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[proposal] Invisibility abusement counteractions.

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Iguerra	Posted - 2009.01.09 13:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Iguerra on 09/01/2009 13:34:56 Description: Some character spends hours just hanging cloaked somewhere in system with no visual actions (seeding probes etc). Player leaves this char unattended every day for hours, this happens in low sec system. This was acceptable if there was something in action, but this is just a harassment, that can be considered as abusement. The invisible char is invincible because of it. That makes his opponents helpless and unable to make counteractions against that actor. There must be created some instrument for cloaked chars not being so comfortable for spending hours in hostile environment. Users should be given a chance to defend themselves. Let that instrument not be quick and smooth. Let it be hard to detect, but give it a 1% of success, it is better than 0% at all.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.09 13:40:00 - [2] Why do you need to defend youself against someone who you say isn't doing anything? How is someone who isn't doing ANYTHING to you harrassing you? Get a grip, put your big-boy pants on and get over it. If the invisible, inactive person scares you that much - leave the system. It's a big galaxy and you can go to safe space if you are nervous. No support. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Iguerra	Posted - 2009.01.09 13:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Iguerra on 09/01/2009 13:45:18 The same thing I told to GM, but he insisted me to post that here as a "good idea". I dont like being blamed for "carebear whining", but GM is an authority. Quote: How is someone who isn't doing ANYTHING to you harrassing you? His unprediction harasses. Noone knows what happens in the next sec. He can probe you in any sec and throw a gang on your head.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.09 17:21:00 - [4] In-game harassment is legit in this game. I agree a cloak change of some description is probably a good idea, but the above poster had a pretty good suggestion for you. - Lotto - Paladin! Cruiser BPC Store
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto In-game harassment is legit in this game. I agree a cloak change of some description is probably a good idea, but the above poster had a pretty good suggestion for you. Not really, no. The cloaking mechanics are still a very large problem in that they allow an individual to project power without being at his computer or incurring any cost or risk to himself. The reason that they can do so is because everyone else cannot simply treat the cloaked individual as if they are not there. They have no way of determining that. They have no way of determining if they will come back, or when they will come back. Because of that, they must treat them as if they are actively hunting at all times or they are going to be taking inordinate amounts of risk. The big irony here is that the guy who want to sit in space with no assets at risk away from his computer for long periods of time in a position that requires every other person in space to assume they are active and modify their behavior accordingly is not the one being called a Carebear and derided for not being "man enough to deal with it".
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:25:00 - [6] Remove local and the problem is solved.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Venkul Mul Remove local and the problem is solved. Agreed. Then everyone could stress out equally; or not stress out equally - whichever they prefer.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Iguerra Edited by: Iguerra on 09/01/2009 13:34:56 Description: Some character spends hours just hanging cloaked somewhere in system with no visual actions (seeding probes etc). Player leaves this char unattended every day for hours, this happens in low sec system. This was acceptable if there was something in action, but this is just a harassment, that can be considered as abusement. The invisible char is invincible because of it. That makes his opponents helpless and unable to make counteractions against that actor. There must be created some instrument for cloaked chars not being so comfortable for spending hours in hostile environment. Users should be given a chance to defend themselves. Let that instrument not be quick and smooth. Let it be hard to detect, but give it a 1% of success, it is better than 0% at all. It's called mind warfare.... get it? "Works as intended" Removing local while may be a good idea could actually make things rather difficult in the terms of intelligence... you'll throw a fit about cloaks even then.... Count on it.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: Venkul Mul Remove local and the problem is solved. Agreed. Then everyone could stress out equally; or not stress out equally - whichever they prefer. Except people who were cloaked of course... Their stress level would be more or less unchanged. Removing local is a monumentally stupid idea
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.09 19:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: Venkul Mul Remove local and the problem is solved. Agreed. Then everyone could stress out equally; or not stress out equally - whichever they prefer. Except people who were cloaked of course... Their stress level would be more or less unchanged. Removing local is a monumentally stupid idea That is the reason of the icon. But there aren't plenty of guys screaming for a removal of local? At least they would be happy.
GoodNDead Caldari Flaming Fist Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:53:00 - [11] Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:56:23 Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:55:31 i think system scanners should find cloaking ships. yes these are sov modules that wont help those in low sec. but this forces the cloaker to stay active and stay moving. he cant just move in one direction afk because repeat scans would reveal the direction he is moving and players can just mwd gangs in that direction and decloak him. as for low sec meh you dont own the space so no cool decloakie sov mod for you :P maybe a limited au chance based probe could be created that would allow the hunting of cloaked ships?
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:59:00 - [12] Originally by: GoodNDead Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:56:23 Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:55:31 as for low sec meh you dont own the space so no cool decloakie sov mod for you :P quote] Nobody owns any space - this is a common misconception of 0.0 alliances. The POSs, the infrastructure, the equipment, the moons, ect - these are owned. Space is free and unowned. Any other idea is self-delusion. Power to the independents! ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
GoodNDead Caldari Flaming Fist Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.09 21:04:00 - [13] Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 21:07:29 Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 21:06:21 Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: GoodNDead Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:56:23 Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 20:55:31 as for low sec meh you dont own the space so no cool decloakie sov mod for you :P quote] Nobody owns any space - this is a common misconception of 0.0 alliances. The POSs, the infrastructure, the equipment, the moons, ect - these are owned. Space is free and unowned. Any other idea is self-delusion. Power to the independents! i don't know.. if you own structures, and patrol space around them by removing hostiles and hostile structures you kinda do, at the very least control the space. so whats your opinion on my idea?
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.09 21:20:00 - [14] Originally by: GoodNDead i don't know.. if you own structures, and patrol space around them by removing hostiles and hostile structures you kinda do, at the very least control the space. so whats your opinion on my idea? this idea would only allow the capture of inactive cloakers who would be nothing but griefing locals witch i don't see a problem with. I understand what you're saying. There are a few small, independant, groups that wander 0.0. The cloak is the only technology that makes this possible. I do not accept that by doing nothing (possibly afk eating lunch) that I would be "griefing" anyone. I'm just flying and living free. Nerfing the cloak would further gridlock 0.0 even more than it is now. We need more freedom of movement to revitalize 0.0 - not less. This proposal would equal less freedom of movement; when so much has been lost over the last few years already. Keep space free - leave a fighting chance for the "little guy" to move through the lands of giants.
GoodNDead Caldari Flaming Fist Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.09 21:26:00 - [15] Edited by: GoodNDead on 09/01/2009 21:27:45 Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: GoodNDead i don't know.. if you own structures, and patrol space around them by removing hostiles and hostile structures you kinda do, at the very least control the space. so whats your opinion on my idea? this idea would only allow the capture of inactive cloakers who would be nothing but griefing locals witch i don't see a problem with. I understand what you're saying. There are a few small, independant, groups that wander 0.0. The cloak is the only technology that makes this possible. I do not accept that by doing nothing (possibly afk eating lunch) that I would be "griefing" anyone. I'm just flying and living free. Nerfing the cloak would further gridlock 0.0 even more than it is now. We need more freedom of movement to revitalize 0.0 - not less. This proposal would equal less freedom of movement; when so much has been lost over the last few years already. Keep space free - leave a fighting chance for the "little guy" to move through the lands of giants. afk? then log.. grief by sitting in a ship with a cyno for hot drops, as scout for hostile fleet, or intel gather, then you should be able to be hunted... the ideas i give would be easily counteractable just by simply changing the direction you fly every few minutes. you can still hover over hostile outpost or jump bridge or gate.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.09 22:21:00 - [16] I can't accept that someone's mere presence in the same system can be considered as equal to greifing. Sorry, I just can't. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.09 23:03:00 - [17] Originally by: GoodNDead i think system scanners should find cloaking ships. yes these are sov modules that wont help those in low sec. but this forces the cloaker to stay active and stay moving. he cant just move in one direction afk because repeat scans would reveal the direction he is moving and players can just mwd gangs in that direction and decloak him. You do realize how big space is, right? In the 23 hours between downtimes, a ship moving 40 km/sec(which I don't think is even possible anymore) can cover 3.312 million kilometres. That's about 0.02 AU. You would need most of a year just to get out to on-board scanner range, if you were flying a pimped Claw 23/7. Put differently, if you'd been doing that the entire time since Eve has launched in 2003, you'd have covered 44 AU, which is a mid-sized warp. You'd cross a big system by sometime in the 2020s. MWDs are a joke for this task.
Brilf	Posted - 2009.01.09 23:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Brilf on 09/01/2009 23:06:18 It's things like the covops cloak and local that set eve apart from other MMOs. Intelligence, counter intelligence, and using "black ops" ships to disrupt an enemies economy just add to the already impressive depth of the game. And FYI there are ways to deal with those players. Just have to be creative.
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.10 01:35:00 - [19] There's an invisible ghost in the corner of by bedroom. He doesn't do anything, he doesn't move, and he doesn't talk. WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH THIS IS HARRASSMENT!!!
Boma Airaken The Divine Comedy Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.10 01:50:00 - [20] Terrorism = Valid tactic. Absolutely no support ever.
Sedious Bloke	Posted - 2009.01.10 02:52:00 - [21] Gl with that Also let it be once again stated that anything you numbnuts ***** about in a cloaking thread i could do in a t1 frig
thesonarnet 0ccam's Razor UNLeashed Legion	Posted - 2009.01.10 08:44:00 - [22] pro it The whole gathering intel through sitting cloaked in a system for hours needs to be overworked at all. Atm you can prevent someone from entering your system unless you have a 23/7 gate camp somewhere and even then it's possible to get one in with a little luck and once you're alt (and that's the next you don't even need a lot of skills for that Eng1neering V + cloak 1 = 10 days max) is in then you can't do anything. Now imagine me starting a Corp which has only one reason, selling intel to whoever has the isk + WTB 50 cloaking 1 ready chars to provide corp mates with the right equipment(they're cheap) and a couple of weeks later every 0.0 system with a station would have a cloaked alt in it you can't do anything to prevent that. I'm sure no one would like to have that situation.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.10 09:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You do realize how big space is, right? In the 23 hours between downtimes, a ship moving 40 km/sec(which I don't think is even possible anymore) can cover 3.312 million kilometres. That's about 0.02 AU. You would need most of a year just to get out to on-board scanner range, if you were flying a pimped Claw 23/7. Put differently, if you'd been doing that the entire time since Eve has launched in 2003, you'd have covered 44 AU, which is a mid-sized warp. You'd cross a big system by sometime in the 2020s. MWDs are a joke for this task. You misunderstand what is going on. If some guy cloaks his recon and jets off into the distance (no mwd, just flying) anyone who lands a 0km hit result on him will end up on a grid with a cloaked ship that is flying in some random direction. This is because the cloaked ship that is supposed to have a cloak will be traveling fast enough that it will clear 2km before the probing ship lands. So, in order to find the cloaker, the probing ship needs to probe again and then approach the new hit result with a propulsion mod on. This will align themselves on the cloaker and then you will run into him, decloaking him. You can do similar things if the cloaker is orbiting point in space. Now, this only works against AFK people because anyone not AFK will notice someone landing on grid and burning to them. This will allow them to change direction and warp out to a new location. This occurs whether or not the ship is able to warp cloaked, since any ship that has a bonus to cloaking devices is able to warp instantly after uncloaking. With such a system present on all probes(as it should be, a system that only had POS system scanners would be an unfair advantage to sov holding entities) then normal cloaking would have its uses, since you could hide from directional scanners(Making it harder to figure out where to scan you down from.) and set up ambushes. And ships with bonuses to cloaking devices would maintain pretty much their entire functionality so long as they were not AFK. It actually kills the "AFK cloaked person has no risk sitting in our space making us assume he is active" problem and (half of) the "raven ratter warps to a safe spot and cloaks the instant anyone enters local" problem in one fell swoop. Give me a bit and maybe i'll write something a bit more formal and readable on the subject that can go in as an issue rather than the unreadable OP.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.10 10:22:00 - [24] And add the "the cloaker is within the bubble, so no chance of living" problem. What is the max range of a HIC bubble? 30 Km? the cloaker running at 500 m/s will need 60 seconds to clear it and can be scanned in 20. So as soon as you warp in a small squad: cov ops, hic, fast ship to decloak it, the cloaker has lost its advantage and kept the drawbacks. At a gate with anchored bubbles it would be even easier.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.10 11:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul And add the "the cloaker is within the bubble, so no chance of living" problem. What is the max range of a HIC bubble? 30 Km? the cloaker running at 500 m/s will need 60 seconds to clear it and can be scanned in 20. So as soon as you warp in a small squad: cov ops, hic, fast ship to decloak it, the cloaker has lost its advantage and kept the drawbacks. At a gate with anchored bubbles it would be even easier. So you require a cloaker to jump into a bubble at 0km from a HIC(which would not allow the cloaker to cloak anyway). Not turn on its MWD before cloaking(standard procedure). A scanner to start scanning at the right time on the gate. The cloaker to not change direction at least one time. Yea, when a cloaker jumps into a camp all of these things minus the scan are already done and people are going to be swarming all over it. The scan doesn't change things in this instance.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.10 15:23:00 - [26] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 10/01/2009 15:23:58 Originally by: thesonarnet Edited by: thesonarnet on 10/01/2009 11:54:04 Edited by: thesonarnet on 10/01/2009 11:53:14 Now imagine me starting a Corp which has only one reason, selling intel to whoever has the isk + WTB 50 cloaking 1 ready chars to provide corp mates with the right equipment(they're cheap) and a couple of weeks later every 0.0 system with a station would have a cloaked alt in it you can't do anything to prevent that. I'm sure no one would like to have that situation. Ever wonder why that hasn't already happened? It's completely viable with the existing game mechanics. Because nobody cares enough to bother; except the anti-cloak whiner crowd. If this was an issue it would already be happening - you're not the first to think of this I promise.
Sedious Bloke	Posted - 2009.01.10 15:29:00 - [27] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.10 15:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Ever wonder why that hasn't already happened? It's completely viable with the existing game mechanics. Because paying for the service is foolish when you can do it yourself.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.10 18:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Venkul Mul And add the "the cloaker is within the bubble, so no chance of living" problem. What is the max range of a HIC bubble? 30 Km? the cloaker running at 500 m/s will need 60 seconds to clear it and can be scanned in 20. So as soon as you warp in a small squad: cov ops, hic, fast ship to decloak it, the cloaker has lost its advantage and kept the drawbacks. At a gate with anchored bubbles it would be even easier. So you require a cloaker to jump into a bubble at 0km from a HIC(which would not allow the cloaker to cloak anyway). Not turn on its MWD before cloaking(standard procedure). A scanner to start scanning at the right time on the gate. The cloaker to not change direction at least one time. Yea, when a cloaker jumps into a camp all of these things minus the scan are already done and people are going to be swarming all over it. The scan doesn't change things in this instance. As it was a reply to your post 1 post above mine about scanning cloakers, I did thought it was pretty clear, but to make it clear, step by step: 1) scan the cloaker with the cov ops 2) warp to the cloaker with the cop ops squad 3) deploy probe and scan while the hic active the bubble, unless the cloaker is extremely fast or the scanner ship war very far away the cloaker is well within the range of the hic bubble, on the other hand the ship with a speed bonus cloaked can't warp cloaked; 4) when the scanning ship get the current cloaker position the whole squad can chase it. It require very fast scanner, but it can be done. Against a ratting ship with a cloak it will work wonderfully as those ship are very slow. So it will, as you put it Quote: kill the "AFK cloaked person has no risk sitting in our space making us assume he is active" problem and (half of) the "raven ratter warps to a safe spot and cloaks the instant anyone enters local" problem in one fell swoop. but it will add Quote: "the cloaker is within the bubble, so no chance of living" problem. problem as I said.
Saralle Zhukov Minmatar Win Tech	Posted - 2009.01.10 20:18:00 - [30] It isn't harrassment it's Reconnaissance, a very useful tactic. It always helps to know what is going on in the systems around you wether your pvp'ing, mining, or getting ready to do whatever. I oppose changes to cloaking.

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