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Akumi Tukara	Posted - 2009.01.04 06:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Akumi Tukara on 04/01/2009 06:16:05 for all those who say fit ECCM to combat falcons. It does not work.
Jevexus	Posted - 2009.01.04 06:46:00 - [2] you got to remember to turn it on...
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.04 07:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Akumi Tukara Edited by: Akumi Tukara on 04/01/2009 06:16:05 for all those who say fit ECCM to combat falcons. It does not work. Ok so with the ECCM what was the falcons % to jam per cycle and how long did he jam you for with a single break?
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.04 09:19:00 - [4] Oppertunity cost is too high to fit ECCM, with most combat ships only having 3-4 midslots.
Elizabeth vonStrauss	Posted - 2009.01.04 09:39:00 - [5] yes, its pointless fitting ECCM if u know that u are going against falcon/rook/scorp because 1 ECCM wont save u, 2 could, but to "waste" 2 mids on PvP ships is really annoying! I ussualy fly without ECCM, unless on sniper for anti-falcon duty or if i know that i will be able to redock/jump when falcon si dead:D
yrknat	Posted - 2009.01.04 09:53:00 - [6] Edited by: yrknat on 04/01/2009 09:53:06 If a falcon wants to jam you, hes going to do it. However, fitting eccm means hes gonna have to put more of his jammers on you to reliably keep you out of the fight, meaning less jammers to spread around to your gangmates. Eccm is also really helpful against ecm drones.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.04 10:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 04/01/2009 10:19:40 Originally by: Akumi Tukara Edited by: Akumi Tukara on 04/01/2009 06:16:05 for all those who say fit ECCM to combat falcons. It does not work. Shield and armor hardeners do not work at all then either. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.01.04 10:47:00 - [8] You were looking for 100% efficency? Can you point me towards the armor hardener that gives me that as well please?
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.04 10:51:00 - [9] I don't. It just was a reaction to people who say ECCM does not work. But it does which does not effect their opinion about ecm and their will to fit properly. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:23:00 - [10] Armor repairers are broken also.THEY DO NOTHING WTF !!!!!????????
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:25:00 - [11] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Fitting 2 modules to counter one ship in this game is still not balanced. Not even with 2 modules are you even guaranteed for it to work. Remember how ppl used to cry about dampeners? Yet a single sensor booster II could negate the most severe effect of not locking under web and scram range. 2 sensor booster IIs made damps quite worthless. Still they nerfed celestis, arazu and lachesis to hell. Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. When it comes to small gangs you can't afford to but 2 ECCM on all ships. Your alternative to win a small gang fight is to bring your own falcon. In big fights falcons doesn't make that much impact if ppl fit ECCM and have counter of their own. But in small gang pvp a falcon wins the fight. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Akumi Tukara Edited by: Akumi Tukara on 04/01/2009 06:16:05 for all those who say fit ECCM to combat falcons. It does not work. Yes it does... Tested it on my Arazu against a falcon. Without, falcon got 7/10 jams With, falcon got 5/10 jams With overload, falcon got 4/10 jams Tested again without ECCM, falcon got 8/10 jams. --
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:30:00 - [13] my eccmed apoc seemed to do fine against a ZOMFG 2 falcons it is a wee bit like rolling a d10 and a few d20s and hoping you don't see a number less than 3. sometimes it will happen most of the time it wont.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:44:00 - [14] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
shamai	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:02:00 - [15] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Fitting 2 modules to counter one ship in this game is still not balanced. Not even with 2 modules are you even guaranteed for it to work. So if I fit 2 hardeners, my tank should always hold....right? Quote: Remember how ppl used to cry about dampeners? Yet a single sensor booster II could negate the most severe effect of not locking under web and scram range. 2 sensor booster IIs made damps quite worthless. Still they nerfed celestis, arazu and lachesis to hell. Its chance based, not a guarantee, these are difficult concepts I know but try and understand the difference Quote: Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. Incorrect. ANY ECCM helps and generally thwarts or forces the plan of the falcon ECM pilot. Claiming that with 3 its not working half the time is just plain rubbish. On any battleship 3ECCM would give the falcon pilot approx 12% chance to jam with multi-spec hypnos. Before you start wittering on about racial jammers, thats a highly specialist fit and even then only about 18-22% chance per module. A decent falcon pilot will field normally 5 MAYBE 6 jammers at most. Do the math (and no, its not 5 or 6 x 12%). Quote: When it comes to small gangs you can't afford to but 2 ECCM on all ships. Your alternative to win a small gang fight is to bring your own falcon. In big fights falcons doesn't make that much impact if ppl fit ECCM and have counter of their own. But in small gang pvp a falcon wins the fight. Long and short of it is, if you dont tank against ECM how do you expect to counter it? Its like not having a point to pin someone down with and then moaning that they keep warping off.
shamai	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:04:00 - [16] Originally by: yrknat Edited by: yrknat on 04/01/2009 09:53:06 If a falcon wants to jam you, hes going to do it. However, fitting eccm means hes gonna have to put more of his jammers on you to reliably keep you out of the fight, meaning less jammers to spread around to your gangmates. Eccm is also really helpful against ecm drones. I see where your going but its not at all a guarantee, suggesting that is the case just feeds the imbeciles that dont understand probability
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Try again man. A falcon with ALL its jammers on say a harbinger with 3 ECCM will have 45% chance to jam it. so it doesn't work HALF of the time. just as I said. I did say high sensor strength so maybe I should use a BS as an example where the chance is about 35-40%. but if it only has 2 ECCM the chance of jamming such a BS is 60% so its more then half the time. Unless dedicating 3 med slots to counter ONE ship you will find your ship locked out of a fight more then 50% of the time. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
shamai	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:07:00 - [18] Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Try again man. A falcon with ALL its jammers on say a harbinger with 3 ECCM will have 45% chance to jam it. so it doesn't work HALF of the time. just as I said. I did say high sensor strength so maybe I should use a BS as an example where the chance is about 35-40%. but if it only has 2 ECCM the chance of jamming such a BS is 60% so its more then half the time. Unless dedicating 3 med slots to counter ONE ship you will find your ship locked out of a fight more then 50% of the time. Your basing this calculation on how many jamming modules?
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:11:00 - [19] Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Try again man. A falcon with ALL its jammers on say a harbinger with 3 ECCM will have 45% chance to jam it. so it doesn't work HALF of the time. just as I said. I did say high sensor strength so maybe I should use a BS as an example where the chance is about 35-40%. but if it only has 2 ECCM the chance of jamming such a BS is 60% so its more then half the time. Unless dedicating 3 med slots to counter ONE ship you will find your ship locked out of a fight more then 50% of the time. Your basing this calculation on how many jamming modules? 2 racial and 4 non racial One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
shamai	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:16:00 - [20] Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it?
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:24:00 - [21] 2 hardeners still give you the benefit at all times not chance based. Just as dampeners was guaranteed to work so was their counter. Also all other ewar is chance based when it comes to the ranges falcons operate at. infact most ewar doesn't even work at those ranges. The argument against damps was that it could lock down a single ship and it couldn't do anything. With ECM and locktimes considered this is also true if the ship doesn't fit to counter it. If it does fit to counter it you still find yourself jammed often. In a big gang where everyone can fit some eccm facing a falcon sure it will have its effectiveness reduced a lot. But in smaller gangs fitting eccm might be to a great cost and the falcon still can take out 1-2 of your ships from the fight even with ECCM fitted. the difference between a warp jammer or hardener and a eccm mod is that the jammer always prevent the target from warping of. The hardener always mitigate dmg. However even with one ECCM 2 racial jammers jam you 60% of the time in a BS. Add the fact that it takes some 7sec to lock, and you are not able to have lock on your target 13 out of 40sec. in a cruiser, frig, BC its way worse. not everyone flies a BS you know. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
shamai	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:30:00 - [22] Originally by: General Coochie 2 hardeners still give you the benefit at all times not chance based. Just as dampeners was guaranteed to work so was their counter. Also all other ewar is chance based when it comes to the ranges falcons operate at. infact most ewar doesn't even work at those ranges. The argument against damps was that it could lock down a single ship and it couldn't do anything. With ECM and locktimes considered this is also true if the ship doesn't fit to counter it. If it does fit to counter it you still find yourself jammed often. In a big gang where everyone can fit some eccm facing a falcon sure it will have its effectiveness reduced a lot. But in smaller gangs fitting eccm might be to a great cost and the falcon still can take out 1-2 of your ships from the fight even with ECCM fitted. the difference between a warp jammer or hardener and a eccm mod is that the jammer always prevent the target from warping of. The hardener always mitigate dmg. However even with one ECCM 2 racial jammers jam you 60% of the time in a BS. Add the fact that it takes some 7sec to lock, and you are not able to have lock on your target 13 out of 40sec. in a cruiser, frig, BC its way worse. not everyone flies a BS you know. Racial jammers are more effective, but totally nerf you against 3 of the 4 races. Its a very high price to pay, but its pays when you know your opponent....then again if you know them they know you... Still its chance based. If you want to suggest another way of doing it with a guaranteed result either way im all ears. I rather suspect that you will want the rather expensive T2 ship to be mothballed into oblivion.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:39:00 - [23] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 12:46:20 Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it? Ok lets take this scenario as an example. a 4vs4. 4BC vs 3BC and a falcon. Lets assume the falcon has 3 racials to use and one non racial against the other gang according to ship types. Everyone in the 4 man BC gang has ECCM fitted. The falcon will still jam 3 of those BC half the time and one 15% of the time. SO it will reduce that gangs effective dps by about time jammed + lock time ~ 25. 25/40 = 62.5%. and lets say that the BC thats has a 15% chance to be jammed does not ever get jammed. This means that the 4 man gang with BCs have their dps reduced by about 50%. So the falcon can efficiently reduce a 4man gangs dps with 50%. Now keep in mind that this gang did even fit to counter the falcon. if they hadn't the reduction in dps would be closer to 80-90%. Sorry but there aint no other mod or ship in this game that can reduce 4 ships efficiency in one area by 50% when the ships are trying to counter it. No I do like EWAR I hate to see it nerfed into uselessness. (I always flown ewar ships myself) But the other recons cant even compare to the falcon. Either boost them a bit and make EWAR really powerful in this game in general or bring down the falcon a bit. Actually I do think that the falcon might be all ok as it is. But I do think the counter should be more effective, make ECCM MUCH more effective. There are even thread about nerfing TDs, yes they are powerful, but tbh TDs can never measure to ECM. Maybe you fear that boosting ECCM will make it so just one ECCM on every ship makes ECM useless. But thats how it should be IMO. Now if they boosted dampeners a bit and made that viable as EWAR ppl would have to fit to counter both damps and ECCM. Or choose one. That would make the game much more variated and fluid rather to focus on counter ONE ship. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.01.04 14:47:00 - [24] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 12:51:42 Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 12:49:11 Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 12:46:20 Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it? Ok lets take this scenario as an example. a 4vs4. 4BC vs 3BC and a falcon. Lets assume the falcon has 3 racials to use and one non racial against the other gang according to ship types. Everyone in the 4 man BC gang has ECCM fitted. The falcon will still jam 3 of those BC half the time and one 15% of the time. SO it will reduce that gangs effective dps by about time jammed + lock time ~ 25. 25/40 = 62.5%. and lets say that the BC thats has a 15% chance to be jammed does not ever get jammed. This means that the 4 man gang with BCs have their dps reduced by about 50%. So the falcon can efficiently reduce a 4man gangs dps with 50%. Now keep in mind that this gang did even fit to counter the falcon. if they hadn't the reduction in dps would be closer to 80-90%. Sorry but there aint no other mod or ship in this game that can reduce 4 ships efficiency in one area by 50% when the ships are trying to counter it. No I do like EWAR I hate to see it nerfed into uselessness. (I always flown ewar ships myself) But the other recons cant even compare to the falcon. Either boost them a bit and make EWAR really powerful in this game in general or bring down the falcon a bit. Actually I do think that the falcon might be all ok as it is. But I do think the counter should be more effective, make ECCM MUCH more effective. There are even thread about nerfing TDs!? Maybe you fear that boosting ECCM will make it so just one ECCM on every ship makes ECM useless. But thats how it should be IMO. Now if they boosted dampeners a bit and made that viable as EWAR ppl would have to fit to counter both damps and ECCM. Or choose one. That would make the game much more variated and fluid rather to focus on how to counter ONE ship. Can i remind you if the 4 BC gang is all the same race then the Falcon will reduce incoming DPS by 25% (3 BC's vrs 3 BC's). But i think 4 HAC's vrs 3 HAC's and a Falcon might be a better scenario to run the numbers with (as they are all T2 ships with similar skill requirements).
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:21:00 - [25] Edited by: NeoTheo on 04/01/2009 16:24:38 Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it? hows he dead with s specilist fit? dont talk out your arse. he is miles away from the fight, once he is locked up and shot at, he warps off and comes back cloaked up ready to come back out at the appropriate time. of course math and actaully learning how to fly are 2 different things. ECM its self isnt the issue imo, the issue is the falcon specifically. nobody is *****ing about rooks. and oh, hello corpie ;) - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:26:00 - [26] Originally by: NeoTheo Edited by: NeoTheo on 04/01/2009 16:23:17 Edited by: NeoTheo on 04/01/2009 16:21:41 Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it? hows he dead with s specilist fit? dont talk out your arse. he is miles away from the fight, once he is locked up and shot at, he warps off and comes back cloaked up ready to come back out at the appropriate time. of course math and actaully learning how to fly are 2 different things. ECM its self isnt the issue imo, the issue is the falcon specifically. nobody is *****ing about rooks. ECM is the issue (for the nerf whiners), they aren't talking about rooks because we like the convience of the cov-ops cloak; take that away and we'll put improved cloaking devices on Rooks and there will be the same whines.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:27:00 - [27] Originally by: daisy dook ECM is the issue (for the nerf whiners), they aren't talking about rooks because we like the convience of the cov-ops cloak; take that away and we'll put improved cloaking devices on Rooks and there will be the same whines. good luck with that, youll have a 6 second delay on targeting, ****ty scan res and will get primz0rd before you lock. - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:33:00 - [28] Edited by: Murina on 04/01/2009 16:34:58 Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: daisy dook ECM is the issue (for the nerf whiners), they aren't talking about rooks because we like the convience of the cov-ops cloak; take that away and we'll put improved cloaking devices on Rooks and there will be the same whines. good luck with that, youll have a 6 second delay on targeting, ****ty scan res and will get primz0rd before you lock. Thats actually rather doubtful as the ppl crying about falcon/ecm have no intention and never have had of even trying to fit to combat it either with eccm or sensor boosters to be able to lock that far out. They want it nerfed cos the gangs they run in are all short range fitted RR or gank squads... Its much easier to spam the forums with pathetic thread after thread hoping it will give ccp the impression there's lots of support for the issue. Although its amusing to note that the threads tend to rarely get over a couple of pages and are full off ppl giving advise on how to deal with falcons/ecm and showing that they are fine as they are.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: daisy dook ECM is the issue (for the nerf whiners), they aren't talking about rooks because we like the convience of the cov-ops cloak; take that away and we'll put improved cloaking devices on Rooks and there will be the same whines. good luck with that, youll have a 6 second delay on targeting, ****ty scan res and will get primz0rd before you lock. Thats actually rather doubtful as the ppl crying about falcon/ecm have no intention and never have had of even trying to fit to combat it either with eccm or sensor booster to lock that far out. Its much easier to spam the forums with pathetic thread after thread hoping it will give ccp the impression theres lots of support for the issue. Although its amusing to note that the threads tend to rarely get over a couple of pages and are full off ppl giving advise on how to deal with falcons/ecm and showing that they are fine as they are. i didnt have a problem with any of this untill they buffed the falcon mate, when it was fine in the first place. - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:41:00 - [30] Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: Murina Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: daisy dook ECM is the issue (for the nerf whiners), they aren't talking about rooks because we like the convience of the cov-ops cloak; take that away and we'll put improved cloaking devices on Rooks and there will be the same whines. good luck with that, youll have a 6 second delay on targeting, ****ty scan res and will get primz0rd before you lock. Thats actually rather doubtful as the ppl crying about falcon/ecm have no intention and never have had of even trying to fit to combat it either with eccm or sensor booster to lock that far out. Its much easier to spam the forums with pathetic thread after thread hoping it will give ccp the impression theres lots of support for the issue. Although its amusing to note that the threads tend to rarely get over a couple of pages and are full off ppl giving advise on how to deal with falcons/ecm and showing that they are fine as they are. i didnt have a problem with any of this untill they buffed the falcon mate, when it was fine in the first place. besides, 20 seconds is a long time to be f00ked in a fight, even if your chance of getting said f00ked is low. ;) I flew cloaking BS bud and you sit in a SS and warpin when you have targets due to the prevalence of titans among other things so the locking delay is marginal at best especially when your flying a cruiser sized hull like a recon.

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