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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:12:00 -
[1]
I'm serious: ECM sucks. I've used it a lot, in lots of different situations, and contrary to what some might think, I have been thinking a lot about what people have said in the various threads. I have come to the conclusion that ECM is horrible.
The effect, as many have noted, is too powerful compared to other EW. The balancing characteristic, that it is chance-based, makes it too unreliable to use as any kind of serious protection unless the chance of failure is so small that the ship is overpowered, or unless the range is so high that the ECM ship isn't in danger anyway. ECM ships have to be useless for everything but ECM, but or ECM ships to be worth flying at all that means they have to be too good at ECM. In the various ECM/Falcon whinethreads, a large number of people who know a lot about the game have comprehensively and consistently failed to come up with a way of making ECM ships useful for anything except ECM. Long range, unanswerable, fun destroying. In short ECM is either overpowered, or it is overpowered and useless (ie: it cripples the enemy in a situation where they would lose anyway), or it is useless. What it isn't, ever, is fun. For anyone. I have in the past argued that eg: Falcons are balanced because they have so many weaknesses and such specific utility. Whilst I still believe that this is true, I have come to the conclusion that the problem with them is not so much that they're imbalanced, but that their balance balance comes from being so rigidly specialised that they are either ridiculously good or ridiculously bad in a given situation. On average, they're not "overpowered". But what they never are is fun, either to fly or to fight.
So let's junk ECM and the current concept of hyper-specialised ECM ships and start from scratch. We need a completely different EW concept for Caldari ships. My thought is that it should have the following characteristics:
(1) Get rid of chance based effects, at least within optimal range. If it's reliable, it can be less powerful. If it's less powerful, then we can reasonably give Caldari EW ships stuff like drone bays or secondary E-War
(2) Caldari EW should still be the "best" EW, but by a much smaller margin than is currently the case. If Caldari recons are to get a secondary E-War, it should be the least powerful, and maybe a buff effect rather than an offensive one (eg: a range/effect bonus to remote sensor boosters or trackng links?) or something Caldari-flavoured like the equivalent of a tracking disruptor for missiles.
(3) Either drop the scorpion's EW role altogether, and buff it's drone bay and give it some weapon bonuses so that Caldari have 1 decent solo ship (and a tier 1 BS that can deploy a set of heavy drones like every other race has) or, if the new Caldari EW is worthwhile on a BS, give all the other races a tier 1 EW BS, and create a decent soloable (or at least multirole) t1 BS for Caldari to use. Currently the Scorpion Fails ItÖ and I say this as someone who dearly wants it to be a good ship.
tl;dr: drop ECM, rework Caldari ECM ships, let's hear your thoughts. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 09:19:00 -
[2]
Originally by: hellsknights BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
Thank you for not reading my post.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: hellsknights BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
Ironicly both the ew you mention were overpowered when fitted on ships that were not specialized for it. And since ECM got a number of boosts. And still the problem is only the specialized ships. These cycles apply to all ships and all balances, they more or less have to be there.
Solution is in my eyes kind of simple. Boost counters for it or rework it more. Making it reduce the number of locked ships for example would be a great way of doing it. And it would put more use to signal amplifiers and auto-targeters.
Best solution still is simply to arrange damp ranges so they can affect falcons where they are at, and remove the option of jamming while warping or cloaked. That done I'd say it's all fine and dandy - the only risk being to counter all the fotm pilots with ready falcon alts forcing an overnerf - again.
That doesn't answer my argument: that ECM inherently sucks. It's balanced by being either overpowered or useless. Whilst this is balanced, it's balanced by being fun-destroying; either the ECM pilot makes other ships useless, or the ECM pilot is himself useless. And ECM ships aren't fun to fly, not really. You spend 90% of your time passively waiting. You can't do a goddamb thing on your own. You are vulnerable - hilariously slow, tanked like a hauler, armed like a hauler - to the point of uselessness unless you can get enough range or unless you outnumber the enemy enough to make sure everyone in weapon range is jammed - in which case you were going to win anyway and you're still pretty useless. And if you do have the range, you then become so useful that FCs won't let you fly any other ships so all you ever do is get to jam the enemy while you watch other people having the actual fun. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: hellsknights I dislike the Scorp, but its efective at what is does. Do we need an ECM BS i think we could do without.
If your using a Scorp for ecm support why not use a recon, i know the scorp will push out more DPS but still.
Maybe i just have Scorp hate.
The scorp is not effective at anything. It can be mediocre at several things.
I suppose it could be just about useful for ganking mission runners, where you know in advance what flavour of ECM to bring. And then only if you cant bring a domi. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: hellsknights I can fly a Falcon and the Rook, i never do but i can. I would trade those 2 ships to be able to fly the Amarr recons any day.
The Scorp can be very effective at jamming and or be very effective tank the number of mids on the ship make it swing either way.
I can strongly advise training Amarr Cruiser V, since all their T2 Cruisers are fantastic, with the possible exception of the Devoter (and that's pretty good at least).
The scorp can be moderately effective at jamming, at the expense of any other utility. In which case, why not fly a Rook, which is better at jamming, locks faster and has better range. It can tank pretty well, at the expense of being able to do aanything else. I guess I should modify my statement to add that it makes a good bait/decoy ship. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: hellsknights
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 09/01/2009 09:53:47 /signed
ECM is boring for both sides.
How about buff defender missiles and make that the recons secondary ewar? How about making ECM work 100% of time on all ships within optimal, but making the effect simply break target locks instead of the 20 second jam? More like ECM bursts I suppose. It would cripple battleships and low scan res ships, but ceptors could still operate quickly enough to tackle.
And for the scorpian? It does sound like a very scary ship, alot of dps with no tank. Solo torp, heavy drone bs for caldari sounds great.
Edit: Could make al the black ops BS extremely ewar heavy, like the scorpian is now. Redeemer with neut and tracking disruptor bonus, Sin with warp disruptor and damp bonus, Widow with ECM and defender bonuses and finally panther with Web range and target painting bonuses.
If ECM was like a burst it would make the caldari recons useless and ECM as well. As for a defender bonus sounds useless and your too far from the fight to use those defenders anyhow.
Defender bonus would have to be on a close range ship not a recon.
The idea is to bring Caldari recons into the fight, not have them just sat at 170Km. That means making them useful - low slots, speed, drones.
But "burst" ECM still fails because it's chance based, and therefore useless. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 09/01/2009 09:58:23 Why should they give you a caldari solo ship while they nerfed all the others?! Caldari got way too much to perform perfectly in every role; if you trained another race you are tempted to cross-train another race to fill the holes of your race, but this is not for caldari! Tell me 1 single role that you cannot perform with caldari ships....
And about the ecm problem, the solution is simple: remove that ridicolous huge range, make it a very close range ship to be effective, and give it 2 different bonuses, like every other recon ship. ("made of paper" ?? stfu, the other recons are too).
Take the ECM from your falcon or rook. I will remove the EW from any other recon ship of your choice.
We will 1v1
if you win, I will give you all my stuff then biomass my characters. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 09/01/2009 10:01:13
Yes, yes let's nerf the last thing Caldari has left that's better than everyone else.
Bring it in line with our sucky lolflight-time missiles, our crap dps rails, our ever vanishing mid-slots, our crawling speed, miniscule grid and microscopic dronebays.
FFS just remove the jam cycle when the jammer cloaks, tone down the Falcons range (let the Rook rule the roost for range), and all will be fine.
Thank you for not reading my post. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: P'uck There is some stuff I could think about:
Introduce "hit quality" like with turrets, which determines how long that jam cycle lasts, modify it in falloff.
I did consider a sort of "universal tracking disruptor", and it could work well.
Another thing I thought of was to make ECM protect a specific friendly ship rather than cripple a specific hostile ship, but that should be a secondary EW rather than the primary IMO. I dunno, maybe it could work. It would certainly make Falcons as welcome as Gaurdians and Scimitars, but I didn't train Recon V to fly a disguised Logistics ship. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Deltronious >Seriously. Caldari have the best solo ship in the game ie. the raven, and if you're talking pvp, well who's taking battleships pvp anyway?
wat? The raven isn't the best solo ship in PvP or PvE. By a long way.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Now I read your whine, I missed the suggestion for the new Caldari ewar.
The only part I agree with is the Scorpion overhaul ... an ECM battleship was fine in the days before Rook/Falcon, now it is just useless. Let's make it a good tier 1 comabt ship (I want a sentry drone bonused ship :-))
So untill you have a viable suggestion for a replacement ewar, don't bother (and believe me I tried to think of one, but all of them are already taken by the other races and any other ones don't make much sense).
I want to see what other people think before I list my own idea for a replacement.
A scorp with bonus only to sentries could be interesting. It would need a 175m^3 bay though. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 11:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pac SubCom Notify: "Do you want to be jammed now? Be aware it might not be fun! Y/N?
In your posts you say that ECM ships are both overpowered and useless. Which one is it?
Both. They're either unanswerable or unusable. There's no situation where they're just "good".
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 11:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Colonel Xaven Let's get rid off whiners.
I think we'll find changing an MMO mechanic easier than changing humanity, but if you disagree, I'll be glad to listen to your ideas. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 11:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks One idea of a new form of Ewar is something that debuffs a ships ability to fight.
Like a Computer Jammer, maybe when it is applied it randomly knocks some of the other persons modules offline by decreasing their CPU.
Or an alternate effect is to debuff the effectiveness of all the modules on that ship. Increase duration of active modules, debuff percentages of things like hardeners, Cap rechargers, shield rechargers, decrease drone bandwidth, etc etc.
That could be very interesting, with the caveat that the modules auto-online themselves after without requiring any cap. I kind of like that idea. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 11:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: lebrata ECM is fine get rid of whining muppets instead.
See post .42
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 12:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Quigon Jimm Edited by: Quigon Jimm on 09/01/2009 11:56:28 Seriously, for EvE to be any where near true to "SciFi" warfare, ECM has to exist
With no ECM its whoever has the biggest gang with the most DPS will win. Sure, it'd be fun I guess, but very 1-dimensional.
ECM enables a smaller gang to effectively engage a stronger enemy and stand a chance of winning the fight.
I Don't want to call this a whine thread, because you make coherent points and they are valid, but I think removing ECM full stop would not be a wise move for the greater good.
I think you're conflating ECM with Electronic Warfare.
I certainly agree that Caldari should have EW, and I specifically said that they should have the best EW. I just don't think it should be like ECM is now.
What if ECM randomly retargetted active modules? |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 13:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sedious Bloke Edited by: Sedious Bloke on 09/01/2009 12:16:49 "Thank you for not reading my post."
You are very welcomed. Thank you for wasting my internets
The best part(before i could divert my eyes) was where you said it was worthless and overpowered within 3 sentences of each other.
Allow me to assist.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 14:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Venomae
Originally by: Malcanis Whine Whine Whine Whine Whine...
Bring Your Own Falcon. Enough said.
Thank you for not reading my post, made as it was by someone who spent most of 2008 in a Falcon. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 14:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 09/01/2009 13:31:43 Well, I like to defend ECM - but I'll at least grant you its boring as anything to fly (I hate giving up a dps boat and flying a falcon).
That said, I disagree with your replacement ideas.
NO DRONE BONUS TO CALDARI SHIPS. I hate suggesting drones as a weapons platform for a caldari ship - its not their racial flavor whatsoever. If you want to give the falcon weapons - stick to hybrids or missiles - there's a reason why I bothered investing 11 million skillpoints between gunnery and missiles and only a shade over 1 million in drones. Its the equivalent of saying the Lachesis/Arazu should get a hybrid range bonus - wrong racial bonus.
A defender missile bonus - meh - then the recons would only be useful against other caldari ships (or the phoon).
One idea I can think of, that wouldn't step on any other race's shoes would be to alter ECM into dropping the number of targets the opponent can lock down to 1, and removing the chance factor. It would act like a burst and drop all their locks at first - then as they try to re-lock they can only lock 1 target. It would be very effective against remote repping gangs, and it wouldn't ruin small gang/solo warfare.
If range annoys people - fine, make it so this module doesn't need signal distortion amps, and give the Caldari recons some weapon bonuses to hybrids and missiles.
Or we could just leaves things alone.
I didn't ever say drone bonus, just a drone bay. You know, like every other race has on it's recons.
I mean just because Amarr recons have the 2nd best EW, the best secondary EW, the best tanks, the best damage and a drone bonus to go with their massive BS-class drone bays.... |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 14:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Confessor lets push you off a cliff.
Thank you for making the best contribution you are capable of. |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:01:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Malcanis on 09/01/2009 15:04:04
Originally by: CAiNE999 (qouted) `With no ECM its whoever has the biggest gang with the most DPS will win. Sure, it'd be fun I guess, but very 1-dimensional.
ECM enables a smaller gang to effectively engage a stronger enemy and stand a chance of winning the fight.`
Yeah thats all very well in that aspect, enabling small gangs to fight larger ones, but unfortunatly thats in one situation and in a fair world where larger blobs dont take falcon ewar.....but oh wait they do in this age of taking no risk because people cant stand dying, despite cheap market and lvl 4 isk fountains rant over
So what you get is people being ewar ****d by falcons and rendered completely useless, i second this white noise idea, in the fact that instead of lock, it fluctuates modules that are active to be enabled/disabled for a length of time 10-20 secs?, maybe blue flashing when its being tampered with. and altho it would be a bit lag enducing, some nice gfx effect on the affected ship would be nice, like sparks or stuff. this way your still being ewar-ed, but your not sitting there watching youself die
Any takers on tampering with modules, blue flashing, unactivatable, chosen at random from activable modules
What if an ECM module caused a CPU penalty proportional to the strength of the ECM module vs that targets sensor strength. With random modules being temporarily offlined, with a probability equal to their CPU consumption until all the "lost" CPU is accounted for. ECCM modules to increase sensor strength to reduce the effect.
If the CPU penalty was a percentage then you would have small and large ships relatively equally affected. Small ships would still be somewhat more vulnerable as they have fewer modules and lower sensor strength, so the granularity of the effect is larger. Stacking penalties would apply, so little point putting more than 3 jammers on a ship unless it's the only target (and therefore probably doomed anyway)
eg: a T2 racial jammer causes a base 25%* CPU penalty, modified by jam strength/sensor strength. Putting a jammer on a Megathron jam str 14.1, sensor strength 21 = 16.78% CPU penalty. The Mega 'loses' modules until 228.08 CPU worth have been offlined - probably 2-3 turrets and a low slot or 2. If the Mega had ECCM fitted it would lose only only about half as much CPU.
The main problem I see with this idea is that it might make ECM worth fitting on non EW ships. But that's true of tracking disruptors and target painters too, whether people realise it or not.
*I say 25% just as a number pulled from the air. Suggest better numbers.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Murina
Removing ECM would push the game even more towards the gank/tank slug fest kinda deal that sucks gigantic donkey balls.
Keep it and we force ppl to be more mobile and versatile in their combat choices and strategies.
Removing is not a synonym for replacing.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Malcanis
I didn't ever say drone bonus, just a drone bay. You know, like every other race has on it's recons.
I mean just because Amarr recons have the 2nd best EW, the best secondary EW, the best tanks, the best damage and a drone bonus to go with their massive BS-class drone bays....
Meh - no drone bay on HACs - same for the recons - Id rather they boost the actual weapons platform.
What do you think about my suggestion about ECM bursting your lock - then allowing you to only relock 1 target. ECCM could allow you to lock more than 1 target, and give a 50:50 chance you don't get bursted in the first place (without it you're 100% bursted).
It would make ECm way too weak.
And say that because long range HACs have no drone bay that medium range recons shouldn't either is not a stron argument IMO. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Esk Esme Edited by: Esk Esme on 09/01/2009 15:34:39 never thought i see u whine mal
but bolla<s m8
all caldari got left is ew also no drone's on these ships they r purly suport ship only
get a grip ppl all this crap about nurfing, boost other ships mods not nurf its not over powerd
shocking just shocking btw there are mods to counter ECM try fitting them if u think u might come across EWAR in hostie gang tbh didnt even bother to read all post as its just another whine
It's not really a whine you welsh get. I don't want to nerf Caldari ships, I want to make them more fun.
And you've asked for a drone bay on the rook more times than I can remember you. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 16:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: BiggestT Hehe, Ive been wanting to make a thread like this for quite a while.
Thankfully, Malc beat me to it and I can see why I didnt do it.
Unfortunately, most ppl on this forum simply read one or two sentances, or even just the thread title and post some semi-witty but quite pointless junk and even "gb2wow" or "stfu noob" type posts.
Your taking one for the team here, which I believe is true as almost all falcon pilots I know (who use htem on their mains and dont have other pvp alts) hate using them and wld like them to be funner.
Id personally love to see ecm booted, and shield/armour dampeners put in their place, the scorp + recons get a drone bay and a nice buffer tank to boot. But who am I kidding all the "ECM is fine" arguers dont want change .
Troll away.
Shield/armour damps would be barely better than target painters - worse in some respects. That might work as a funky secondary EW, but even then, meh. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 10:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 10/01/2009 05:52:56 Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 10/01/2009 05:51:25
Originally by: Isabelle Sparks
Stop being so obtuse. Armor repairer and damage mods are just examples. What if it shut down half your guns, or maybe your MWD and disrupter. Also, I would say that on a gank build damage mods may be fairly significant. Perhaps, you could load scripts, and actually target different types of weapon modules, or maybe you could load scripts that made it kn**** off either High slots, mid slots or low slots.
There are a million possibilities, that add more to the game then someone being able to do something, or not.
Give me one tactical reason why I'd fly a ship that can disable half of another ship - when I could instead simply fly a ship that does the full damage of a gank ship?
Because with 5 jammers fitted, you could cripple 5 enemy ships. Every time. No chance based crap: you will definitely offline some of their mods.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 10:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
Edited to add: Its funny that the topic is "ECM is balanced but not fun, lets make it fun" but all the suggestions amount to "let's gimp ECM to the equivalent of a 100 mil isk shuttle".
That's because most people don't read. A lot of people what to whine about how overpowered ECM is (because they don't fit the counters) and some just read the 'lets get rid of ECM' and replied based on it being an ECM whine.
One of the problems is that ECM is powerful and CCP has chosen to balance it by making all the ships useless at anything other than ECM (with the exception of the scorpion which, I'm sure you'll all agree, would not be your first choice for any role). The OP is sugesting that by reducing the power of ECM so that the difference could be added to the Caldari ships as combat abilities.
Don't forget "while increasing it's reliability, so that it actually makes sense for the ECM ships to have combat ability".
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 12:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 12:13:17
Originally by: Malcanis
Because with 5 jammers fitted, you could cripple 5 enemy ships. Every time. No chance based crap: you will definitely offline some of their mods.
A utterly useless "crap shoot" of a ability as you do not know what modules you are effecting woulds make it worthless. Ppl know how damps and TD's exactly effect ships so they can structure their tactics and combat around the results.
But to make ECM a moronic "crap shoot" module that effects unknown modules would make it a useless if not dangerous to rely on if your looking for good skilled and teamwork reliant pvp.
Well I'm going to go ahead and assume that the majority of PvP ships are fitted with modules that the pilots think they need, and that their ships will be significantly impaired if they lose a good number of them. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 12:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Because with 5 jammers fitted, you could cripple 5 enemy ships. Every time. No chance based crap: you will definitely offline some of their mods.
A utterly useless "crap shoot" of a ability as you do not know what modules you are effecting woulds make it worthless. Ppl know how damps and TD's exactly effect ships so they can structure their tactics and combat around the results.
But to make ECM a moronic "crap shoot" module that effects unknown modules would make it a useless if not dangerous to rely on if your looking for good skilled and teamwork reliant pvp.
Well I'm going to go ahead and assume that the majority of PvP ships are fitted with modules that the pilots think they need, and that their ships will be significantly impaired if they lose a good number of them.
Not knowing exactly what you are disrupting would make ecm a crap, pointless and stupid module and you know it.
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...? |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 13:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...?
You know as soon as you activate the module if its worked or not with ALL ewar as it is and you know the exact effect they have.
Well ECM is gonna be nerfed, since CCP have low resists to whining. So you can have uncertain and weak or certain and weak.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:45:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...?
You know as soon as you activate the module if its worked or not with ALL ewar as it is and you know the exact effect they have.
Well ECM is gonna be nerfed, since CCP have low resists to whining. So you can have uncertain and weak or certain and weak.
Link to the announcement pls?.
I have seen a lot of threads started (by the same ppl over and over again) but all those threads would have died if it had not been for ppl saying ECM was fine.
Your argument and idea has failed try not to be so bitter about it.
Did you miss the part where I said I have flown falcons a lot? I have. I still do sometimes, when there's no reasonable alternative. I have pretty good skills and a lot of experience with Caldari ECM ships. I'm not theorycrafting about some ship I know nothing about here. I'm speaking for personal knowledge: Falcons are bloody boring ships to fly and they're boring to fight. I do NOT believe that ECM ships are overpowered, I believe that they're bad ships because they're dull.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 18:20:00 -
[32]
Again, I say that my problem with ECM is not that it's overpowered or uncounterable - I have argued at length against both of those points - but that it's not fun.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 16:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Mysis
Originally by: Malcanis ECM ships have to be useless for everything but ECM, but or ECM ships to be worth flying at all that means they have to be too good at ECM.
I have an alt that flies an officer fitted Rook (hence posting with alt) i personally love ECM.
Your point is completly stupid and you need to learn to play, the ship is good at 1 thing and 1 thing only jamming, if someone fits ECCM i instapop if i fail. i say fighting passive tanks arnt fun and drake is (basicly) useless without passive tank so remove it from game.
tl;dr You suck, learn to play or i will come jam you.
You say my point is completely stupid and then in the same sentence, reiterate it. Your debate tactics baffle and confuse me.
PS Drakes should have a buffer tank and a rack of HAM II for PvP. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 17:15:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Uncle Smokey i got better idea lets get rid of WCS.
Quote this if you're down
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 18:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Falcon is OP simply because it operates out of the range of anything that can tackle and kill it.
So every ship that can operate at sniper range is OP?.
Everyship that can disrupt so many ships with no effective counter is op, sniper ships cannot easily deal with multiple threats nor do they cloak or have the agility to warp off at the first sign of trouple, unless fully aligned.
Falcons can't cloak if they're being targetted, and they have pretty bad agility too. Not as bad as a sniper BS, but bad enough to be hit twice buy a lot of long range ships (eg: tachypoc, sniper cerb) |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.11 21:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Xiaodown
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 09/01/2009 09:58:23 Why should they give you a caldari solo ship while they nerfed all the others?! Caldari got way too much to perform perfectly in every role; if you trained another race you are tempted to cross-train another race to fill the holes of your race, but this is not for caldari! Tell me 1 single role that you cannot perform with caldari ships....
And about the ecm problem, the solution is simple: remove that ridicolous huge range, make it a very close range ship to be effective, and give it 2 different bonuses, like every other recon ship. ("made of paper" ?? stfu, the other recons are too).
Take the ECM from your falcon or rook. I will remove the EW from any other recon ship of your choice.
We will 1v1
if you win, I will give you all my stuff then biomass my characters.
Careful; the rook has 7 midslots for tanking; add that to 3 BCU's in the lows, and I'm fairly confident that I could beat up a curse before its drones got through my rook's shields.
Good luck doing much damage to an AB Curse...
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.12 11:43:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Originally by: Malcanis Again, I say that my problem with ECM is not that it's overpowered or uncounterable - I have argued at length against both of those points - but that it's not fun.
Well, that's fairly subjective, I must say. I suppose you could just refuse to fly ECM ships.
How about instead of jamming the targeting system, it ejects the targeted ship's pilot?
Maybe you would enjoy that more.
What I'd really like would be if it automatically unsubscribed the target, and could be used via the forum interface.
But I recognise that this would cause a lot of extra programming work for the devs.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 09:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you? |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:16:00 -
[39]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Edited by: PsychoBones Jr on 14/01/2009 09:28:39
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you?
No idea.
Should it matter? I had 101 Snsor strength ffs.
Edit: You can see from the killmail that he wasn't using exclusively amarr jammers.
Um, yeah it should matter. It would change your chance of being jammed.
Most people don't understand chance very well at all.
Did you know that the chance of a dice rolling 10 6s in a row is exactly the same as it rolling 6.1.6.4.2.4.1.3.6.2? Most people don't, or if they "know" it, they don't really believe it.
Did you know that if you roll 10 6s in a row, that your chance of rolling another 6 is.... exactly the same as rolling any other number? Again, most people will "know" this if the question is asked in that way - but hardly any of them will act is if it were true.
You remember the 10 6s. You don't remember all the times the dice just rolled a bunch of different numbers. It's human psychology. It's also the reason casinos make so much money: people just don't believe in randomness. You're one of them as your "I had 101 Snsor strength ffs" comment demonstrates.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:02:00 -
[40]
Listen you fail****s
ECM is NOT overpowered. That was not my point.
ECM is BORING. That was my point.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 08:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 23:37:19
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Hahaha, ECM is stacking nerfed? Hahahaha, no it's not. Please go away.
It is more stacking nerfed than anything else. Once a single one takes effect all others are rendered useless, they don't add anything. Now if each ECM that succeeded added + 20s of jam, THEN they wouldn't be.
Haha, no you're wrong. ECM has no stacking nerf.
That's correct, but on the other hand, a target isn't "more jammed" if multiple jamming attempts succeed either. Whereas if you put 3 damps or TDs or TPs, the target is much more damped, tracking-disrupted or painted.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 20:49:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Malcanis
That's correct, but on the other hand, a target isn't "more jammed" if multiple jamming attempts succeed either. Whereas if you put 3 damps or TDs or TPs, the target is much more damped, tracking-disrupted or painted.
Yes but the target also is not "more damped" after the 3rd or 4th damp. Its not like damps dont have that issue. Thing is though that you can fit 3 SBs and be sure you will not get damped to crap no matter how many damps are targeted on your ship. Why? Because damps get stacking nerfed against eachother and have a maximum "damage". Just like Sensor boosting has a maximum "boost". The max boost is equal to max damage. So you can be sure to be protected. Problem with eccm is that 3xeccm does not protect you because ECM is not stacking nerfed. You will get jammed if enough ecm is put on you even if you have 3x eccm fitted. Do you get it? Do I need to explain this a 1000th time?
You need to explain why you say "You will get jammed if enough ecm is put on you even if you have 3x eccm fitted." when it should be "You may get jammed if enough ecm is put on you even if you have 3x eccm fitted."
I suspect that it's because you're using dishonest debate techniques, but it may be that you simply don't know any better than to believe the forum hyperbole about ECM.
Yeah so anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to be about whether ECM is overpowered. Candidly, I don't give a tinkers cuss whether you or anyone else thinks it's overpowered. This thread was supposed to be about making ECM - and ECM ships - more fun.
There are roughly 9000+ Falcon/ECM whine threads for you to go whine about ECM/Falcons in. This thread is for making useful suggestions about alternative electronic warfare concepts for Caldari ships. Not nerfing ECM. Not whining about ECM. Not crying about how fitting ECCM is a kind of suffering worse than Auschwitz. But for rethinking the whole Caldari EW/EW ships from scratch.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:08:00 -
[43]
I'm starting to wonder if you actually know how ECM works.
If not, you're merely making yourself look silly. If so, please go troll any of the other falcon whine threads which abound. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:12:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong number of damps. 3 ECCM will NOT protect you from any number of ECM, you will get jammed by a handful of ECM.
This is provably false. Now calm down. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Malcanis I'm starting to wonder if you actually know how ECM works.
If not, you're merely making yourself look silly. If so, please go troll any of the other falcon whine threads which abound.
Does your chance of jamming a ship go down if someone else is trying to jam that ship? NO. Why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET?
Perhaps you can quote the post where I said ECM was stacking nerfed? I, on the other hand, can quote one where I said that it wasn't, but that it is not relevant.
I also recommend that you walk away from the keyboard for a bit. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong number of damps. 3 ECCM will NOT protect you from any number of ECM, you will get jammed by a handful of ECM.
This is provably false. Now calm down.
Uhm, no. 10 racials will easily jam a cruiser with 3xeccm. 10000000 damps cant damp a Frig with 3xSBs below 10km.
Do you know why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.
10 racials may jam a cruiser with 3 ECCM. There is a real chance that they may not.
If ECM strength was additive, you would be correct. But each ECM module has it's chance to jam calculated independently of any others. Therefore there is a small but definitely non-zero chance that 3 or 6 or even 10 racials may fail to jam a cruiser. Therefore an ECCM will improve the chance of not being jammed since ECCM will always raise a cruiser's sensor strength to greater than that of any possible jamming strength. Therefore an ECCM may protect against any number of jammers; and multiple ECCMs will protect even better.
Q.E.D.: Your statement is provably false.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.
You mean like a falcon?
Falcons are pretty much ****ed if they're tackled.
Any ship can "disengage at will" at long range. It's not like falcons have any monopoly on being aligned.
So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Malcanis
So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?
I've always wanted heat cannons since they introduced the mechanic. Scale the damage correctly so heat cannons damage modules at the same rate guns generally wear out shields/armour and they'd be pretty interesting.
People wouldn't be so quick to overheat their weapons / tank modules anywhere near such a weapon.
ooh that would be nice but maybe a teeny bit OP... unless it didn't affect all modules.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.16 10:15:00 -
[49]
I doubt that any further value will be obtained from this thread.
Please close it. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 14:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...?
You know as soon as you activate the module if its worked or not with ALL ewar as it is and you know the exact effect they have.
Well ECM is gonna be nerfed, since CCP have low resists to whining. So you can have uncertain and weak or certain and weak.
Link to the announcement pls?.
I have seen a lot of threads started (by the same ppl over and over again) but all those threads would have died if it had not been for ppl saying ECM was fine.
Your argument and idea has failed try not to be so bitter about it.
I'd just like to say: nyah nyah I was right and you were wrong. Instead of being an arrogant, argumentative git, you could have made useful and constructive contributions, but no, you chose to just be totally negative.
And now look what you've got. The Falcon is still a crappy ship AND ECM has been nerfed. Nice one.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.25 15:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Originally by: Malcanis And now look what you've got. The Falcon is still a crappy ship AND ECM has been nerfed. Nice one.
ECM still jams people, people still won't fit ECCM. Whine posts will go on every now and then. Nothing changes.
Who cares - I won an argument on the internet!
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