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Charlotte Otaared	Posted - 2009.01.03 21:53:00 - [1] Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 03/01/2009 21:54:05 Hi there, I still try to figure out how vulnerable motherships are, by doing research on forums, but there are a few things I don't completely understand yet. Would appreciate to get some advise here: So in the beginning MS and Titans could only be bubbled in 0.0 and therefore have been quite overpowered in low-sec. After that HICs got this "Infinite Warp Disruption" script to tackle supercaps also in low-sec. My question is: does this script only work in low-sec or also in 0.0? And if in 0.0 aswell, why are in 0.0 still bubbles the way to go? Why isn't it easier if all HICs just use their script? As I understand it so far the only counter a Motherships has against HICs are: 1. of course a good support fleet 2. her own neuts (which prolly will not work against a handfull of HICs) 3. maybe this remote ECM burst So is the idea, that if for example a motherships get tackled in low-sec by more than one HIC it can try to break their lock with the remote ECM burst to then jump out before they can achieve a lock again? As I understand the Remote ECM Burst module right, that would require that at least one other ship is there - which is not one of the hostile HICs - from which the ECM burst can be launched. So in my eyes in this case that might be a good defense? Or do I understand something wrong? Is it just not practicable etc? Of course a MS/Titan is still lost if it get's hot-dropped by a larger fleet without any own support :) Thanks!
Xephys	Posted - 2009.01.03 21:59:00 - [2] Scripted WDFG + A heavy neut = dead cap within a minute, I would assume.
cynosuri	Posted - 2009.01.03 23:28:00 - [3] a bubble can't be jammed, simple as
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.04 01:26:00 - [4] Originally by: cynosuri a bubble can't be jammed, simple as This. In 0.0, heavy dictors are way better off using their bubble and simply orbiting the cap ship at 10km or so to prevent it from warping. While doing so it cannot be jammed which makes it a much more effective tackler. It still cannot be remote-repped however and 20 fighters will kill any HIC given a minute or two, so multiple ones are still needed, along with some sort of rr support. The Remote ECM burst is indeed a powerful tool but only when the effect to be disabled requires lock - both types of interdictors can circumvent it easily. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2009.01.04 03:15:00 - [5] The answer is clearly a nano-MS..., neut the HIC and warp then wrap ze cloak. __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.04 04:09:00 - [6] I have a quick question regarding this actually. The remote ecm burst would allow escaping a hic's script tackle in low sec. The activation time is 20 seconds, does this mean that no ship can lock anything on grid for 20 seconds? Coz that wld be an awesome mod for MS's in lowsec (and indeed ms's in fleet battles if it turns unfavourable). EVE history t2 precisions
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.01.04 05:05:00 - [7] Edited by: Last Wolf on 04/01/2009 05:07:16 Edited by: Last Wolf on 32/13/3025 25:61:61 IIRC it means you can only activate it once every 20 seconds. It it does EXACTLY what the module's name suggests. Delivers an ECM burst at range. And just like an ECM burst, it causes all effected by it to lose thier targets. And that is It. They are not jammed for any length of time and can immediately re-lock. And with the signature a MS has, a HIC will be able to almost insta lock it. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2009.01.04 08:21:00 - [8] I dont think the remote ECM burst works in low sec does it? "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Miz Cenuij I dont think the remote ECM burst works in low sec does it? I see no reason why it shouldn't tbh. And BT, its a burst, not a jammer. It only breaks locks, the target can immediately re-lock. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Djan Anaplian Gallente Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Miz Cenuij I dont think the remote ECM burst works in low sec does it? I see no reason why it shouldn't tbh. And BT, its a burst, not a jammer. It only breaks locks, the target can immediately re-lock. It works.
Charlotte Otaared	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:43:00 - [11] Thanks for all the replies! That helped me a lot to understand it better. So it now makes absolutely sense to me, that HICs prefer bubbles in 0.0 over the script, due to the jamming issue. I also see the point that the Remote ECM Burst might only rescue your ass in low-sec, if you have ... 1. a really really good timing - burst and jump more ore less simultaneasly, due to the "insta-relock" 2. still enough cap to jump (which seems to be quite unlikely) 3. and last but not least also luck, that it really breaks everyones lock Well, for what else can the Remote ECM Burst be really usefull? Cheers, Charlotte
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:56:00 - [12] Edited by: TimMc on 04/01/2009 12:57:43 Originally by: Charlotte Otaared Thanks for all the replies! That helped me a lot to understand it better. So it now makes absolutely sense to me, that HICs prefer bubbles in 0.0 over the script, due to the jamming issue. I also see the point that the Remote ECM Burst might only rescue your ass in low-sec, if you have ... 1. a really really good timing - burst and jump more ore less simultaneasly, due to the "insta-relock" 2. still enough cap to jump (which seems to be quite unlikely) 3. and last but not least also luck, that it really breaks everyones lock Well, for what else can the Remote ECM Burst be really usefull? Cheers, Charlotte Not really useful at all. Even your fighters have too big a sig radius to argue that the lock break could protect them. Edit: oh yeah, you have the sig radius of a small moon. You are not going to protect yourself by using that ECM burst as they can relock almost instantly. Only thing that will take time is to click the lock button.
Djan Anaplian Gallente Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.04 14:51:00 - [13] Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 04/01/2009 12:57:43 Originally by: Charlotte Otaared Thanks for all the replies! That helped me a lot to understand it better. So it now makes absolutely sense to me, that HICs prefer bubbles in 0.0 over the script, due to the jamming issue. I also see the point that the Remote ECM Burst might only rescue your ass in low-sec, if you have ... 1. a really really good timing - burst and jump more ore less simultaneasly, due to the "insta-relock" 2. still enough cap to jump (which seems to be quite unlikely) 3. and last but not least also luck, that it really breaks everyones lock Well, for what else can the Remote ECM Burst be really usefull? Cheers, Charlotte Not really useful at all. Even your fighters have too big a sig radius to argue that the lock break could protect them. Edit: oh yeah, you have the sig radius of a small moon. You are not going to protect yourself by using that ECM burst as they can relock almost instantly. Only thing that will take time is to click the lock button. You align out, say your not being bumped - that split second gives you time to warp off, cloak and jump out/do whatever. It is very useful.
Callisia	Posted - 2009.01.04 14:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Charlotte Otaared Well, for what else can the Remote ECM Burst be really usefull? Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought that remote ECM bursts had the ability to break the lock of sieged dreads (EW immunity notwithstanding). If so, in a large, laggy capship battle where it can take forever to achieve a lock, a few remote ECM equipped moms staggering their use could drastically reduce the DPS of a blob of hostile dreads.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.04 15:01:00 - [15] I don't know if it's been tested but as far as I know sieging a dread raises their sensor strength to 1000 and invalidates any e-war action on them in the same way that ms and titans get by default, so I don't think it has any effect. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.04 15:40:00 - [16] Well, and I thought its actually there to break up remote repping balls. I dont know if its strong enough to break a carrier's lock.. but if it is, well, couple it with some sigres dampers for good measure.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:01:00 - [17] In past ALL ECM burst even the conventional one were able to affect motherships and titans. But was corrected quite some patches ago ( only I saw that in patch notes? )
Rejected Enlightenment Guiding Hand Social Club Otherworld Empire Productions	Posted - 2009.01.04 18:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Last Wolf IIRC it means you can only activate it once every 20 seconds. After you activate the module, it takes 20seconds(before skills) to activate on the target. You can reactivate it 5mins after it goes off. And yeah, it's one of the most useful modules for a mothership.
Charlotte Otaared	Posted - 2009.01.04 23:11:00 - [19] Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 04/01/2009 23:14:30 Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 04/01/2009 23:12:00 Originally by: Callisia Originally by: Charlotte Otaared Well, for what else can the Remote ECM Burst be really usefull? Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought that remote ECM bursts had the ability to break the lock of sieged dreads (EW immunity notwithstanding). If so, in a large, laggy capship battle where it can take forever to achieve a lock, a few remote ECM equipped moms staggering their use could drastically reduce the DPS of a blob of hostile dreads. Well tbh that is what I thought it could do in the first place as well. But I think it isn't that easy. First of all the description of the siege and triage modul says: Quote: Due to the ionic field created by the siege/triage module, remote effects like warp scrambling et al. will not affect the ship while in siege mode.
Charlotte Otaared	Posted - 2009.01.04 23:12:00 - [20] Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 04/01/2009 23:12:58 Sounds to me, that it will not work in siege or triage mode. More over ECM is normally chance based (but I also read that burst modules have been buggy regarding this), depending on the sensor strength of the attacker and defender. The Remote ECM Burst has on all four flavours a strenght of "only" 25. A BS has an stregth of something between 19-24. So the chance to break the lock of BSs within the range (20km) of the burst is 100% BUT ... a dreadnought has already s strenght of something about 40-50 and a carrier even has a sensor strength between 70 and 80. So it should be an average chance of 50% for a dreadnought and about 30% for a carrier. And then there is also this problem: Originally by: Rejected Enlightenment After you activate the module, it takes 20seconds(before skills) to activate on the target. You can reactivate it 5mins after it goes off. And yeah, it's one of the most useful modules for a mothership. The desciption even speaks of 5-10 minutes depending on skills until you can fire the next one. So I think the skills don't apply on the 20 seconds(?) So I would say due to this new insights: - it can maybe help you to escape in low sec. (also liked the idea with aligning to warp and then Burst the hostiles!) - it can maybe disturb the hostile carriers, while they try to remote repp, if they are not in triage But then it's nothing more than an EWAR support for the jammers you might have with you anyway to screw up the hostile carriers. With one than more MS and the skilled trained to max. this could be quite effective?!? Well ... tbh I thought it can do more, if I am really right with my assumptions here ...
vostok Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.04 23:41:00 - [21] Originally by: The Tzar The answer is clearly a nano-MS..., neut the HIC and warp then wrap ze cloak. THE hic... Now that's an optimistic assumption. - Adaptation is not* an excuse for lack of ballance!* -
NoNah	Posted - 2009.01.05 00:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Polinus In past ALL ECM burst even the conventional one were able to affect motherships and titans. But was corrected quite some patches ago ( only I saw that in patch notes? ) Are you entirely 100% positive on this? I recall it being quite the other way around. IE they mentioned it in the patchnotes regarding remote ecm-burst not working on sieged/super caps and fixed it so that it is now yet again similar to how all bursts should be. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 897842
Callisia	Posted - 2009.01.05 02:06:00 - [23] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Polinus In past ALL ECM burst even the conventional one were able to affect motherships and titans. But was corrected quite some patches ago ( only I saw that in patch notes? ) Are you entirely 100% positive on this? I recall it being quite the other way around. IE they mentioned it in the patchnotes regarding remote ecm-burst not working on sieged/super caps and fixed it so that it is now yet again similar to how all bursts should be. This was bugging me so I had a trawl through previous patch notes. It states in the patch notes for build 36191 (Revelations 2.2) that: "ECM burst, both normal and remote, no longer affects ships supposedly immune to Electronic Warfare." I assume this includes ships which have EW immunity by virtue of being in siege/triage, hence the remote ECM burst won't work on sieged dreads. Shame really.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.05 05:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Miz Cenuij I dont think the remote ECM burst works in low sec does it? I see no reason why it shouldn't tbh. And BT, its a burst, not a jammer. It only breaks locks, the target can immediately re-lock. WTF. So It helps in no way if the ms is tackled (due to bumping) in low sec. It will jam your friends if you ever use it in a fleet battle. It will not work v. well in a 0.0 fleet (were 99.99% of large fleet battles occur) coz even if your fleet aligns out most will be bubbled to hell. Of course I dont fly ms, but how is this thing useful again? Sure in low sec u cld align, burst and warp, but your almost always getting bumped so youll get re-locked and jammed. A flight of ec-900's would be much more effective. c/d? EVE history t2 precisions
Ciuciundra	Posted - 2009.01.05 09:06:00 - [25] you activate remote ecm burst and jump out to some other system? When all the hics loose their lock? :) Bumping wont do jack****, if u dont have a infipoint on ms. Assuming you are not neuted to death of course :)
Varrakk Phantom Squad	Posted - 2009.01.05 09:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Varrakk on 05/01/2009 09:14:51 ECM Burst is bugged. It doesnt affect the ship you fire it on. To affect the said HIC, you gotta fire it on a ship close to it. ECM burst doesnt affect Supercap or Siege Dreadnaughts. With the web range nerf on Officer Webs, HIC borderlining being impossible to kill.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2009.01.05 09:45:00 - [27] Edited by: Garia666 on 05/01/2009 09:44:44 what i dont get is why those cap ships ms / titan use those expensive cap rechagers. up there meds. Most of the time MS die of running out of cap instead of being unable to tank. If it would put an cap battery + cap boosters full with 800`s and a hangar full wouldnt that be better? its tottaly oftopic hehe i just got an brain fart www.garia.net
Varrakk Phantom Squad	Posted - 2009.01.05 10:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 05/01/2009 09:44:44 what i dont get is why those cap ships ms / titan use those expensive cap rechagers. up there meds. Most of the time MS die of running out of cap instead of being unable to tank. If it would put an cap battery + cap boosters full with 800`s and a hangar full wouldnt that be better? its tottaly oftopic hehe i just got an brain fart They do, because that +4% or +8% or high cap rechargers outclasses the 800 charges by far.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.01.05 11:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Varrakk Edited by: Varrakk on 05/01/2009 09:14:51 ECM Burst is bugged. It doesnt affect the ship you fire it on. To affect the said HIC, you gotta fire it on a ship close to it. ECM burst doesnt affect Supercap or Siege Dreadnaughts. With the web range nerf on Officer Webs, HIC borderlining being impossible to kill. That's the issue in low sec. A good hostile fleet have a couple of HIC's that rotate on tackling. Warp a few hundred km away, on- or offgrid, and keep your tackle outside officer mod tackle range. Fighters won't do much damage to a couple of HIC's rotating like this, and if you time it well the burst won't do much either. Your only hope is that you have enough cap that you can time your burst+cyno instantly after eachother. Because most of those HIC's will more or less instalock you again. This is the major reason I am not sitting in a MS atm. The isk and skills are ready, it's just way too easy to tackle a MS. As for the fleet and dread in siege vs remote ECM burst-questions; The BoB and the Triumvirate versions. Look at the three MM-MS'. They do zero damage and only end up on km's with remote bursts. I sat next to them trying to RR in my Carrier. At the same time I lost my lock and started to look for a hostile falcon/scorp/whatnot that killed my lock, the hostile dreads zerged down our MS in short time. I.e. the MS' fielded there virtually only killed the carrier RR (which would've helped us) while virtually not disrupting our hostiles (as they wouldn't/couldn't RR their dreads). I can see the usefulness of the remote ECM in travelfits, but for fleets I rather think of it as a massive liability. Maybe have one fitted for situational use, but NO, it does not make sieged dreads lose their lock.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.05 12:19:00 - [30] Edited by: Sokratesz on 05/01/2009 12:21:38 Originally by: Garia666 Most of the time MS die of running out of cap instead of being unable to tank. If it would put an cap battery + cap boosters full with 800`s and a hangar full wouldnt that be better? its tottaly oftopic hehe i just got an brain fart Motherships die because of two reasons: a) Their tank gets overwhelmed by a couple dozen dreads worth of dps (my death f. ex) b) Unable to get hotdropped in a cynojammed system or remote location, they fight a smaller fleet of other carriers or sub-caps and they eventually run out of cap. A good MS fit can perma-run it's own tank at least and should have lots of cap spare to spend rr'ing or neuting. Wyverns are easy to fit for this, and with the correct reasoning, the other three can come very close to it. (With less cap generally, but whilst having a larger HP buffer) The cap gain from a heavy injector with 800 charges is about 50 cap/s including reload times. (mind you, reloading will be a lot worse in laggy situations). A good MS fit can attain a recharge rate of close to 400 cap/s while nerfing it's fit a lot less than fitting multiple cap injectors would. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Charlotte Otaared	Posted - 2009.01.05 13:55:00 - [31] Still wondering, what CCPs idea with this module then is So maybe "just" support for Battleship Fleet fights? If you have a Sniper-BS engagement with high numbers of pilots, where both parties are far away enough from each other - so that a handful MSs could rotate their ECM burst into the hostile fleet, without affecting their own BSs - that might give you a small advantage. But taken into account that even with high numbers a BS fleet flight doesn't last very long and also quickly becomes quite laggy - especially at gates when one of the two fleets jumps in - each MS you bring might only be able to fire it once or twice. And in the end it's also the question is how often you really have this situation/opportunity plus the circumstance, that you can position your MSs at the frontline as BS support, without bringing them into a situation where it's likely that the hostiles have their cap fleet already in position, just waiting to hotdrop you.
Rejected Enlightenment Guiding Hand Social Club Otherworld Empire Productions	Posted - 2009.01.06 01:17:00 - [32] Edited by: Rejected Enlightenment on 06/01/2009 01:23:16 Originally by: Charlotte Otaared The desciption even speaks of 5-10 minutes depending on skills until you can fire the next one. So I think the skills don't apply on the 20 seconds(?) The description on the module is incorrect, the one on the skill is correct. Originally by: Varrakk ECM Burst is bugged. It doesnt affect the ship you fire it on. With the web range nerf on Officer Webs, HIC borderlining being impossible to kill. First, it's not bugged, the ECM burst originates from the ship you activate it on, and goes for 20km around that ship. When you activate a normal ECM burst it doesn't cause your ship to lose lock, this works the same way. Secondly, HICs are easy as hell to kill, if you're in a mothership and you're having trouble killing a HIC, you're doing it wrong. Motherships work best as defensive tool, the ECM bomb should be used in conjunction with other defensive elements, as it can disrupt battleship fire and RR, and to some extent carrier RR. Used while defending a cynojammer and/or other posses motherships are one of the most powerful options available, especially when the ability to doomsday under jammers is removed.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.06 04:32:00 - [33] I'm just curious I'm not arguing its a valid strategy or anything but say you are in low sec (no bubbles) your MS gets jumped due to you being an idiot or whatever. Could you not: align full speed to a friendly pos or safe spot or whatever, activate remote ecm (thus breaking hics "superpoint" and instawarp to friendly pos. I assume this is precisely why people bump supercaps, but if you react fast enough (or the tacklers only just arrived so bumps not in position you are already aligned or whatever) would it work?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.06 09:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Could you not: align full speed to a friendly pos or safe spot or whatever, activate remote ecm (thus breaking hics "superpoint" and instawarp to friendly pos. I assume this is precisely why people bump supercaps, but if you react fast enough (or the tacklers only just arrived so bumps not in position you are already aligned or whatever) would it work? Would theoretically be possible but due to bumping - no. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Rejected Enlightenment Guiding Hand Social Club Otherworld Empire Productions	Posted - 2009.01.07 23:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Norwood Franskly Could you not: align full speed to a friendly pos or safe spot or whatever, activate remote ecm (thus breaking hics "superpoint" and instawarp to friendly pos. I assume this is precisely why people bump supercaps, but if you react fast enough (or the tacklers only just arrived so bumps not in position you are already aligned or whatever) would it work? Would theoretically be possible but due to bumping - no. It's fairly difficult to bump a mothership at speed that significantly.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.08 06:28:00 - [36] Yes but it's also very difficult for the mom to get up to speed with loads of drones and other crap around him
Rejected Enlightenment Guiding Hand Social Club Otherworld Empire Productions	Posted - 2009.01.08 22:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Sokratesz Yes but it's also very difficult for the mom to get up to speed with loads of drones and other crap around him Why wouldn't the mom be up to speed before they arrived/as soon as they did. I mean, unless you're an idiot and jump directly into a dread fleet, in which case you'd deserve to lose your mothership for the simple fact that you're completely inept.

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