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[Idea] PvP Rebalancing Suggestions

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Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:19:00 - [1] In my humble opinion, PvP in this game started down a slippery slope back in early 2006. Each successive major expansion has added elements to the game which make it more and more difficult to engage in non-consensual PvP; which I consider to be one of the major foundations that this game is predicated upon. Does this mean that I believe that no fights are taking place in EVE anymore? No at all, but I do believe that fights are moving more and more towards fleet battles and shoving piracy, faction warfare and skirmish warfare aside. A few of these suggestions probably could warrant their own thread, but I don't want to behave like some people do in this section of the forums and slap every half witted idea I have into a new thread. Here we go: 1) Make local chat delayed mode. At the same time, give the scanner screen a passive "always on" mode that is chance based, linked to signature radius, and is system wide. When turned on it will constantly scan the entire system, it has a chance based ability to notice incoming ships based on their signature radius. i.e. A rifter may not ever be detected while on the other hand a Thanatos has zero chance of hiding. 2) Reduce the size of all non 0.0 chokepoint gates to the size of the original Amarr gate. 3) Roll back the agility boost from Quantum Rise. This is a free pass for anything cruiser sized and lower... and when coupled with the ginormous new warp gates they are simply invincible. 4) Give haulers and industrials a 99% reduction in CPU cost of Warp Core Stabilizers and make them cost 5000 CPU to fit. Haulers and industrials don't have the means to defend themselves, combat ships do. We need more standing and fighting in this game and less running away like sissy girls. 5) Remove Warp to Zero and replace it with a skill called Warp Accuracy. This skill will reduce how close you can warp to a gate by 2 km per level. i.e. lvl 5 Warp Accuracy allows you to warp to within 5km instead of 15. 6) Raise insurance payout of T2 ships to within a reasonable cost of the hulls. 75% would be reasonable and would cause people to reconsider standing and fighting instead of running scared. 7) Remove Jump Bridges OR raise the fuel cost for Jump Bridges by at least double to discourage using them 100% of the time. Jump Bridges are a free pass from PVP, and allow alliances to police way more territory than they have any business holding in the first place. i.e. Smashkill had no real business holding all of geminate, they simply used Jump Bridges to police it and when a dedicated alliance came knocking they crumbled in less than a month. 8) Station hugging. Undocking from a station should automatically place the player 5,000M from the station and moving away at full speed. If you undock, then you should be ready to fight, if not, then WoW is thatta way. 9) Cloaking Devices. Cloaks should all have their CPU raised to 5000 and all ships designed to fit them should have a 99% CPU reduction. Recons, Bombers, Black Ops... ect. 10) Trial accounts should not be allowed to enter low sec or null sec. If you want to scout then pay for your second account, ask a friend to scout you or fly something that you can afford to lose. 11) NPC corporations should charge taxes based on skillpoints. The more skillpoints you have, the more they tax you. A 30 million SP char in an NPC corp would be paying 50% taxes as an example. 12) Corporations who leave an alliance during a war should still be attackable during the duration of the initial war. After the initial period they will not longer be legal targets.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:33:00 - [2] Wow... quite refreshing to see a PVP'er with enough foresight to actually keep balance in check. Some of your ideas however are slightly flawed... but far better than a lot of the stuff I keep seeing... ill wait and watch for comments before I make my own conclusions. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:58:00 - [3] Some good, some bad, many interesting. I think 2, 6, 7, 8, and 12 are good. 1, 3, and 9 are real problems but I think your solutions need work. 4 was basically solved with the stab nerf a couple years ago, and even more so with the new importance of scrams - if combat ships want to gimp themselves for questionable benefit, let them. 5 is interesting, but ultimately doomed to failure and database-breaking numbers of instas. And 10 and 11 are just dumb. I think you're missing the more fundamental problem, though - people don't have enough reason to go to areas where nonconsensual PvP happens. Lowsec sucks, and 0.0 is dominated by gargantuan alliances. Fix the risk/reward for small groups in unsecured space, and you'll get a lot more action going on, even if none of these changes are implemented.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:20:00 - [4] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Fix the risk/reward for small groups in unsecured space, and you'll get a lot more action going on, even if none of these changes are implemented. I agree.. the percieved iron grip of the mega-alliances and the inability of most small groups to learn to adapt to the threats/gain the rewards of unsecured space is the key.
Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:30:00 - [5] Risk reward for 0.0 is another topic entirely. Personally, I find hundreds and hundreds of people in null sec every day. The incentives must already be there at least in some small part. The only problem is that CCP has handed them a smorgasbord of tricks and tactics with which to avoid PvP. Should there be methods to avoid combat? Yes, there should. However, currently the field is heavily skewed in favor of avoiding combat rather than engaging in it. All anyone has to do is refer to my partial list below for some of the most common methods of avoidance. Us PvP'ers on the other hand get THIS and THIS. Two methods to engage in PvP vs. 12+ to avoid it? Yeah, that's a bit skewed. ---------------------------------
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:23:00 - [6] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 17/01/2009 19:24:19 The rewards are there... just they only draw professional 0.0 survivalists. When I think back to a couple years ago, it was actually a lot easier to roam free and avoid combat: Everyone had libraries of insta-jump bookmarks. Stabs had no penalites. There were no ships that could use warp-bubbles. What has changed is the environment: Logistics/hauling almost completely avoids the gate systems. Small runners get caught in interdictor bubbles. Shopping and travel are just a jump-clone away. Cynos pop open left and right like fireworks in some areas. If you're in with the local power-alliance; you basically have a different solar system and different travel network than independent or hostile roamers. Why bother with the potentially dangerous main roads when you have private and almost 100% secure back-stage passes? ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Risk reward for 0.0 is another topic entirely. Personally, I find hundreds and hundreds of people in null sec every day. The incentives must already be there at least in some small part. The only problem is that CCP has handed them a smorgasbord of tricks and tactics with which to avoid PvP. Should there be methods to avoid combat? Yes, there should. However, currently the field is heavily skewed in favor of avoiding combat rather than engaging in it. All anyone has to do is refer to my partial list below for some of the most common methods of avoidance. Us PvP'ers on the other hand get THIS and THIS. Two methods to engage in PvP vs. 12+ to avoid it? Yeah, that's a bit skewed. I was referring as much to lowsec as to 0.0, and it's not another issue at all. More people = more fights, and you get more people when it sucks less. Also, a simple enumeration of the modules that let you fight vs modules that let you not fight is entirely useless. It's the equivalent of saying that because there are 24 frigates and only 12 battleships, frigates must be twice as good. Besides, you forgot a bunch of them - THIS, THIS, and THIS, off the top of my head.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:32:00 - [8] Oh - I really like ideas: 1, 7, and 12
Tryptic Photon Gallente Mad Bombers Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:09:00 - [9] Great, well thought-out list Neesa. I also think you should not be able to jump through a gate if you are warp scrambled. Maybe that's taking it a bit too far hehe.
Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Besides, you forgot a bunch of them - THIS, THIS, and THIS, off the top of my head. Lets not split hairs. You and I both know full well that those are merely variations on a theme. I merely gave the two most common variations on that theme. ---------------------------------
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:12:00 - [11] Supporting 2,3,4,8,10,11. Local fix is already being worked on by CCP. WTZ is fine. Maybe jumping into a system should kick you out farther to make up for the 60% webs? T2 insurance is fine, if you can't afford it then fly tech 1. Chance of CSM being a crucial part in getting any of these suggestions to Tranq? Zero point zero percent :( -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Vaal Erit Supporting 2,3,4,8,10,11. Local fix is already being worked on by CCP. WTZ is fine. Maybe jumping into a system should kick you out farther to make up for the 60% webs? T2 insurance is fine, if you can't afford it then fly tech 1. Chance of CSM being a crucial part in getting any of these suggestions to Tranq? Zero point zero percent :( Oh, I'm not fooling myself. I realize that none of these changes are going to be made, even removing local won't actually happen once the carebears start threatening to quit. A couple of points: This game has shifted from being a harsh, gritty game of consequences to one where there is very little risk involved as long as you take a few very easy precautions. Carebears are a vast majority of the game currently. Therefore, any changes that reduce the safety of carebears will cause them to quit, which will hurt CCP's wallet... which they won't allow to happen. You can expect most changes to PvP from this point on to favor the industrialist / carebear crowd since that's the machine that feeds CCP's bank accounts, and with the economic situation that Iceland is in, they simply can't take any chances. This post is basically my last hurrah before I throw my hands up in disgust, and let the carebears have what they've whined so hard to create. If by some incredible miracle they actually implement a couple of these changes (Delayed local at least ffs), then EVE will be worth sticking around for. Currently my play style has been pushed aside in favor of other play styles, so there's really no incentive for me to keep handing CCP my money. shrug ---------------------------------
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.18 01:08:00 - [13] At first I was like holy wall of text batman! This probably isn't worth reading... Then I was like I should have thought of this stuff! If either 8 or 9 ever were to go into effect in EVE, I would have a sex change and have your babies.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.18 02:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Besides, you forgot a bunch of them - THIS, THIS, and THIS, off the top of my head. Lets not split hairs. You and I both know full well that those are merely variations on a theme. I merely gave the two most common variations on that theme. Your line was "Two methods to engage in PvP vs. 12+ to avoid it? Yeah, that's a bit skewed." - there's no counting system that results in those numbers, and even if it was the case it's irrelevant. I'm agreeing with you on the overall topic, I just think that that particular argument sucked. ----------- Herschel's Cruiser BPC Store
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:23:00 - [15] So you say that you suck at gatecamping so bad you need all of these to catch anything?
eliminator2 Gallente Young Enterprise Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2009.01.18 09:18:00 - [16] some excellent ideas i liked the one about the warp skill for making it 5km at lv5 is balanced for both pvp and traveling not like the current system
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:04:00 - [17] Changing the warp-to distance won't work. It will result in the recreation of the insta-warp bookmark market. If you are too young to remember the insta-warp bookmark market - Get off my lawn!
barvo The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:15:00 - [18] Edited by: barvo on 18/01/2009 13:16:06 Number 5, changing the warp to distance to a skill isn't a very good idea imo, because if you're using it to catch people travelling in order to pew pew them, all you're going to end up doing is catching more of the noobs. It will quickly become a must-learn skill for everyone, much like learning or navigation, so the only ones who end up warping in to 10km from the gate are first dayers in their shiny new atrons. Pirate broadswords will shudder under the gallant return fire, assuming of course that the poor victim realises what the hell is going on. Whilst this is a great way to pad out killboards, killing more noobs in front of the gates to highsec isn't exactly bringing back thrilling PVP combat, and it's far from newbie-friendly. Having said all that, most of your other points are well-considered. I'm interested to see which ones travel the furthest :)
Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.18 14:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 18/01/2009 12:10:58 Changing the warp-to distance won't work. It will result in the recreation of the insta-bookmark market. If you are too young to remember the insta-bookmark market - Get off my lawn! I probably made 1-2 billion selling sets of instas, so yes I remember them very well. Remember that these aren't fully fleshed out ideas. Any rollback of WTZ would absolutely have to come with a limitation such as... No BM's can be made within 115km of a gate or something similarly creative.
Yarik Mendel Privateers	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:18:00 - [20] Eve used to be a cutthroat pvp game, it isn't anymore, please fix it.
The PitBoss Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:04:00 - [21] I endorse this thread
Slave 775 Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:11:00 - [22] supported
Frayen Unity Thru Aggression	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:14:00 - [23] Eve has become a pool of whining carebears who sit and make isk and horde it like it is real money. Let us take away their money and liberate their soul. The only way save Eve is to kill it one pixel at a time.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:51:00 - [24] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 18/01/2009 17:52:03 There's plenty of whining all around - don't give all the credit to the cearbears. I still see plenty of good pvp engagements on a regular basis. There's a lot of whining, lazy pvp'ers in this galaxy who give the cearbears some competition in the "biggest bucket of tears" contest. (note: I don't think the Op of this thread is one of them) ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Xiao LoPan	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:14:00 - [25] looks like another "force everyone else to play the way I want them to" thread between the pvpers who want to turn this into space call of duty, industrialists who want to end all loot drops and miners that want to end all drone rewards, people are trying to end all choice in the game. play the game they way you want but don't expect everyone else to be there just to be your "content"
sgt spike Sicarri Covenant Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:27:00 - [26] some interesting thoughts there personally i only began playing this game because i was interested in the competetive no holds barred world it offered, and non consensual pvp has to be a part of that. not taking part in pvp has to have a price, as does taking part, jumping into lo sec or 0.0 is showing that you have taken the choice to become a target. being declared war on does not. however there are too many price free ways these days to avoid combat. non consensual pvp is the only reason i am not playing another mmorpg can you put a price on peace?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:48:00 - [27] These ideas are largely terrible.
Neesa Corrinne Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.18 22:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Goumindong These ideas are largely terrible. No, they simply don't pander to your version of EVE which is ginormous fleet vs ginormous fleet. ---------------------------------
Zielesch	Posted - 2009.01.18 23:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Zielesch on 18/01/2009 23:15:14 Thread gets my vote, but I think some of it is just dreaming. 3, 4, 7 I just don't see happening regardless of any good reasoning. Eve is too much in favour of avoiding PvP these days - that is for sure. Personally I'm an advocate of solo playing quite often, the buzz of the 1v1 (combat setups on both sides ideally). Catching targets which just station or gate hug proves very difficult. They can take a shot and if they don't like how its going, get out. In such cases, which make up majority of fights, the defender dictates if he wants to fight or not. It becomes more efficient to fly around in large groups who can just insta pop targets before they have a chance to react.....but boring as hell with a definite lack of buzz. Originally by: Xiao LoPan people are trying to end all choice in the game. The lack of choices currently preset in Eve is exactly what puts me on a downer. Fleet up & instapop stuff or mission & horde ISK.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.18 23:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne No, they simply don't pander to your version of EVE which is ginormous fleet vs ginormous fleet. No, they're simply terrible. Your ad hom aside.

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