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Hangars ... Is there some technical reason to limit us to 1 hangar?

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Watching	Posted - 2004.07.25 13:53:00 - [1] I created a corp just to have more hangars. A lot of people do probably. Imagine all that office space going to waste just because people want to organize their stuff. Indy's are just not good enough, I would need loads of them just to store my drones (yes I've got tons of them) and my minerals, not to mention all the other stuff. Its been asked so many times, and it seems so easy to implement. Or not?
Watching	Posted - 2004.07.25 13:53:00 - [2] I created a corp just to have more hangars. A lot of people do probably. Imagine all that office space going to waste just because people want to organize their stuff. Indy's are just not good enough, I would need loads of them just to store my drones (yes I've got tons of them) and my minerals, not to mention all the other stuff. Its been asked so many times, and it seems so easy to implement. Or not?
Liquid Metal	Posted - 2004.07.25 13:59:00 - [3] buy containers, thats what i did. "A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
Liquid Metal	Posted - 2004.07.25 13:59:00 - [4] buy containers, thats what i did. "A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
Watching	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Liquid Metal buy containers, thats what i did. They hold even less than an Indy. Not at all usefull if you got a lot of stuff. Hangars are the only decent solution since they have no storage limit. But why do you have to create a 1 man corp just to have some?
Watching	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:07:00 - [6] Originally by: Liquid Metal buy containers, thats what i did. They hold even less than an Indy. Not at all usefull if you got a lot of stuff. Hangars are the only decent solution since they have no storage limit. But why do you have to create a 1 man corp just to have some?
Liquid Metal	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:10:00 - [7] buy lots of containers. "A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
Liquid Metal	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:10:00 - [8] buy lots of containers. "A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:15:00 - [9] Edited by: Armaki Kalear on 25/07/2004 14:21:38 Edited by: Armaki Kalear on 25/07/2004 14:18:24 For each hanger you have, you need to add another place it can be stored in the database. For instance there might currently be Player_Hanger_SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Item_1 Item_2 Item_3 you're asking for SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Player_Hanger01 Item_1 Item_3 Player_Hanger02 Item_2 ...but this doesn't illustrate just how much data it adds on the server. If you do it for one user, you have to do it for every character that has been created. That's a massive amount. The solution is to use containers. With containers CCP don't need to create new data tables for every user, only new data tables for each container. Hopefully we will see larger containers introduced when Shiva comes out. Ideally, unlimited size ones (providing they can't be deployed in space). Edit: Had a little trouble with my lists heh heh -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:15:00 - [10] Edited by: Armaki Kalear on 25/07/2004 14:21:38 Edited by: Armaki Kalear on 25/07/2004 14:18:24 For each hanger you have, you need to add another place it can be stored in the database. For instance there might currently be Player_Hanger_SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Item_1 Item_2 Item_3 you're asking for SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Player_Hanger01 Item_1 Item_3 Player_Hanger02 Item_2 ...but this doesn't illustrate just how much data it adds on the server. If you do it for one user, you have to do it for every character that has been created. That's a massive amount. The solution is to use containers. With containers CCP don't need to create new data tables for every user, only new data tables for each container. Hopefully we will see larger containers introduced when Shiva comes out. Ideally, unlimited size ones (providing they can't be deployed in space). Edit: Had a little trouble with my lists heh heh -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:36:00 - [11] well, if ccp needs to manualy add hangars for each and every player, than i would say "bad programming". "We brake for nobody"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:36:00 - [12] well, if ccp needs to manualy add hangars for each and every player, than i would say "bad programming". "We brake for nobody"
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock well, if ccp needs to manualy add hangars for each and every player, than i would say "bad programming". They don't. Even if they did "need" to, it wouldn't be manual. The point is it adds a lot of unimportant data to the database because of structure. So much so that it's not worth it, particularly when there is another work around. By the way, I'm not a programmer by profession, this is just some guesswork. -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock well, if ccp needs to manualy add hangars for each and every player, than i would say "bad programming". They don't. Even if they did "need" to, it wouldn't be manual. The point is it adds a lot of unimportant data to the database because of structure. So much so that it's not worth it, particularly when there is another work around. By the way, I'm not a programmer by profession, this is just some guesswork. -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Armaki Kalear For each hanger you have, you need to add another place it can be stored in the database. For instance there might currently be Player_Hanger_SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Item_1 Item_2 Item_3 you're asking for SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Player_Hanger01 Item_1 Item_3 Player_Hanger02 Item_2 100% bs Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Armaki Kalear For each hanger you have, you need to add another place it can be stored in the database. For instance there might currently be Player_Hanger_SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Item_1 Item_2 Item_3 you're asking for SayartchenVICarthumConglomerate Player_Hanger01 Item_1 Item_3 Player_Hanger02 Item_2 100% bs Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering.
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Speknek 100% bs Oh? I'm happy enough to believe that but I would prefer if you could substantiate it a little. Originally by: Speknek Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering. Yeah, I thought I mentioned that... -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 14:51:00 - [18] Originally by: Speknek 100% bs Oh? I'm happy enough to believe that but I would prefer if you could substantiate it a little. Originally by: Speknek Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering. Yeah, I thought I mentioned that... -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:08:00 - [19] Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:08:00 - [20] Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc.
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Speknek Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc. I disagree. An eve database with a location attached to every item the database would be significantly slower. It's also not necessary since you never need to (or are permitted to) know where other people's items are. We know there are unique Character IDs and we know there are unique Item IDs (to record a damaged item for example). I would think a given Character has a list of Locations ID's where the Character has stored those items. By storing them, they are owned by the player. A Location ID then simply has a list of Item ID's. Now let's compare your way and mine in terms of what kind of queries the game actually uses. I'm at Sayartchen VI CCW and I open my items tab. Your way requires running a search on all items owned by the player to find a matching Location ID. My way searches all locations ID's for a matching ID and then displays the entire content of the Location ID. This is true for assets, corp assets, jettison containers, adding to escrow etc etc. -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:45:00 - [22] Originally by: Speknek Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc. I disagree. An eve database with a location attached to every item the database would be significantly slower. It's also not necessary since you never need to (or are permitted to) know where other people's items are. We know there are unique Character IDs and we know there are unique Item IDs (to record a damaged item for example). I would think a given Character has a list of Locations ID's where the Character has stored those items. By storing them, they are owned by the player. A Location ID then simply has a list of Item ID's. Now let's compare your way and mine in terms of what kind of queries the game actually uses. I'm at Sayartchen VI CCW and I open my items tab. Your way requires running a search on all items owned by the player to find a matching Location ID. My way searches all locations ID's for a matching ID and then displays the entire content of the Location ID. This is true for assets, corp assets, jettison containers, adding to escrow etc etc. -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Watson	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Watson on 25/07/2004 16:04:20 A long time ago, when they made the multiple hangars for corps, there was a big outcry for this in player-hangars. I think the dev answer was that the database couldn't handle that because if they made say, 4 hangars for each player, they would have to create 4 hangars for each player in each station in the game. I think it was a space issue... well, that also implies that search times would be longer. They can get away with it for corps because the number of corps is much less than the number of people, -and- each corp doesn't have a hangar in every station in the game since you only get corp hangars by renting offices. Quote: Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering. Yeah, I'd like to see something like this... if only the devs would get nudged to do something like this. Cheap giant cans that aren't transportable, call em hangar partitions or whatever, would be nice.
Watson	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:49:00 - [24] Edited by: Watson on 25/07/2004 16:04:20 A long time ago, when they made the multiple hangars for corps, there was a big outcry for this in player-hangars. I think the dev answer was that the database couldn't handle that because if they made say, 4 hangars for each player, they would have to create 4 hangars for each player in each station in the game. I think it was a space issue... well, that also implies that search times would be longer. They can get away with it for corps because the number of corps is much less than the number of people, -and- each corp doesn't have a hangar in every station in the game since you only get corp hangars by renting offices. Quote: Containers are the only way but have limited storage. Easy simple olution would be selling cheap huge cans with a million or more cargo space and volume. They can never leave the station but would help alot for ordering hangars. They should also be able to hold a container in them for even better ordering. Yeah, I'd like to see something like this... if only the devs would get nudged to do something like this. Cheap giant cans that aren't transportable, call em hangar partitions or whatever, would be nice.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Armaki Kalear Originally by: Speknek Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc. I disagree. An eve database with a location attached to every item the database would be significantly slower. It's also not necessary since you never need to (or are permitted to) know where other people's items are. We know there are unique Character IDs and we know there are unique Item IDs (to record a damaged item for example). I would think a given Character has a list of Locations ID's where the Character has stored those items. By storing them, they are owned by the player. A Location ID then simply has a list of Item ID's. Now let's compare your way and mine in terms of what kind of queries the game actually uses. I'm at Sayartchen VI CCW and I open my items tab. Your way requires running a search on all items owned by the player to find a matching Location ID. My way searches all locations ID's for a matching ID and then displays the entire content of the Location ID. This is true for assets, corp assets, jettison containers, adding to escrow etc etc. Thats why databases uses indexes, so they dont have to search through all entries in a table. But im sure ccp got a good reason for not giving everyone multiple hangars, and very big station only cans could help us alot.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.07.25 15:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Armaki Kalear Originally by: Speknek Items are probably stored with location data. Currently they can already be at numerous places. Hangar, corp hangars, fitted on ship, in cargohold of ship, dronebay, etc. I disagree. An eve database with a location attached to every item the database would be significantly slower. It's also not necessary since you never need to (or are permitted to) know where other people's items are. We know there are unique Character IDs and we know there are unique Item IDs (to record a damaged item for example). I would think a given Character has a list of Locations ID's where the Character has stored those items. By storing them, they are owned by the player. A Location ID then simply has a list of Item ID's. Now let's compare your way and mine in terms of what kind of queries the game actually uses. I'm at Sayartchen VI CCW and I open my items tab. Your way requires running a search on all items owned by the player to find a matching Location ID. My way searches all locations ID's for a matching ID and then displays the entire content of the Location ID. This is true for assets, corp assets, jettison containers, adding to escrow etc etc. Thats why databases uses indexes, so they dont have to search through all entries in a table. But im sure ccp got a good reason for not giving everyone multiple hangars, and very big station only cans could help us alot.
Kelly O'Connor	Posted - 2004.07.25 16:03:00 - [27] Cant they make it so you have to rent hangers(except your newbie one), no cost to rent but 100k per week, infinite supply and if they are empty + unused for a week they get revoked?
Kelly O'Connor	Posted - 2004.07.25 16:03:00 - [28] Cant they make it so you have to rent hangers(except your newbie one), no cost to rent but 100k per week, infinite supply and if they are empty + unused for a week they get revoked?
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 16:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Speknek Thats why databases uses indexes, so they dont have to search through all entries in a table. Yeah, but why bother? Originally by: Speknek But im sure ccp got a good reason for not giving everyone multiple hangars, and very big station only cans could help us alot. You think it's not purely a database size issue (as in Gigabytes)? -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2004.07.25 16:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Speknek Thats why databases uses indexes, so they dont have to search through all entries in a table. Yeah, but why bother? Originally by: Speknek But im sure ccp got a good reason for not giving everyone multiple hangars, and very big station only cans could help us alot. You think it's not purely a database size issue (as in Gigabytes)? -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs

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