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Don't forget to fix the Black Ops

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Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.02.06 02:41:00 - [61] Originally by: Rhohan Originally by: Random Womble er you mean right now MWD+cloak+warp? which you cant do right now... This speaks volumes as to what you don't know, or what your are assuming... Ephemeron just happened to leave out one minor detail that someone who doesn't use this tactic on varius types of ships might not think of, and assume something else. What Ephemeron is talking about can be done at smaller gate camps with a BlackOps, but is very dangerous at larger ones, especially ones who know what they are doing. And come on guys/gals, have realistic expectations. You won't be disappointed so often. Since he did not mention uncloaking i decided to be pedantic and on larger gate camps your really going to srtuggle to survive using that.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:49:00 - [62] You do not use mwd+cloak trick with blackops, you use it with every ship without a cloak bonus. MWD+cloak trick takes 10 seconds to warp no matter what ship, from t1 hauler to battleship. Blackops warp in 4 seconds, the sin warps in 2.5s. You simply align, cloak, wait 2-4 seconds until you've reached ~50% of your cloaked velocity (which is >75% of your uncloaked velocity), decloak, and warp. The only thing that can stop you is a bubble, but you're a battleship and you won't get out of a bubble with a pulse from a MWD anyway. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:37:00 - [63] Quote: The only thing that can stop you is a bubble, but you're a battleship and you won't get out of a bubble with a pulse from a MWD anyway. Half the time you will. As opposed to never, without cloak speed bonus. Going from never to half the time is a major advantage, enough to justify spending extra money
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:59:00 - [64] Edited by: Random Womble on 06/02/2009 21:03:53 Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: The only thing that can stop you is a bubble, but you're a battleship and you won't get out of a bubble with a pulse from a MWD anyway. Half the time you will. As opposed to never, without cloak speed bonus. Going from never to half the time is a major advantage, enough to justify spending extra money hmm say it is actually 50% of the time ignoring the fact that i still maintain ti is completely illogical anyway that you should be jumping into a gate camp alone and i assume since you would not actually jump in normally your also unscouted (does this not start to sound a bit absurd for why the black ops bonus is useful or not yet). now lets assume you do take this suicidal approach and jump in now if it really is 50% of the time BO die and 100% of the time T1 BS dies that means every say 10 gate camps on average you will lose 1 bil (fittings/possibly some rigs + ship - insurance) for the T1 ships where as you will lose 2.5-3bil for all those BO that die. Yup clearly BO are worthwhile for that 50% chance. Now if you manage to avoid gatecamps all together and you actually get your ship where ever you will soon find that your T1 ship performs better than that BO that was just slightly less likely to die at a gate camp. Which means in combat the T1 ship will then be less likely to die. But then again this all ignores that BOs are not solo ships and should not be jumping around unscouted (neither should a T1 BS) Ephemeron i have talked to some NESW guys that agree with me also told me a story about one of the uses PL had for a black ops: PL gang trapped in a system by bruce (so before PL had titans) so PL jumps in a BO and a carrier or two with stealth bombers stored in ship maintanence, all the gang switch to stealthbombers and BO jump bridges them out. Only relavence is that it was a gang use and that there was absolutely no reason for the BO to be jumping through a gate hell it was being used to avoid a gate camp shock horror. On top of that kudos to the particular individual who came up with what really was quite an awesomely clever used of the BO jumpbridge.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:06:00 - [65] With that kind of reasoning, it sounds like Black Ops don't need any cloaking at all. Why would it? it never jumps into camps. It never goes alone. It isn't a pvp ship. It don't need cloak! And why bother with guns and tank? don't need those either, you'll always have a fleet to protect you
Incantare Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.07 00:16:00 - [66] The scan res penalty needs to go.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 00:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Incantare The scan res penalty needs to go. My thoughts exactly. A small but useful change, that doesn't create any issues for anyone
Rhohan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.07 01:39:00 - [68] Originally by: Rajere You do not use mwd+cloak trick with blackops, you use it with every ship without a cloak bonus. MWD+cloak trick takes 10 seconds to warp no matter what ship, from t1 hauler to battleship. Blackops warp in 4 seconds, the sin warps in 2.5s. You simply align, cloak, wait 2-4 seconds until you've reached ~50% of your cloaked velocity (which is >75% of your uncloaked velocity), decloak, and warp. The only thing that can stop you is a bubble, but you're a battleship and you won't get out of a bubble with a pulse from a MWD anyway. You speak far too much of absolutes for a game that has very few. Sometimes the biggest factor can be your own creativity, or lack of it. There are more useful situations for this than you suggest. But, as it should be, this doesn't ensure your survival, only gives you and edge. Besides, attempting to run a gate camp in one of these when you could just jump to a Covert Cyno, if he made it past, doesn't seem too bright. But if you had to pass thru a Cyno jammed system, and it would take too long to go around, I guess it would depend on how much isk you had and how important the objective was.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.08 05:23:00 - [69] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: The only thing that can stop you is a bubble, but you're a battleship and you won't get out of a bubble with a pulse from a MWD anyway. Half the time you will. As opposed to never, without cloak speed bonus. Going from never to half the time is a major advantage, enough to justify spending extra money If you assume half the bubble camps you jump into are manned by retreads with down syndrome, then sure, you can escape 50% of the time. Otherwise, cloak bonus isn't going to save you, and you will die 95% of the time you jump into a bubble camp. Which is one of the main reasons why you're flying a blackops to begin with, so you don't have to jump into bubble camps. And other dude who quoted me, no idea why you quoted me, I was merely explaining the mechanics of blackops, they do not need to use the mwd/cloak trick.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.08 08:20:00 - [70] I know enough about jumping into bubble camps with battleships to have a credible opinion on the matter. One thing still not clear to me - why exactly do you want to have covert ops cloak? So far I heard a lot about "intended" use of Black Ops that has nothing to do with cloaking.

XXJackXX Caldari Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:44:00 - [71] +1 fuel bay
Lil'Bunneh FoFo Uranus Assault Team	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:57:00 - [72] Originally by: Hugh Ruka base widow on rattlesnake instead of scorpion ... Amen!
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Ephemeron I know enough about jumping into bubble camps with battleships to have a credible opinion on the matter. One thing still not clear to me - why exactly do you want to have covert ops cloak? So far I heard a lot about "intended" use of Black Ops that has nothing to do with cloaking. Who wants to have a covert ops cloak? I know a great deal about the intended use and you heard right, it has nothing to do with cloaking. Who are you trying to argue with?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Amy Wang Give it the fuel bay and the ability to ignore cyno jammers in the next big patch, just as you promised. It is long overdue really. Both of which are the same as putting a Band-Aid on a broken leg. These ships need some serious reworking to be compatable with todays pvp. -- Billion Isk Mission
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Amy Wang Give it the fuel bay and the ability to ignore cyno jammers in the next big patch, just as you promised. It is long overdue really. Both of which are the same as putting a Band-Aid on a broken leg. These ships need some serious reworking to be compatable with todays pvp. /shrug To a certain extent you're right, in that they're completely incompatible with 1k+ local 600 vs 400 fleet combat, but then again a lot of ships are incompatible in that atmosphere. But otherwise I strongly disagree, the ships are designed well for todays pvp, enabling small gangs to fully dictate the terms of their engagements vs larger forces, or against forces which are afraid to engage except under unreasonably favorable circumstances. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.09 00:14:00 - [76] Originally by: Rajere Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Amy Wang Give it the fuel bay and the ability to ignore cyno jammers in the next big patch, just as you promised. It is long overdue really. Both of which are the same as putting a Band-Aid on a broken leg. These ships need some serious reworking to be compatable with todays pvp. /shrug To a certain extent you're right, in that they're completely incompatible with 1k+ local 600 vs 400 fleet combat, but then again a lot of ships are incompatible in that atmosphere. But otherwise I strongly disagree, the ships are designed well for todays pvp, enabling small gangs to fully dictate the terms of their engagements vs larger forces, or against forces which are afraid to engage except under unreasonably favorable circumstances. They are compleatly incompatable with small gang raiding. There are many threads as to why. Please explain where a black ops would be better suited to small gang pvp insted of another ship. Thanks.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.02.09 00:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Rajere Originally by: Ephemeron I know enough about jumping into bubble camps with battleships to have a credible opinion on the matter. One thing still not clear to me - why exactly do you want to have covert ops cloak? So far I heard a lot about "intended" use of Black Ops that has nothing to do with cloaking. Who wants to have a covert ops cloak? I know a great deal about the intended use and you heard right, it has nothing to do with cloaking. Who are you trying to argue with? Inteded use: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. Stealthy, clandestine, covert ops all words that lend themselves rather nicely to cloaking. The devs intended use did clearly involve cloaks your interpretation of the ships may however not do so. Dont forget intially cloaking 5 was a requirement but whines got that changed to just cloaking 4 (a shame in my veiw).
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.09 00:52:00 - [78] Quote: They are compleatly incompatable with small gang raiding. There are many threads as to why. Please explain where a black ops would be better suited to small gang pvp insted of another ship. Thanks. I think you know that I like small gang raiding in battleships - I been doing it for years. So I think my opinion should count. The way I see it, the one major advantage of Black Ops for small gang war is the cloaking speed bonus. That's how it is better than regular battleships. It doesn't help kill people more efficiently, but it does help survivability. For small raiding gangs, it is very important to have good survivability against hostile gank squads - which undoubtedly will come to hunt you. So, how exactly does this cloak bonus help survivability? Here are the ways: 1) Reduce safe warp out time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds: by activating cloak right after align, then deactivating and insta warping. This replaces the MWD cycle in MWD+cloak+warp trick, which is 10 seconds. 2) Increases speed and safety of MWDing back to the gate after jump in. Normally, if you want to burn back to the gate, you overload your MWD and hope you don't get scrambled and webed before too late. But with cloaking bonus, you can overload MWD, cloak, and move even faster for 10 seconds toward the gate, while at same time denying enemy tacklers ability to insta-lock you until they decloak you. 3) When you want to escape from a bubble camped gate, you use same trick as burning for the gate, only this time you align to any object away from the bubble. For 10 seconds your cloaked speed will be greater than your regular MWD speed, giving you a good chance of leaving bubble for same warp off. Alternatively, you can remain cloak and move in random direction, greatly reducing the enemy chances of finding your exact location to decloak and kill you. These are major advantages that other battleships and HACs don't possess. All the other ships which can do same thing have much less DPS and tank. So while Black Ops won't be great for everyone, it will appeal to some people as best choice for raiding ship.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.09 00:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Random Womble Inteded use: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. Stealthy, clandestine, covert ops all words that lend themselves rather nicely to cloaking. The devs intended use did clearly involve cloaks your interpretation of the ships may however not do so. Dont forget intially cloaking 5 was a requirement but whines got that changed to just cloaking 4 (a shame in my veiw). First of all, I couldn't care less about the "intended use". I look at the numbers and the numbers tell me what the real uses are. Not what some questionable people think, but actual truth of the matter. Second, what you quoted doesn't make a difference between current cloaking implementation and covert ops cloaking. I don't see anything that would indicate that covert ops cloak needs to be used. If you like to believe what dev story writers tell you, then you have to look at Stealth Bombers as relevant example for this case. They have similar purpose and don't operate covert ops cloak.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.02.09 01:21:00 - [80] Originally by: Ephemeron If you like to believe what dev story writers tell you, then you have to look at Stealth Bombers as relevant example for this case. They have similar purpose and don't operate covert ops cloak. And ammussingly people have been asking for them to be boosted for years and have pretty much given up now days. You do see them occasionally and they dont allways die but then they dont suffer so badly from the bonus as black ops do as they being frigates move quite a bit quicker. CCP already tried to boost them with bombs and look how thats gone.

Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.09 02:25:00 - [81] Originally by: Random Womble Inteded use: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further. Stealthy, clandestine, covert ops all words that lend themselves rather nicely to cloaking. The devs intended use did clearly involve cloaks your interpretation of the ships may however not do so. Dont forget intially cloaking 5 was a requirement but whines got that changed to just cloaking 4 (a shame in my veiw). and you'd be wrong. Look up Clandestine in the dictionary. Now read the final sentence of the ships description. Now try and argue that a covert ops cloak is a better method of filling that role than a jump drive and the ability to use 30 second invisible cynos launched from ships (force recons) which do utilize covert ops cloaks and happen to specialize in maneuvering into position in system cloaked and then tackling opponents. In order to win said argument you must also argue that appearing in local for everyone to see, while slowly warping around cloaked (in a battleship hull) is somehow more stealthy than not being in local, hell not even being in the same constellation until the moment your target is tackled, 15 seconds before the target is obliterated, his wreck is salvaged and 16 seconds before the blackops are in warp to a safe cloaking the moment they come out of warp, waiting for the next lucky winner. Now realize where you went wrong with your assumptions of what stealth, infiltration, clandestine recon style gank squads really are about and how you can accomplish such. Then admit you were wrong and recognize that covert ops cloaks aren't needed by blackops. Notice that the word covert ops is not used to describe the blackops itself, only the ships which can be bridged. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.09 08:04:00 - [82] Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/02/2009 08:04:34 Let them open wormholes. they are based on mass and have a timer like normal wormholes. But you can target a K-space system at about half the range of capital cynos. These wormholes can not be distinguished from normal wormholes. Thus you could set a trap using them, by placing one near a pos, as a fleet warps in a large chunk of thier force could be pulled through the wormhole pulling the fleet in 2.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.09 09:40:00 - [83] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/02/2009 08:04:34 Let them open wormholes. they are based on mass and have a timer like normal wormholes. But you can target a K-space system at about half the range of capital cynos. These wormholes can not be distinguished from normal wormholes. Thus you could set a trap using them, by placing one near a pos, as a fleet warps in a large chunk of thier force could be pulled through the wormhole pulling the fleet in 2. heh this would be lol
Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.09 15:03:00 - [84] Just trying to keep this post at the top! Read the patch note, and see NOOOOOO loving for the BO's Where is the love these ships need????
Aurora 0minae	Posted - 2009.02.22 03:22:00 - [85] ok first off covert cyno's in cynojammed sistems is a good ideea, but only black ops should be allowed to jump/bridge to it there.no point in having a cynojammed if it can be bypassed just by using a dedicated recon ship, that would make it useless.dedicated fuel bays is an epic ideea, its also necessary.now...about making other ships be able to be bridged, not only covops and recons...they could add a rig that would allow that.it wont be a major setup wrecker,it should cost relatively much, so it balances out.also, if im not mistaken, u can bridge blockade runners..if u want to run a succesful black ops mission, at least with the current mechanics, fill some BR's with fuel, and take them with uz. secondly, the cov ops cloak is too much, recons and cov op frigates are very specialized, they give up dps and utility in order to fit the covops cloak, u simply can't have it all. lastly, in regards to DPS and Survivability..Black ops aren't designed for all out pvp..they give away dps/locking time/bit of hit points in order to fill their specific role.is that role to niche?it sure is.should it be expanded?definately.but in regards of firepower, they should be less equipped than their t1 counterparts. to summarize: big bad fuel bay , ability to jjump and bridge to covert cynos in cynojammed sistems, and a expensive rig that would allow all non capital ships to be bridged.it would be rather cost prohibitive,due to fuel costs, but it would be possible,and it would a rather interesting mechanic.love stealth.
Cpt Underpants Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:36:00 - [86] I just purchased and set up my first black ops.. a widow. To be honest, I'm disappointed. Even with a faction cloak and a SB2+script the scan res is terrible. Anything designed to jam needs to be able to lock faster than what could be jamming it. So please CCP: =Fuel bay =Scan Res =Covops cloak
Ahz	Posted - 2009.02.23 23:04:00 - [87] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 21/02/2009 21:45:57 I'm unaware of any connection with the Orca as that was an entirely separate project. The addition of fuel bays to jump capable ships is something that we still want to pursue. Unfortunately they did not make the feature cut for Apocrypha. That does not mean they will not show up in the near future, but they will not be included with the coming expansion. From another post on the same topic. Give it a rest boys. It's going to be late summer at the earliest before there's any real attention paid to these ships.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.02.24 10:41:00 - [88] Guess CCP is putting more hours in creating new and exiting (broken) stuff than fixing the old pre-nerfed. CCP even talked it over with CSM way back so its not totally new to them. I do hope they will think this over and will give these ships some well deserved attn.
Goa Vibe	Posted - 2009.02.26 03:35:00 - [89] Edited by: Goa Vibe on 26/02/2009 03:41:21 Edited by: Goa Vibe on 26/02/2009 03:38:40 i wouldnt mind dropping the ECM (hand off to a falc) for maybe... 5x bonus to optimal range for target painters and 25% extra bonus reduction to sig size? (there is ur extra dps vs smaller ships. swap mids from ecm to painters. possibly a bonus to tackling since ur gonna be in close with torps anyway. and fuel bay. had thought of seeing what i could do dualboxing a falc/widow since both can cloak, but there's that dps problem
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.02 16:46:00 - [90] My opinion so far: 1.) Remove the cap penalty when jumping through Covert Jump Portal, making your capacitor intact. 2.) Make Covert Jump Portal require capacitor instead of isotopes depending on ship size, this way you can jump into the battlefield with full cap, or no cap at all depending on the ships you've jumped in with you.



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