel is digging his own grave.
Im not too sure, compared to many african countries, and places like burma, Israel is doing pretty good. And its pretty hard to take down a democratic country (only election wise, and Israel almost entirely is) and the palestinians dont even really outnumber the jews anymore unless you expect about 7 million emigrants to move back
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: fairimear
It exists because of a debt the west felt it owed to the Jewish people after the second world war.
Very wrong. Read a Failed States and you will be shocked to learn why the evangelicals in the US support Israel so staunchly. It shocked me so much I nearly fell off my chair, literally. And when I realised the truth it brought a smile to my face 
I will leave this thread with that.
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ragewind
Caldari
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:21:00 -
[52]
deaths are never good but anyone saying Israel being over the top is just stupid they are actually quite restrained and using the most effective and accurate force they can, and sadly it will leave many dead for both side.
end of they day think of it were you live and imagine having the need for a bomb shelter due to a neighboring city rocketing you randomly you would want action to stop that off your government plane and simple.
and in the modern times that we live they are being very restrained in how they deal with this, with the state of weaponry and the size of the gazza strip they quite easily just blast it of the face of the earth never to be mentioned again no loses of their personnel and a lot cheaper
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Zyck
KDS Navy
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:23:00 -
[53]
Just to correct someone from the first page, I think you have it backwards. It's not 70-80 Hamas killed, it's a few hundred. The UN has said that between 20 and 25% of the casualties are civilians.
I'm not excusing the civilian deaths, just that you had the numbers backwards.
-Zyck |
Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:50:00 -
[54]
after reading the posts my opinion remains:
nuke them both.
from orbit.
only way to be sure tbh.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
MooKids
Caldari
Dark Echo Engineering
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:07:00 -
[55]
I just look forward to the day we no longer need Middle East oil, that or it all dries up. Then all those countries will go third world and we won't have to care about them anymore.
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CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
Roy34543
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: MooKids
I just look forward to the day we no longer need Middle East oil, that or it all dries up. Then all those countries will go third world and we won't have to care about them anymore.
for the sake of fairness, Neither the Israeli or palestinian economies rely (though they probably wish they could) on oil. However sometimes funding for terrorst groups comes through oil, but then to be fair there again they tend to be self-sufficient and dont need money to the same degree as a goverment
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Rob Z0mbie
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ragewind
deaths are never good but anyone saying Israel being over the top is just stupid they are actually quite restrained and using the most effective and accurate force they can, and sadly it will leave many dead for both side.
wtf are you on about  this **** is happening next to me and **** me is it far from accurate
please, give me some of what you're smoking, in fact, come give these kids at the hospital some of what you're smoking, the medical system was just announced near-critical mass and is failing horribly.
ffs 
-
And i will pay no attention to the US\FOX poison spewer  i pity the loss of your mind to corporate media.
"In the name of peace
They waged the wars
Ain't they got no shame
~Nikki Giovanni
"
Justice will prevail. =/
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Rob Z0mbie
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Roy34543
Originally by: MooKids
I just look forward to the day we no longer need Middle East oil, that or it all dries up. Then all those countries will go third world and we won't have to care about them anymore.
for the sake of fairness, Neither the Israeli or palestinian economies rely (though they probably wish they could) on oil. However sometimes funding for terrorst groups comes through oil, but then to be fair there again they tend to be self-sufficient and dont need money to the same degree as a goverment
Israel gets 6 bilion $ a year from the US for it to buy weapons and vehicles from US manufacturers.
talk about funding eh.
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Rob Z0mbie
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:38:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Rob Z0mbie on 04/01/2009 03:41:26
Originally by: Zyck
Just to correct someone from the first page, I think you have it backwards. It's not 70-80 Hamas killed, it's a few hundred. The UN has said that between 20 and 25% of the casualties are civilians.
I'm not excusing the civilian deaths, just that you had the numbers backwards.
30% of the casualties are women and children, over 60 children killed so far (not counting men), one killed just an hour ago actually and 11 wounded. death toll is up to 500+ now.
Hamas personnel killed according Israeli sources range between 100 and 150 out of the total sum. Leaving an estimate of 350-400 civilian losses.
Most of the bombings are said to be targeting weapon and ammo depots but are causing massive civilian losses instead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm
Bet`selem recognizes the above incident, Betselem is the Israeli information center for human rights in the occupied territories.
Homepage: http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
edit: And the situation has become a full fledged war from what im seeing, it's pretty insane the amount of firepower that's being dished out, F16s\helicopters, Tanks and Warships are all bombarding the area.
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MooKids
Caldari
Dark Echo Engineering
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Roy34543
Originally by: MooKids
I just look forward to the day we no longer need Middle East oil, that or it all dries up. Then all those countries will go third world and we won't have to care about them anymore.
for the sake of fairness, Neither the Israeli or palestinian economies rely (though they probably wish they could) on oil. However sometimes funding for terrorst groups comes through oil, but then to be fair there again they tend to be self-sufficient and dont need money to the same degree as a goverment
My point is that oil is the major reason why we care what happens in that part of the world. True neither side has it, but they are pretty damn close to it.
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CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
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