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Wordsworth Fireheart Gallente Freeform Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:37:00 - [181] Edited by: Wordsworth Fireheart on 15/01/2009 15:37:43 I contest this point that eve ships have no value. Monetary value has been proven by sites where people spend real money to buy in game items, regardless of wether it is a violation of the EULA. Emotional value is linked to the importance we place in an item. We name our ships, we understand the effort placed in obtaining them, we celebrate their victories and mourn their losses We may view them as tools, but even tools can create an emotional attachment in someone. Time spent playing eve is only wasted if you put in the context of out of game productive activities. The destruction of a ship which took two days of ratting to buy, still means the loss had a cost. This is a game, and as such time spent on it is valued by the person playing. I place very little value in collecting stamps, but others pace very great value in that hobby. 'If you can't do something smart, do something psychotic'
M'ing Pai The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:41:00 - [182] Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier Eve is full on involuntary PvP, the question of the thread is do you enjoy my tears and think it's just a game so it's fine you making me cry for the fun of it. I stopped reading this horrid thread right here. Obviously you're delusional. Almost everything you do in this game, be it playing the markets, mining veld, or violencing other people's space ships is consensual PvP. The only thing that doesn't quite fit is mission running, but there are people like myself who try to take your stuff there as well. Why is this true? In most circumstances, we are all vying for the same number of limited resources, and our market system is player driven and highly competitive. You see that undock button? It looks like a caution flag for a reason. From a slightly different angle, I had the pleasure of meeting a few of the devs at a gaming developers conference in Austin, one of whom was the guy who puts all the roids in space. I thanked him for giving me so many tearful miners to splode. He responded by telling me that a) I was the biggest reason for support petitions, and b) I was the target demographic of the game, so I was doing it right. This is a PvP game. You mine my mining alt's veld? I keel you. You compete with my market alt on the market? I keel you. You run missions and litter the system with untouched wrecks and make it more laggy? I keel you. Deal with it, crybear.
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:14:00 - [183] Originally by: Wordsworth Fireheart Edited by: Wordsworth Fireheart on 15/01/2009 15:37:43 I contest this point that eve ships have no value. Monetary value has been proven by sites where people spend real money to buy in game items, regardless of wether it is a violation of the EULA. Emotional value is linked to the importance we place in an item. We name our ships, we understand the effort placed in obtaining them, we celebrate their victories and mourn their losses We may view them as tools, but even tools can create an emotional attachment in someone. Time spent playing eve is only wasted if you put in the context of out of game productive activities. The destruction of a ship which took two days of ratting to buy, still means the loss had a cost. This is a game, and as such time spent on it is valued by the person playing. I place very little value in collecting stamps, but others pace very great value in that hobby. If you choose to put value in your ships that is your problem, not mine. The fact is, in EVE a ship is a tool. And, just like tools in real life, eventually they wear out, they break, they get lost due to carelessness, etc. But ships are tools, they are replaceable, they are expendable. I guess you have made one good point though, and I thank you for that. If I am allowing you to keep your ships long enough that you get emotionally attached to them, then I'm not doing my job well enough. I'll have to get to work on that right away!
Wordsworth Fireheart Gallente Freeform Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:49:00 - [184] Originally by: Eschiava Q Originally by: Wordsworth Fireheart Edited by: Wordsworth Fireheart on 15/01/2009 15:37:43 I contest this point that eve ships have no value. Monetary value has been proven by sites where people spend real money to buy in game items, regardless of wether it is a violation of the EULA. Emotional value is linked to the importance we place in an item. We name our ships, we understand the effort placed in obtaining them, we celebrate their victories and mourn their losses We may view them as tools, but even tools can create an emotional attachment in someone. Time spent playing eve is only wasted if you put in the context of out of game productive activities. The destruction of a ship which took two days of ratting to buy, still means the loss had a cost. This is a game, and as such time spent on it is valued by the person playing. I place very little value in collecting stamps, but others pace very great value in that hobby. If you choose to put value in your ships that is your problem, not mine. The fact is, in EVE a ship is a tool. And, just like tools in real life, eventually they wear out, they break, they get lost due to carelessness, etc. But ships are tools, they are replaceable, they are expendable. I guess you have made one good point though, and I thank you for that. If I am allowing you to keep your ships long enough that you get emotionally attached to them, then I'm not doing my job well enough. I'll have to get to work on that right away! Lol, my moms bigger than your mom! On a more serious note, pirate rhetoric aside, you're right, it is the choice of the person who owns the thing as to what value it has. 'If you can't do something smart, do something psychotic'
low26 Caldari Project Nemesis	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:49:00 - [185] This thread should really die a most horrible death now. It is apparent that the op and others like him live in some strange misguided alternate reality. A reality where Internet spaceships have "Real Value" where loosing them causes "Real Grief" and the people who blow them up are "really Evil" welcome to.....The Griefing Zone....... I look forward to traveling to new and interesting places in this zone. Meeting new and interesting people there, and killing them(in-game)
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:17:00 - [186] Wise morsels we have acquired from this thread: Nothing matters, ever, nothing has ever mattered, or ever will. There is no real life. This game is a fairy tale land of sugar plum fairies. You should trust your life to everyone in this game, including life savings, sexy wives, and nearly legal perky and impressionable daughters. There is no such thing as morality or conscious awareness and thus psychology does not exist. Players are actually automatons incapable of emotion. All those who display negative emotions are disturbed individuals but there is no psychology therefore no emotion, so these people are magical fairies who can have their cake and eat it too. Something went terribly wrong during incubation. We are all sick masochists. To enjoy this game you must appreciate both destroying everything someone else has and having everything you have ingame destroyed in return. You must value these losses in order to appreciate their loss but you may not value these losses in a way that indicates they are valued so therefore you must be in a perpetual state of emotional euphoria at thoughts of destroying and losing imaginary invaluable worthless intangible physical things. We are all not sick masochists but to take enjoyment out of another person's loss or frustration would mean you consider their loss a value and take enjoyment out of taking something of value from them and acquiring it yourself but because it has no value you have gained nothing so you cannot enjoy it and since there is no psychology and we are all automatons you must be a magic fairy too. I would keep going but I grow weary of all the inane babble from automatons and I am not sure anymore if I am an automaton or a magic fairy and since nothing matters, ever, or will, I will stop by saying... /flatline
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:18:00 - [187] Edited by: Eschiava Q on 15/01/2009 18:20:06 .....there's a sign post up ahead.... You have entered...The Griefing Zone Doodoodoodoo, doodoodoodoo I like it! edit after reading Mithos' post: I'm really, really, worried about this one. He's scary!
Shinma Apollo Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:22:00 - [188] Well, I managed the first two pages. You're all ignoring the fact that like all other games, it is played outside the mores of society. Games are just that, a simulation of different values and situations. In a game like eve, it's left open-ended but the initial premise is still there. Now, it's absolutely fallacious to assume or attempt to obligate people into supplanting societal values into said game, without doubly violating it by breaking the golden rule and removing the initial objective of a game itself. It's tantamount to walking into a casino, playing a hand of blackjack, and arguing about paying when you lose based on the fact that you feel the lower hand should win. When you play a game, you implicitly accept its premises for better or worse. The only rules that one agrees to are the ones specified in the EULA, hence checking that accept button. You can choose to abide by a specific code of conduct thereafter, and face the pseudo-societal consequences. (breaking ROE, etc) but these have no direct reflection on one's life outside. The fact that some people wish to make their objective to harass people is perfectly within the lines of this game; attempting to censure them with morality outside the game is both hypocritical and supercilious. Tl;DR Once you agree to play a game, you consent to suffer anything within the rules. Don't like it, don't play.
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:22:00 - [189] Originally by: Eschiava Q Edited by: Eschiava Q on 15/01/2009 18:20:06 .....there's a sign post up ahead.... You have entered...The Griefing Zone Doodoodoodoo, doodoodoodoo I like it! edit after reading Mithos' post: I'm really, really, worried about this one. He's scary! another edit: low, Mithos just proved every point you made in your previous post.
low26 Caldari Project Nemesis	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:26:00 - [190] Rod Serling would have a field day with this thread Q...........
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:29:00 - [191] Originally by: Eschiava Q Edited by: Eschiava Q on 15/01/2009 18:20:06 .....there's a sign post up ahead.... You have entered...The Griefing Zone Doodoodoodoo, doodoodoodoo I like it! edit after reading Mithos' post: I'm really, really, worried about this one. He's scary! We have also proved that Eschiava is incapable of being wrong and therefore must be an all powerful being. Let us supplant this being with vestal virgins and burnt offerings. How am I scary, I thought nothing matters? NOTHING. Let's form a cult. I have a sneaking suspicion half the people who play this game are prime candidates for brainwashing.
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:33:00 - [192] Originally by: Shinma Apollo A lot of truthful statements except for one thing. You sir, seem to place a great amount of esteem in the humanity's ability to separate fantasy and entertainment from reality. Where are these wonderful savants who unabashedly accept and understand the nature of entering into such legal agreement and unerringly know the difference between all in good fun and too much of a good thing?
M'ing Pai The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:34:00 - [193] Originally by: Mithos Victus Nihilistic tears This is a game. Furthermore, this is a competitive game, meaning people will go to great lengths to defeat your efforts. If people take personal stock in their virtual stuffs, and do not take measures to protect themselves in this environment, this is not a game for them. If that's the case with you and the OP, feel free to contract all your virtual stuffs to me on your way out the virtual door. This game isn't for you if you can't hack it. /common sense
de4deye Project Nemesis	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:51:00 - [194] Yeah... well my pixels are better than yours.
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:55:00 - [195] Hey Mithos, As far as I am concerned, you have won this thread. Your ability to make unjustified and unwarrented inferences far surpasses my ability to correct them given the limited time I have here at work. If anyone is still trying to debate the topics here, fine. But I won't bother responding to your drivel any longer. Have fun.
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:55:00 - [196] Originally by: M'ing Pai Originally by: Mithos Victus Nihilistic tears This is a game. Furthermore, this is a competitive game, meaning people will go to great lengths to defeat your efforts. If people take personal stock in their virtual stuffs, and do not take measures to protect themselves in this environment, this is not a game for them. If that's the case with you and the OP, feel free to contract all your virtual stuffs to me on your way out the virtual door. This game isn't for you if you can't hack it. /common sense Is that... psychoanalyzing I sense?
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:57:00 - [197] Originally by: Eschiava Q Hey Mithos, As far as I am concerned, you have won this thread. Your ability to make unjustified and unwarrented inferences far surpasses my ability to correct them given the limited time I have here at work. If anyone is still trying to debate the topics here, fine. But I won't bother responding to your drivel any longer. Have fun. More psychoanalyzing. I am just having fun, you're not having fun anymore?
ldea	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:01:00 - [198] In real life, I have been convicted and served 90 days in county jail for a domestic dispute with my wife. I have since divorced her and have failed to pay any child support for the last 3 years. I also have been arrested for fraud, writing bad checks. Currently, I have a drug and alcohol addcition. In EvE, I play a carebear. I have never scammed, griefed, killed or bothered anyone. I'm the only member of my personal indy corp. I play EvE to release stress and do the right thing. I'm a good guy here. I think alot of people play the game opposite of what they are in real life. So I truely am a good person.
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:28:00 - [199] Excellent post Idea. This really accentuates the fallacy that people who do "bad" things ingame must be bad in real life.
Feilamya Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:36:00 - [200] I have a philosophical question for you to think about. Why do we grief so much more about the loss of replacable internet spaceships than about the lifetime lost reading threads like this, which is lost for ever?
Matrix Skye Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:37:00 - [201] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 15/01/2009 19:38:48 Originally by: Eschiava Q Excellent post Idea. This really accentuates the fallacy that people who do "bad" things ingame must be bad in real life. Um, I don't think anyone has said that because you're a pirate in game you're a pirate in real life. It's more along the lines of doing what you would like to do/be in real life. You could be a good person in life, but it's more attributed to the consequences it might bring on you to be otherwise. Idea's post proves that point rather nicely.
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:37:00 - [202] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 15/01/2009 19:38:58 Originally by: Eschiava Q Excellent post Idea. This really accentuates the fallacy that people who do "bad" things ingame must be bad in real life. I agree it is fallacy. I disagree that something is always or never true. Statements that have such strong language in them without mitigating terminology are almost always false as tautologies in life usually boil down to mathematics. All humans breathe. No, just the living humans. All living humans breathe. No, sometimes they hold their breath. All living humans breathe periodically. No, sometimes they are attached to an iron lung that breathes for them. The farther you go, the more you have to prove, the more you prove, the farther you have to go. Thus tautologies in practical everyday life are almost always a fallacy.
Akira Menoko	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:41:00 - [203] Originally by: Black Bag Is one player a griefer in a any chess match that doesn't end in a draw? Only if the winner does the "neener neener hah hah, you suck I'm awesome, noob" routine. But that's called bad sportsmanship. So maybe instead of calling it griefing (which judging by the amount of discussion appears to be ambiguously defined in the context of EVE) it should instead be referred to as bad sportsmanship.
Eschiava Q Minmatar Blood Money Bootcamp	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:41:00 - [204] Originally by: Shinma Apollo Well, I managed the first two pages. You're all ignoring the fact that like all other games, it is played outside the mores of society. Games are just that, a simulation of different values and situations. In a game like eve, it's left open-ended but the initial premise is still there. Now, it's absolutely fallacious to assume or attempt to obligate people into supplanting societal values into said game, without doubly violating it by breaking the golden rule and removing the initial objective of a game itself. It's tantamount to walking into a casino, playing a hand of blackjack, and arguing about paying when you lose based on the fact that you feel the lower hand should win. When you play a game, you implicitly accept its premises for better or worse. The only rules that one agrees to are the ones specified in the EULA, hence checking that accept button. You can choose to abide by a specific code of conduct thereafter, and face the pseudo-societal consequences. (breaking ROE, etc) but these have no direct reflection on one's life outside. The fact that some people wish to make their objective to harass people is perfectly within the lines of this game; attempting to censure them with morality outside the game is both hypocritical and supercilious. Tl;DR Once you agree to play a game, you consent to suffer anything within the rules. Don't like it, don't play. Somehow I managed to skip over this post before, but reading it now, I find this is a much better exposition of an idea I have been toying with than I would have made if I had written it. Good job Shinma, I agree 100%!
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:41:00 - [205] Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 15/01/2009 19:38:48 Originally by: Eschiava Q Excellent post Idea. This really accentuates the fallacy that people who do "bad" things ingame must be bad in real life. Um, I don't think anyone has said that because you're a pirate in game you're a pirate in real life. It's more along the lines of doing what you would like to do/be in real life. You could be a good person in life, but it's more attributed to the consequences it might bring on you to be otherwise. Idea's post proves that point rather nicely. Agreed Matrix. I think one of the main issues here is that everyone wants to make grand philosophical statements but so very few have a philosophical background of any kind. Even the people claiming that there exists no morality or ethics in the game, are making a grand philosophical statement that very few are able to back up with actual credible theory other than a folk psychology and subsequent ethical ruleset of their own as opposed to philosophically relevant arguments.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:43:00 - [206] Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier a space ship flying game Think about it for a minute... it's a game... beating other people is the goal... Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier I myself feel bad if I cause someone anger and frustration in real life You're so right. I guess we should tell our children to give up their dreams of being Olympic athletes, too, because they would feel bad if they made somebody else go home with silver...
Dennmoth Ferdier	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:03:00 - [207] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier a space ship flying game Think about it for a minute... it's a game... beating other people is the goal... Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier I myself feel bad if I cause someone anger and frustration in real life You're so right. I guess we should tell our children to give up their dreams of being Olympic athletes, too, because they would feel bad if they made somebody else go home with silver... 1. Maybe your goal in the game. 2. My children would never be athletes. That's just about even worse waste of time than playing eve.
Dennmoth Ferdier	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:04:00 - [208] Originally by: low26 To the op, I believe EVE simply is not the game for you. You should try a less competitive game. EVE is the best MMORPG imo because of it's unique game mechanics (which allot of players don't bother to learn) You can be very safe in high sec if you learn the game mechanics. To try to pin some silly moral code or psychology to a video game is just plain crazy. You say loosing a ship is a real loss because of the time you put into getting said ship. You put time into watching a television to, if you miss that because of something are you griefed also? When you start comparing a game to real life it fails on so many levels. Primarily you are putting a monetary or some other like value on your in-game time. Time that is suppose to be recreation time, recreation by it's very nature is wasted time. By putting some sort of real life value on in-game items it get's problematic because then what you do in -game becomes more like work rather than a form of entertainment. I love EVE and all aspects of it, and the various playstiles I encounter in it. This thread is not intended to reflect as a whine. It's mind storm.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:05:00 - [209] Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier ------ Heart for isk, Balls for risk. Your sig is really funny, considering your OP!
M'ing Pai The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:05:00 - [210] Originally by: Mithos Victus Originally by: M'ing Pai Originally by: Mithos Victus Nihilistic tears This is a game. Furthermore, this is a competitive game, meaning people will go to great lengths to defeat your efforts. If people take personal stock in their virtual stuffs, and do not take measures to protect themselves in this environment, this is not a game for them. If that's the case with you and the OP, feel free to contract all your virtual stuffs to me on your way out the virtual door. This game isn't for you if you can't hack it. /common sense Is that... psychoanalyzing I sense? No, just plain truth. If someone gets enraged over a competitive video game to the point they actually feel they've been personally wronged for being beaten, then they should pick a different game. If that video game happens to be EVE, then they can contract all their stuffs to me.

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