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goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.07 23:19:00 - [31] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 07/01/2009 23:17:45 Originally by: goodby4u Though this brings me to ask, cant our kinetic rounds currently penetrate most non chobham armor? If so, why use DU rounds anyways? Uhhh, DU is a kinetic round. It just has incindindiary properties as well that happen to be ideal. Yeah was about to return to say HEAT round, epic brain fart tbh.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar MasterBlasters Inc. CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2009.01.07 23:21:00 - [32] Other countries are just jealous that they don't use it
Ashvul Amarr XenoTech The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2009.01.08 01:53:00 - [33] This thread is amusing. As someone who works next to a whole lot of uranium, I'd like to dispel a few misconceptions: The Geiger counter that the guy uses on the tank's turret pegs out at 3 mrem/hr, which is next to nothing as far as exposure goes. Like someone else said, the legal limit is 5000 mrem/year (for a radiation worker over the age of 18), for non-radiation workers under the age of 18 it would be 1/10th of that at 500 mrem/year. As for the activity of depleted uranium, it is most certainly not "lead," however it does have a fairly low level of activity compared to naturally occurring uranium due to the lesser amount of U-235 and U-234 present (U-235/234 have a much smaller half-life than U-238 and therefore will emit an alpha particle more frequently). Alpha radiation will do more biological damage than beta/gamma radiation, which would cause it to read higher on Geiger counter, but it is stopped by the dead layer of skin due to it's large mass and electrostatic charge. The only way alpha particles can damage live tissue is through an open wound or if an alpha emitter is ingested/inhaled. Any loose uranium oxide residue inside of tanks could potentially cause such internal contamination, but simply holding or being near a piece of depleted uranium will have little to no health effects at all. My favorite part is when this German professor is carrying the DU round all over the city to find out if it is radioactive, carrying it in what appears to be a leather bag, and holding it directly on his crotch.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.08 05:20:00 - [34] I see many posts missing the point. I sat right through the entire video although the radioactivity was tested, it was not considered the main problem, but merely an indicator. The problem they mentioned was the Uranium dust which was present in the soil samples. AS this dust gets blown around by the wind, it can be inhaled and ingested, contaminating water which is also ingested. DU rounds are not a danger unless you're looking down the the wrong end of the barrel, the Uranium is sealed and unable to be touched. What does pose a danger is the toxic nature of the dust and minute fragments from it that can be ingested, inhaled and absorbed through open wounds. What about the reports of Plutonium use in some rounds? Radiation from Plutonium is deadly. If it really was safe, why have guys in suits with breathing gear taking those tanks away that the guys were repairing? I guess the high levels of cancer victims, deformed children and such are just natural occurrences are they? Finally, there is no such thing as safe levels of radioactivity. The maximum safe level is zero and I think all weapons using radioactive materials should be universally outlawed, that includes nukes. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.08 05:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Finally, there is no such thing as safe levels of radioactivity. The maximum safe level is zero and I think all weapons using radioactive materials should be universally outlawed, that includes nukes. but..but...if we get rid of nukes, what will we launch form orbit?
Kyrall A Few Killers	Posted - 2009.01.08 09:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Finally, there is no such thing as safe levels of radioactivity. The maximum safe level is zero. How about levels that are completely insignificant compared to natural background radiation that you can do nothing about? Non-zero, and you really can't argue that they add any risk whatsoever. Besides, an alpha source that is sat 50cm away from me is 100% safe. There is absolutely nothing it can do to me (unless I decide to eat it). Radiation can be completely safe.
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.01.08 11:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Ashvul This thread is amusing. As someone who works next to a whole lot of uranium, I'd like to dispel a few misconceptions: The Geiger counter that the guy uses on the tank's turret pegs out at 3 mrem/hr, which is next to nothing as far as exposure goes. Like someone else said, the legal limit is 5000 mrem/year (for a radiation worker over the age of 18), for non-radiation workers under the age of 18 it would be 1/10th of that at 500 mrem/year. As for the activity of depleted uranium, it is most certainly not "lead," however it does have a fairly low level of activity compared to naturally occurring uranium due to the lesser amount of U-235 and U-234 present (U-235/234 have a much smaller half-life than U-238 and therefore will emit an alpha particle more frequently). Alpha radiation will do more biological damage than beta/gamma radiation, which would cause it to read higher on Geiger counter, but it is stopped by the dead layer of skin due to it's large mass and electrostatic charge. The only way alpha particles can damage live tissue is through an open wound or if an alpha emitter is ingested/inhaled. Any loose uranium oxide residue inside of tanks could potentially cause such internal contamination, but simply holding or being near a piece of depleted uranium will have little to no health effects at all. My favorite part is when this German professor is carrying the DU round all over the city to find out if it is radioactive, carrying it in what appears to be a leather bag, and holding it directly on his crotch. 3 mrem/hr... that is 26280 mrem/y Very large increases in cancer rates in Serbia/Iraq, the Gulf syndrome or whatever... etcetc I agree that this documentary isn't exactly well presented, as it lacks a lot of crucial statistics... My favorite part was, when the doctor was fined for carrying a single DU round, yet it is perfectly normal to use it in the military??
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.08 14:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Kyrall Originally by: Dantes Revenge Finally, there is no such thing as safe levels of radioactivity. The maximum safe level is zero. How about levels that are completely insignificant compared to natural background radiation that you can do nothing about? Non-zero, and you really can't argue that they add any risk whatsoever. Besides, an alpha source that is sat 50cm away from me is 100% safe. There is absolutely nothing it can do to me (unless I decide to eat it). Radiation can be completely safe. Which is fine holding it 50cm away, but when your kids are playing outside and end up inhaling DU dust, thats probably not good. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2009.01.08 15:07:00 - [39] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 3 mrem/hr... that is 26280 mrem/y Very large increases in cancer rates in Serbia/Iraq, the Gulf syndrome or whatever... etcetc You're assuming people are sleeping on top of these tanks. Theyre not (maybe). They probably stay well away. DU ammo probably isn't healthy, but not nearly as bad as getting shot. If it gives your soldiers an advantage over the enemy, you can bet it saved at least a couple american lives. Besides, these people should just be happy they didn't leave antipersonnel landmines everywhere this time.
Sean Hernandez	Posted - 2009.01.08 17:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Brea Lafail Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 3 mrem/hr... that is 26280 mrem/y Very large increases in cancer rates in Serbia/Iraq, the Gulf syndrome or whatever... etcetc You're assuming people are sleeping on top of these tanks. Theyre not (maybe). They probably stay well away. DU ammo probably isn't healthy, but not nearly as bad as getting shot. If it gives your soldiers an advantage over the enemy, you can bet it saved at least a couple american lives. Besides, these people should just be happy they didn't leave antipersonnel landmines everywhere this time. You're assuming vehicles that have been hit by this ammunition do not: a) explode b) have secondary fires ignited c) both Which will maximise the dispersal of any dust produced by the intial impact. Additionally with the chemicals used in military hardware and ammunition, what kind of reactions could take place between the uranium and the combusintg gas mix created in a high temperature fire which any destroyed tank rapidly becomes?
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2009.01.08 19:06:00 - [41] damn you OP this kind of thing make me hate us more blah
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2009.01.08 20:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Sean Hernandez You're assuming vehicles that have been hit by this ammunition do not: a) explode b) have secondary fires ignited c) both Which will maximise the dispersal of any dust produced by the intial impact. Additionally with the chemicals used in military hardware and ammunition, what kind of reactions could take place between the uranium and the combusintg gas mix created in a high temperature fire which any destroyed tank rapidly becomes? He had a geiger counter in the middle of a field full of busted tanks. It only shooped its whoop when put right up to a bullet hole. It's not like they're setting off nukes, there won't be a generation of children killed off bu leukemia. Unless the uranium is turning into some sort of water soluble compound, I don't think you need worry about chemical reactions. If it is becoming water soluble, patent it, sell to uranium industry, richer than Bill Gates.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.08 21:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Brea Lafail He had a geiger counter in the middle of a field full of busted tanks. It only shooped its whoop when put right up to a bullet hole. It's not like they're setting off nukes, there won't be a generation of children killed off bu leukemia. Unless the uranium is turning into some sort of water soluble compound, I don't think you need worry about chemical reactions. If it is becoming water soluble, patent it, sell to uranium industry, richer than Bill Gates. But it is in the soil in the form of dust which is blown around and inhaled. People are making too much of an issue about the geiger counter. He used that to show that the tanks had indeed been destroyed using DU rounds and that the surrounding are was contaminated by DU residue. The level of radiation is irrelevant in this case as it has already been established that the type or radiation given off is insignificant, if you can call any radiation insignificant that is. Once in the form of dust, it can be blown around and spread over vast areas. This presents a hazard for anyone who may consider breathing is a worthwhile passtime. Much like lead, it is completely harmless until it gets inside the body. Not being a chemist, I am not sure if Uranium can dissolve or otherwise contaminate water. If it can, then just like lead, why wouldn't it be possible to contaminate a water supply? He did show that the water from the Ice Factory was contaminated so I presume it's possible, although he did take it from the ground where dust around the nearby destroyed tank could have been the cause of the contamination. Therefore, I'd say the results of that test are a little inconclusive. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.01.08 22:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Dantes Revenge ...if you can call any radiation insignificant that is. Sure you can. You are positively bathed in it daily. Indeed you can hardly get away from it. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.09 00:18:00 - [45] A geiger counter is pretty useless if the risk is from alpha source ingestion from a transient source (eg the smoke plume from an exploding or burning tank at a certain point in the combustion process). A victim might drive through it in a couple of seconds, but inhaling particles of the right size could prove deadly. You might test it a few minutes later and find nothing special. There are undocumented anecdotal claims that Soviet soldiers returned from the 80s Afghan war with symptoms similar to Gulf War Syndrome. I do not know whether the Soviet military used depleted uranium, probably not at the time, more likely it was caused by poisoning from mishandling hydrazine, radium, PCBs, pesticides, all sorts of industrial chemicals best not left in the hands of inadequately trained personnel. Maybe the allies were simply careless with some hazardous materials nobody uses any more, or which were not treated with respect at the time.
Deira Lenia The Chaotic Order Void.	Posted - 2009.01.09 12:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Kyrall Originally by: Dantes Revenge Finally, there is no such thing as safe levels of radioactivity. The maximum safe level is zero. How about levels that are completely insignificant compared to natural background radiation that you can do nothing about? Non-zero, and you really can't argue that they add any risk whatsoever. Besides, an alpha source that is sat 50cm away from me is 100% safe. There is absolutely nothing it can do to me (unless I decide to eat it). Radiation can be completely safe. This is correct and incorrect. I've been issued DU 7.62 NATO for the last 6 years, and indeed. It is not harmfull to your health wile your carrying it around. It gets harmfull once you fire. The various gasses and dust that gets ejected with the shell are radiated, and breathable. Incases of repeated fire from the same position you will be sitting in a "cloud" of gas and dust which is packed by radiation particles. This cloud, is toxic and deadly, if your breathing in too much of it. This is where it starts to get complicated aswell. Depending on the amount of air you can suck into your lungs, the amount of red/white bloodcells and the amount of oxygen they carry. will make such clouds deadly or not deadly to particular people. The bigger the size of your lungs and the more red/white bloodcells. The bigger the chance gets on intoxication. The chances on this are also different per weapon used. A AR (.50's, SAW's etc.) use alot more ammunition from the same location then a R (m4's. m16's), and has a higher chance on getting intoxicated. DU rounds are safe as they can be really, its once they are fired that the actual problem starts. Oh, on a note because im sure people will bring it up. It is fairly impossible to pollute complete areas with radiation made by DU ammunition, the radiation levels are too low and degrade in 10-15 years after production (or i've been told anyway). So we wont see Chernobyl type kids being born out of the current combat zones, as officialy there shouldnt be enough radiation. Although, and this is my personal but, i'm not aware on if the radiation, dust or gasses, could toxicate water or food supplies, or over time adapt the ecosystem. Im not a scientist, i just fire the ammo.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.11 20:22:00 - [47] Using geiger counter to determine dangers of uranium is pretty pointless as DU is not as much radioactive as it is toxic. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.11 22:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Ashvul This thread is amusing. As someone who works next to a whole lot of uranium, I'd like to dispel a few misconceptions: The Geiger counter that the guy uses on the tank's turret pegs out at 3 mrem/hr, which is next to nothing as far as exposure goes. Like someone else said, the legal limit is 5000 mrem/year (for a radiation worker over the age of 18), for non-radiation workers under the age of 18 it would be 1/10th of that at 500 mrem/year. As for the activity of depleted uranium, it is most certainly not "lead," however it does have a fairly low level of activity compared to naturally occurring uranium due to the lesser amount of U-235 and U-234 present (U-235/234 have a much smaller half-life than U-238 and therefore will emit an alpha particle more frequently). Alpha radiation will do more biological damage than beta/gamma radiation, which would cause it to read higher on Geiger counter, but it is stopped by the dead layer of skin due to it's large mass and electrostatic charge. The only way alpha particles can damage live tissue is through an open wound or if an alpha emitter is ingested/inhaled. Any loose uranium oxide residue inside of tanks could potentially cause such internal contamination, but simply holding or being near a piece of depleted uranium will have little to no health effects at all. My favorite part is when this German professor is carrying the DU round all over the city to find out if it is radioactive, carrying it in what appears to be a leather bag, and holding it directly on his crotch. FINALLY! A single post in this thread that isn't completely full of CRAP! THANK YOU ASHVUL! That being said, micro fine DU dust that is inhaled is an alpha emitter, and it does irradiate lung tissue quite well. LOL@ the guy sitting with the bag on his crotch with the 'radioactive' round in it lol. I was an x-ray technician (medical that is) in the military for six years. I know a thing or two about occupational exposure to radiation, and while DU is only slightly more radioactive than background, inhaling a bunch of DU dust will kill you soonish. The DU dust's alpha and beta particles are readily absorbed by lung tissue. I think it's funny as hell that the movie shows all this footage of random explosions, people loading 155mm artillery rounds into howitzers, hellfire missiles hitting tanks etc. All of which have nothing to do with DU rounds. DU is used in only a very few types of rounds, most of which are 120mm ammunition for the M1 tank, and 25mm ammo for the M2's 25mm main gun. DU is good for a kinetic energy round because in addition to being super dense and super hard it is also pyrophoric, which means that it burns spontaneously when it vaporizes after hitting a target. The amount of crap being spewed in this thread by people who don't know what they're talking about is hilarious. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Louis deGuerre Gallente Public Funded War Targets	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:20:00 - [49] Why use this unhealthy ammo anyway ? It's not like anyone in Iraq has tanks. It's like using nukes to hunt deer. Probably cheaper to use it there than storing it somewhere in the USA.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Louis deGuerre Why use this unhealthy ammo anyway ? It's not like anyone in Iraq has tanks. It's like using nukes to hunt deer. Probably cheaper to use it there than storing it somewhere in the USA. Yet another post by someone who doesn't know anything about the issue, DU, or anything else related to the subject. When will it end?
Gneeznow Minmatar Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:25:00 - [51] yeehaw gonna kill me some skinny's with ma nukular bullets then pretend thems bullets is harmless
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar MasterBlasters Inc. CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:40:00 - [52] Bottom line is... we use it because it's damn effective
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.12 01:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Gneeznow yeehaw gonna kill me some skinny's with ma nukular bullets then pretend thems bullets is harmless Iraq isn't Somalia. You're totally using the wrong slang. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

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