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Charlotte Otaared
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.06 18:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 06/01/2009 18:53:15
Well I did some wired calculations today, which I wanna share with you ...
I am an Anshar pilot already, can fly a Rorqual soon and of course can fly Viators (Gallente Blockade Runners) for quite some time now. Due to the changes, that also Transports are (or: will be) able to jump with Black-Ops I got interested in comparing the "jump costs per m3" between these three ships. (BTW: can anybod confirm me, that itæs already reallity, that transports can jump with Black-Ops? Not sure about that)
For many reasons I am interested to be able to use any hauling method available in the game and to be honest the new Black-Ops / Transports combo got me really excited.
Itæs of course about costs one the one hand ...
First of all it makes of course sense to compare the äCost per Jumped m3ô based on the jump-fuel you will burn.
With a Black-Ops and the the skill äJump Drive Calibrationô on level 4 you can jump at max. 4LY. Therefore I decided to compare everything based on this distance.
What will also be import are the jump-fuel reducing skills. Letæs also assume they are at level 4. (Jump Fuel Conservation and the Jump-Freighters skill itself)
More over letæs work with the following cargohold assumptions:
Viator: 10.000m3
Rorqual: 120.000m3
Anshar: 350.000m3
(so Viator and Rorqual pimped with Cargo Rigs and Expanders T2)
The ships consume the following amount of racial isotopes to jump a 4LY distance with skills as mentioned above:
Viator: 1.000 Units
Rorqual: 2.500 Units
Anshar: 4.500 Units
Numbers are a bit rounded for easier calculations. I will not (yet) take into account, that in the case of the Viator the Black-Ops itself maybe need to jump itself and then needs again the same amount of isotopes to follow him)
So, based on a average price of 240 ISK for a racial isotopes unit, one jump in one direction costs you:
Viator: 240.000 ISK
Rorqual: 600.000 ISK
Anshar: 1.080.000 ISK
Letæs ignore the Liquid Ozone costs here for the cyno. Based on this numbers we can say now, that jumping one m3 (assumption works with 100% full cargoholds) costs you:
Viator: 24 ISK / 1 m3
Rorqual: 5 ISK / 1 m3
Anshar: 3,1 ISK / 1m3
So I think that isnæt surprising. Everything else would have made me think ;) If you have a full cargohold the Anshar is the most cost effective ship based on jump-fuel cost per m3, compared to a Rorqual and of course the Viator.
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Charlotte Otaared
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.06 18:47:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 06/01/2009 18:55:54
... but itæs also about initial investment costs and risks!
But let us look at it from another perspecitve: How much money do you have initially to invest to get started and how much ISK can you loose?
For that letæs work with a scenario, which is reallity for me: I live in a smaller high-sec region which is surrounded by low-sec and 0.0 - therefore I have no chance to safely travel to high-sec tradehubs with a hauler, without jumping.
Luckily I found a jump-route with is pretty close to 4LY which works in both directions in a äHigh-Sec to Low-Secô way. That of course doesnæt work for the Rorqual, which can only move around in Non-High-Sec Systems, but the Anshar and the Viator+Blackops will be able to jump from High-Sec to Low-Sec.
Therefore I created (an even realistic) scenario, that I will have two Black-Ops and two Covert-Cyno Alts, which create my very own äMobile-Jump-Bridgeô network. The big advantage is:
the expensive Black-Ops can remain in High-Sec to create the Jump-Bridge.
The Black-Ops donæt have to follow the Viator to bridge it back in the other direction
Working with this assumption we have the following inital investment costs:
Viator: 1B ISK (two blackops a 475M + one viator for 50M)
Rorqual: 1,7B ISK
Anshar: 4,5B ISK
So the difference between Viator and Rorqual option isnæt that massive, BUT the Rorqual is out of the game here, because it canæt enter High-Sec. The Anshar cost more than four times the money and is maybe for a lot of corps also an quite massive investment.
And now letæs also talk about risks:
The Anshar you can could lose everytime you jump to low-sec or 0.0 - that would be a massive lost!
In case of the Viator+Black-Ops combo, you only jump your 50M ISK ship into low-sec and 0.0 - BUT your Black-Ops could of course also be targets of suicide ganking in high-sec. But I would say if you behave as carefully as you would do in low-sec/0.0 that not very likely.
I now did some rough extrapolations to find out, how much m3 you have to move, that the Anshar solutions becomes cheaper in terms of overall-costs. (investment + jump-fuel costs)
That of course ignores the fact, that itæs much much more comfortable to use the Anshar, instead of jumping 35 times with an Viator to move the same amount ;) (and that everything bigger like a cruiser canæt be transported at all)
And it also the ignores the factor - which will be in reallity quite important: that you will have to jump back with an empty cargohold with a Viator much more often, then with the other two ships. So this calculation are one-way only!
When you have jumped the crazy amount of about 200 Million m3 (in one direction) you have spent overall:
Viator: 5,85 Billion ISK
Anshar: 5,12 Billion ISK
That is equal to
Viator: 20.000 Jumps
Anshar: 571 Jumps
:D Of course both with a full cargohold at every single jump. If this äjumping from high-secô isnæt important for you, let me tell you when the Rorqual gets more cost effective: After about 50 Million m3 ;)
Viator: 2,25 Billion ISK (5.000 Jumps)
Rorqual: 1,95 Billion ISK (417 Jumps)
So a lot sooner than if you compare it with the Anshar. So letæs face it ... that is still a pretty unrealistic scenario, because who would do so many jumps with Viators?
What I havenæt taken into account here is the time needed of course. The Viators will have to dock load und unload their cargoholds much much more often, than the two other ships and also more pilots have to bee involved to get the Mobile-Jump-Bridge Network running. (at least one more)
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Charlotte Otaared
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.06 18:47:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Charlotte Otaared on 06/01/2009 18:50:21
But I think there is a niche for this Viator+Black-Ops scenario
Well, I am still impressed by for how long the Viator + Black-Ops solution is more cost effective, than the other two options. Even if you will factor in the much more empty jumps back to pickup more stuff, it would be more cost effective for quite a long time. (Until 100 Million m3 moved)
I also see a big plus due to three reasons:
- the initial investment you have to made is much less than an Anshar
- if you take into account that the expensive Black-Ops can remain in high-sec the risk is reduced quite massively
- you have a much more flexible investment, especially compared with the
Anshar
Sure - the Rorqual can of course also do quite interesting other stuff for industrial/mining corps - but the Anshar is a pure hauler who can jump.
But with this two Black-Ops, which you use right now only as Mini-Jump-Bridge Network you can do quite a few other funny things.
Therefore I would seriously recommend you - especially as a corp who is maybe not as that big - to calculate how much stuff you really have to jump each week and what kind of stuff that is. (how much minimum m3 needed per item)
Especially if I look at smaller mining corps for example, which maybe operates in an area, where you also would want to have this jump ability to avoid dangerous low-sec/0.0 areas, to i.e. get your minerals up to the empire trade-hubs and to get new Hulks and other Equipment down to your home - that could be an interesting solution!
If you have a handfull Viator pilots in your corp and the two needed Black-Ops pilots this can be very nice operations in my eyes - and letæs face it: Eve is much better, if you can do things together ;)
So I hope I could help you a bit with my calculation and this post on forums!
Disclaimer: Well I wasnæt that good in math back in school. So if I have a mistake in here, please tell me and I will correct it. But I hope not!
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Charlotte Otaared
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.06 18:48:00 -
[4]
reserved
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Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.01.06 19:10:00 -
[5]
Have to factor in oppertunity cost, it is much more time consuming to jump such high volumes in the viator than the other ships. However these numbers to suprise me somewhat :)
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.01.06 19:49:00 -
[6]
In almost all situations where you would actually want to jump your destination is above 4.5 ly mark so you would need to do multiple jumps in black ops or ships bridged with that. Only location I personally know of where black ops might be somewhat useful is Torrinos - Pure Blind area where you can reach the NPC sov consellations with black ops bridge.
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Ahandreja
Caldari
Radio Maryja - Hard Rock Station
C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:43:00 -
[7]
Well, you forget about 30k space available in rorqual in corporate hangar... That makes 150k cargo space, including almost 7k reserve for jump fuel.
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:02:00 -
[8]
The BO can fire up the jump bridge in high sec? 
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 00:03:00 -
[9]
Here is one way blockade runners would make sense to use them: If you want to POS spam into another alliance space.
Bring in 30 of them and anchor and online POS's before the opposition knows what is happening.
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.01.07 00:13:00 -
[10]
If it's an empty system, a jump freight works better. If it's a busy system, they'll be scanning for you long before a tower anchors.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.01.07 06:37:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Lui Kai
The BO can fire up the jump bridge in high sec?
You can jump out of it, same as jump freighters. Can't make cyno in there tho so for backwards trip it's either conventional way or finding some low sec / zerozero system where to light that cyno.
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Neddy Fox
Gallente
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.07 09:42:00 -
[12]
The Viator/BO combo also needs a recon or covops fitted with a covop cyno generator. You're talking 4 characters here, which have to be paid for.
The Anshar only needs one cheap disposible alt (1 week training) and can jump back to your cyno generators without cyno alt.
BtW : BO's are going to be buffed. Word for now is :
-Fuelbay
-Higher range for the portal.
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[PXIN Recruiter]
PXIN Recruitement thread |
Charlotte Otaared
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:41:00 -
[13]
Thanks for your replies!
@Atima - absolutely, I also mentioned it somehwere in my post, that you also have to take into account, that of course the Viator solutions takes much more time to haule for example one full cargohold of an Anshar
@Carniflex - well I am not sure, if that's really always the case. I have already now more than a handful nice routes for me discovered where even the 4 LY are enough for me.
@Ahandreja - oh you are right. Shame on me. Of course there is also the corporate hangar in the Rorqual. And even the bay for ships, which you could take into account if you need to move ships which are allowed to put in there.
@Lui Kai - Yes, BO can fire the Bridge in High-Sec.
@Fitz VonHeise - that's also a very interesting idea I haven't thought of, yet!
@Neddy Fox - yeah I also mentioned in my post, that this combo needs more pilots involved. But I think you don't need the accounts for this four chars all by your own, but maybe you will find corp mates for that, who already fly cov-ops and/or recons. More over you not necessarily need a covert-cyno for that. Depends on the secruity situation in the low-sec/0.0 destination system in my eyes.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:31:00 -
[14]
Note also that as far as black ops go they can use also regular cynos and cyno generators (the same you can anchor at pos if you have sov in the area). If you want to do it all yourself then 3 accounts would do. A black ops, a blocade runner and one account with at least 2 cyno alts (or in extreme case 1 of em that flies to wherever you need him). |
Neddy Fox
Gallente
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.07 14:22:00 -
[15]
That is new to me.. Can you use a Covert Jump Portal Generator to link to a normal Cynofield?
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Daemien Murdoc
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Posted - 2009.01.07 16:13:00 -
[16]
Rorqual cargo 126m3 + 30k m3 corphangar = 156k m3 cargohold
And dont forget Giant Secure Containers available for Rorqual ! Afaik freighters cant carry assembled containers. True that they are bit painful to use, but they do add 30% more cargo
Rorqual
150k m3 x 1.3 = 195.000m3
This is what Rorqual is capable to haul in theory if you reserve 6.000m3 for jump fuel
And the Rorqual has Ship Maintenance Bay too, altho it cant take combat ships.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.07 19:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Neddy Fox
That is new to me.. Can you use a Covert Jump Portal Generator to link to a normal Cynofield?
Yes. But you will still only be able to jump through ships that uses the covert technology, and ofc the cyno is visible seeing as it's a normal cyno. |
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.01.08 11:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Daemien Murdoc
Afaik freighters cant carry assembled containers. True that they are bit painful to use, but they do add 30% more cargo
Correct, freighters can't (GSCs) only freight containers, which don't offer expansion. However loading up 52 containers is going to be very very painful, and only recommended if you are going to be travelling a very long way, as it will often be far quicker to make 2 or even 3 trips without them instead if it's only a short jump or even jump+jump bridge away. And if your time is worth anything, the isk/m3 savings probably won't be.
They each have their purposes. Generally I prefer jump freighters as they can jump from highsec to 0.0 / lowsec direct, and unlike blockade runners, only require a cyno or jump beacon, not a black ops as well. Rorquals of course usually need the stuff transported to them in lowsec or from them to highsec etc. lowsec/0.0 > lowsec/0.0 they become more competitive.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.01.08 18:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lui Kai
If it's an empty system, a jump freight works better. If it's a busy system, they'll be scanning for you long before a tower anchors.
Just a note, you can't anchor and online a tower straight from a JF (I've tried to). The tower has to be online for a JF to jettison stuff or transfer fuel into it.
Oh, and nothing beats undocking your anshar in Jita 4-4 and jumping clear at the undock. It's a bit of a Cartman "screw you guys, going home.." moment. |
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