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SickSeven
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:42:00 -
[1]
Ok, the devs gave a cookie cutter "we will look into it" answer about Minmatar Caps. I guess that's better than nothing but I'm not holding my breath on when they are actually going to look at cap rebalance. If you dont know about the Minmatar Cap Ship problem there are plenty of threads or just ask the first hobo in EVE you see, the can tell you. The split weapon design and 'tempest style' slot layout are the two factors at the forefront. A leading argument/idea is to make the Nag projectile specific, wich makes sense.
The problem with changing the HI-slot layout of a Nag is they would have to redo the entire ship(graphically) to add a third turrett. SO, they need to only give it TWO weapon hardpoints and give it a special bonus of +100% capital projectile damage. and replace the torp refire bonus with a capital projectile tracking bonus. Leave it's crappy tank and give it better offensive potential than any other dread. In EFT with with rough math, a 100% damage bonus with arties, would give it about 2200-2300 dps, not great at all compared to the others.(this is equal setups in EFT with NO damage mods) However, would give it the biggest Alpha strike by far. With ACs it would still be behind the blaster Moros by around 200-300 dps.
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Clansworth
Blackwater USA Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.16 09:49:00 -
[2]
Nonsense complaint.. I mean, the thing is vertical.. VERTICAL MAN!!! Don't you realize how awesome that makes it? All this complaining about slot layouts and hardpoints and such is moot when the ship looks like a mid-90s skysc****r coasting through the sky! |
Adaera
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:48:00 -
[3]
Just make it... horizontal! :O
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Nikita Alterana
Gallente
The Antikythera Mechanism
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:12:00 -
[4]
A better solution would be to give it the inherent weapon bonuses to one or both of its weapons, so you can:
a. fit no damage mods and still hit as hard as the other dreads
b. fit them and hit a good deal harder
as proposed in the OP, keep its tank at less the standard, it forces the player to choose between gank and tank. Meaning that the minmatar carrier becomes less of a 'its the weakest lets shoot it first' and more of a 'we don't know what it has, we'll save it for last'
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I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it!
I'm also training Minmatar Capitals!
And I eat Lions! |
SickSeven
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Posted - 2009.01.18 04:59:00 -
[5]
well one serious reply.
Yes vertical does look awesome but doesn't really make up for all it's practical faults now does it? |
Sojet
Gallente
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.18 11:33:00 -
[6]
You clearly don't realise just how vertical it is.
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Animals have the right to be tasty.
End domestic abuse- because a man shouldn't have to ask twice. |
Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.01.18 18:00:00 -
[7]
i also agree that the ship is very vertical but do also think that it would be awesome for it to be a strictly gun based platform
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Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 20:53:00 -
[8]
As a user of the Naglfa the weapon system layout is fine. leave it alone.
While Im not saying don't buff it (never look a gift horse in the mouth) but there are other ways to buff it without affecting the weapon systems. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.18 23:54:00 -
[9]
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.19 08:40:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: SickSeven
If you dont know about the Minmatar Cap Ship problem there are plenty of threads or just ask the first hobo in EVE you see, the can tell you. The split weapon design and 'tempest style' slot layout are the two factors at the forefront. A leading argument/idea is to make the Nag projectile specific, wich makes sense.
I have never understood this argument to be honest. Minmatar ships are split weapon ships and always will be. The Naglfar is the epitome of Matari design.
I dont like your idea of a Marauder style turrets but if their were ever Tier 2 dreads then yes a pure turret base would be its design. (Tempest/Maelstrom) The Naglfar is old school Minmatar and imho is perfect. Yes its dps is low and yes its tank is weak but why does everyone always want to change the lowest ranked ship ?
With 4x races and 4x dreads someone has to be top and someone has to be bottom. With all the fotm training does it really make a difference ? Revelations are one of the most popular dreads so again does our ship need changing. Im a 100% Minmatar only pilot and will continue to be for my entire capsuleer life. I fully understand that we are split weapons and fully understand our midslot/low slot layouts gimp our tanks but I wouldnt change it for all the datacores in Jita.
Do projectiles as a whole need tweaking, yes. Clip sizes and damage mods could do with improving. Hybrids have really decent numbers across the board and Projectiles should be better on at least 1 atribute. If projectiles got their buff then the Naglfar buff would reach a natural conclusion.
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SickSeven
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
I have never understood this argument to be honest. Minmatar ships are split weapon ships and always will be. The Naglfar is the epitome of Matari design.
I dont like your idea of a Marauder style turrets but if their were ever Tier 2 dreads then yes a pure turret base would be its design. (Tempest/Maelstrom) The Naglfar is old school Minmatar and imho is perfect. Yes its 2. dps is low and yes its tank is weak but why does everyone always want to change the lowest ranked ship ?
With 4x races and 4x dreads someone has to be top and 1. someone has to be bottom. With all the fotm training does it really make a difference ? 3.Revelations are one of the most popular dreads so again does our ship need changing. Im a 100% Minmatar only pilot and will continue to be for my entire capsuleer life. I fully understand that we are split weapons and fully understand [b]4.our midslot/low slot layouts gimp our tanks[/] but I wouldnt change it for all the datacores in Jita.
Do projectiles as a whole need tweaking, yes. Clip sizes and damage mods could do with improving. Hybrids have really decent numbers across the board and Projectiles should be better on at least 1 atribute. If projectiles got their buff then the Naglfar buff would reach a natural conclusion.
Ok...
1. So you think it's completely satisfactory to have outrigth imbalance in the game? No ship should be overall worst in it's class. Then why even make the ship? It's a waste of resources to put a ship in this game that is by default going to be crappier than all the competition at every role!!!
2. You are correct on both points. So why in the hell would anyone want to fly this ship? It has no role, and no advantage in ANY situation over another dread. A lot of Minmatar pilots train another races dread so they feel they are actually contributing!! And that's okay with you?
3. So why is the Rev the most popular dread? Hmm, no reloading, wich can be a great advantage in laggy fights. Good damage and tank too. Well what the hell is it's disadvangage? Oh right, only does EM/Therm. Not really that big of a deal, but a drawback. Obviously not enough of a drawback to keep people from flying it, unlike the long list of problems with the Nag.
4. If our tanks our gimped by default then shouldn't our damage make up for it? Oh wait, you dont believe in balance do you?
In my book, it is not OK for the Minmatar dread to have to require 70+days of extra training to maximize it's second weapon system only to come out sub-par to EVERY other Dread in EVERY category.
If Nag is going to be gimped by default then let it have a gimped tank. CCP needs to do whatever it takes to give the NAG the largest Alhpa Strike of any dread by a big margin. That would give it a role to make it worth flying in my opinion.
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Reela Virge
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Posted - 2009.01.19 20:32:00 -
[12]
Naglfar has 2 issues:
- It uses one more slot(of the total 16 all dreads have) for weapons, so it has one less slot for utility mid-, low-slot modules. One fix could be to give the Naglfar one more slot then other dreads.
- To do a dps-focused fit you need double the amount damage mods then other dreads for the same result.
Anyhoot it's
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.19 20:35:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Ok...
1. So you think it's completely satisfactory to have outrigth imbalance in the game? No ship should be overall worst in it's class. Then why even make the ship? It's a waste of resources to put a ship in this game that is by default going to be crappier than all the competition at every role!!!
Something has to be bottom unfortunatly its the naglfar. I will reiterate that changing projectiles could improve the naglfars situation.
Quote:
2. You are correct on both points. So why in the hell would anyone want to fly this ship? It has no role, and no advantage in ANY situation over another dread. A lot of Minmatar pilots train another races dread so they feel they are actually contributing!! And that's okay with you?
Its not ok with me and it never has been I rolled minmatar and will stick by them 100% I really love Fred Fred and i can see how i can get the best out of him. You need to think beyond the cookie cutter and think hard on how to fly our ships. regardless of what EFT tells you sometimes sacrifices need to be made Its how we live, Yeah it can suck some days but thats what we do. live with it or cross train. I have been flying the naglfar for a while now and so far in fleet it is really holding its own. I dont see any dread constantly being outpreformed and the Naglfar is always high on the KM's in live usage the Naglfar does pretty well.
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3. So why is the Rev the most popular dread? Hmm, no reloading, wich can be a great advantage in laggy fights. Good damage and tank too. Well what the hell is it's disadvangage? Oh right, only does EM/Therm. Not really that big of a deal, but a drawback. Obviously not enough of a drawback to keep people from flying it, unlike the long list of problems with the Nag.
The rev is popular because it often has the highest real damage against a pos bash and the logistics of reloading and cargo etc does make a diffference. I woul dlike to see your long list of problems for the naglfar. When you take a real look at it can you see how perfect it is as a Minmatar designed ship ? Yes projectiles need a complete overhaul and yes the split weapon system is ver very hard to live with but the actual Naglfar layout and grid is pretty spot on by design.
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4. If our tanks our gimped by default then shouldn't our damage make up for it? Oh wait, you dont believe in balance do you?
In my book, it is not OK for the Minmatar dread to have to require 70+days of extra training to maximize it's second weapon system only to come out sub-par to EVERY other Dread in EVERY category.
you really have to learn to deal with it. Minmatar as a race get ****ed for sp and skill training. yeah it makes me cry every damn day but I wouldnt ever cross train. Most people dont care about purity and will simply train for whatever they want. Its hard to remember that this is just a game and CCP cater for everyone.
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5) If Nag is going to be gimped by default then let it have a gimped tank. CCP needs to do whatever it takes to give the NAG the largest Alhpa Strike of any dread by a big margin. That would give it a role to make it worth flying in my opinion.
Alpha strike has suffered with the hp buff and i will 100% agree with you that this is an issue but PLEASE PLEASE dont change the nag because of it. Change Projectiles, change citadel torps. but the naglfar as a ship is ****ing perfect.
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