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PhuleDR
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Posted - 2009.01.21 07:22:00 -
[31]
Just wondering:
Have you ever opened up your star map and told it to display the average number of pilots in space in the last 30 minutes and cross match that result with the number of pod or ship kills in the last hour? Seems like we already have a rapid but imprecise method for checking for the likelihood of a camp. Does get knocked around a little by station systems but if everyone is docked up, there won't be many ship losses.
For example:
You open up you star map and see 50 pilots on average over the past 30 minutes with 15 ship losses and 14 pod kills. You have a heavy proximity alert.
You open up you star map and see 1 pilot on average over the past 30 minutes with 0 ship losses and 0 pod kills. You have a no proximity alert.
Of course, if people are shifting their camps between systems then the average pilot count may be delayed but it's only a reflection of likelihood of a camp.
Personally though I like the idea of probes through gates as it would potentially give my Cheetah another possible role to play and makes shifting goodies through 0.0 almost childishly simple and I wouldn't need to pay a carrier pilot. |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.01.21 12:31:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: PhuleDR
Have you ever opened up your star map and told it to display the average number of pilots in space in the last 30 minutes and cross match that result with the number of pod or ship kills in the last hour? Seems like we already have a rapid but imprecise method for checking for the likelihood of a camp.
The prevailing opinion I got in Crime and Punishment asking about the starmap was that it was almost useless for this sort of intel, because it doesn't differentiate enough and has quite a delay on it.
For example, self-destructs adding to the kills list, FW combat, a POS being sieged; these all have effects on the stats you indicate without ever being a gatecamp. I've jumped into several systems that by the above map stats should be death-central, and found things like the remnants of a major alliance battle over a POS or somesuch and a bunch of pods zipping out.
You can just about use the map to spot combat hotspots. It will never tell you if the system is safe to jump into, or whether it's heavily camped at that specific gate. |
Lord AtTiLAs
Radioactive Poptarts
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Posted - 2009.01.22 01:01:00 -
[33]
Thanks for all your feedback. Really appreciate it.
To answer your question PhuleDR, the real purpose of the GPS system is just to avoid unfair fight 1vs25 because you had absolutely no tool to make a decision before jumping. Couple of years ago map used to give real time info on number of people in the system. But here, im not looking at system wide information, just a system to complement the inboard scanner every ship already has.
Example, if you jump in a system where there is 30 hostile in local but they are not at the gate you just jumped in, you will use you scanner to at least see if they are located at your next destination Stargate. If they are, chance you will no warp to that Stargate. But if you warp there it is probably because you didn't use your inboard scanner and just took a chance. You will then get destroyed by them, but at least you had a way to make a decision to warp there.
Jumping through gate while looking at the delayed star map doesn't help you avoid this kind of situation.
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Lord AtTiLAs
Radioactive Poptarts
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Posted - 2009.01.22 01:05:00 -
[34]
Gate probe could be a complementary use of the GPS. Since in my Idea GPS doesn't detect clocked ship, you could send probe to more precisely identify the source of the your inboard proximity sensor without alerting the other side group of your presence...
Sending probe at every gate is just time consuming and will not get the quick information result I suggesting with the Gate Proximity Sensor.
Thanks
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Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.22 02:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Valefar Mothra
It still makes perfect sense. When mission running, the rewards are pretty much guaranteed. There's little or no chance of special, ultra high value loot. So basically there's no risk, but at least you know exactly what you get, as opposed to other, riskier endeavors which have a much wider swing as far as obtainable loot/ISK. Sorry for the unclear statement in my post above. But it's beside the point anyway. GPS idea is still awesome.
My point was more that people make hundreds of millions (if not billions) mission running in high sec with little to no risk. While it's more or less entirely unrelated to gatecamping, I sometimes use the analogy to explain to people why gate camping is often appealing. It's for the same reason as mission running. There's guaranteed ISK to be made and minimal risk.
That's all a tangent though and only related to this thread via the topic of gatecamps. As for using the starmap, I tend to use it occasionally while roaming but the delay really makes it tough. The map can show 15 ships destroyed and 40 in system, but 5 minutes later when you get in system, it's completely empty. The majority of gates that are camped have a tendency of being camped, i.e. they're well traveled choke points. I made note of some of these before but pretty much any gate that leads from a lvl 4, decent quality agent into low sec is likely to have a camp. Rancer is always camped.
I don't really have much else to add to the GPS idea as I've said all I really need to say. Namely, that this probe/scanner would not in any way influence my ability to lock down or camp a gate with reasonable efficieny and I would continue to do as I do now. It could be effective against the previously mentioned "hacks in 5 BS" but not any competent camp.
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Lord AtTiLAs
Radioactive Poptarts
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Posted - 2009.01.22 18:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
I don't really have much else to add to the GPS idea as I've said all I really need to say. Namely, that this probe/scanner would not in any way influence my ability to lock down or camp a gate with reasonable efficieny and I would continue to do as I do now. It could be effective against the previously mentioned "hacks in 5 BS" but not any competent camp.
That is right, camp will still be used and will have is researched effect. But will get less easy kill. You will still get a lot because most people will want to pass anyway and possibly have is ship fitted for that purpose. But those that try will have decided to do so. That will make lot more sens that trapping people that rush back the Stargate.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.22 18:44:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
My point was more that people make hundreds of millions (if not billions) mission running in high sec with little to no risk. While it's more or less entirely unrelated to gatecamping, I sometimes use the analogy to explain to people why gate camping is often appealing. It's for the same reason as mission running. There's guaranteed ISK to be made and minimal risk.
I don't know that they really make money off it, but gate camping seems to be a form of farming like missions. In the case of gate camps, its killmail farming. Rancer is a great example, those guys will warp off any time someone brings a fight to them. They are not looking for PVP. There are several gates in 0.0 that are the same way, camped 23/7 where the people are farming killmails. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.22 19:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hesperius
I don't know that they really make money off it, but gate camping seems to be a form of farming like missions. In the case of gate camps, its killmail farming. Rancer is a great example, those guys will warp off any time someone brings a fight to them. They are not looking for PVP. There are several gates in 0.0 that are the same way, camped 23/7 where the people are farming killmails.
It's interesting that you use the example of Rancer. It would be unfair to say that the united never fights. I know of several occasions just off-hand where they brought a decent fight (the Molotov/Roids v. united/NEO fight awhile back springs to mind). But the most interesting bit for me is that you claim camps don't make ISK. Ask the united how much ISK they can potentially generate in a day from smartbombing shuttles and ceptors.
Also, PvP in general is a pretty poor way of making ISK in EvE. There are a lot of other professions that can make ISK more safely and with more success. For example, all of them. Ransoms can generate ISK, but they can be hard to come by. Loot can keep you in ships but won't make you rich unless you get luck. PvP is done for the sake of fun. The argument can definetly be made that gate camps aren't fun. I can also say that some of the most fun small gang fights I've had have resulted from a camp.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.22 20:17:00 -
[39]
I only mentioned rancer because you brought it up. Every time Ive heard of anyone mounting an attack on the rancer pirates, the rancer pirates run to dock. I don't know the accounting of gate camps and I think that is getting off the topic. My point is that most gate camps are not PVP, they are kill mail farming. Most KM farmers are not up for PVP, at least the ones I've dealt with.
I support a tool for people who want to PVP to be able to see if there is either a system that is locked down or to see if there is currently some km farmers on the other side of the gate. |
Lord AtTiLAs
Radioactive Poptarts
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Posted - 2009.01.22 21:39:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Lord AtTiLAs on 22/01/2009 21:47:47
Originally by: Tai Paktu
Also, PvP in general is a pretty poor way of making ISK in EvE. There are a lot of other professions that can make ISK more safely and with more success. For example, all of them. Ransoms can generate ISK, but they can be hard to come by. Loot can keep you in ships but won't make you rich unless you get luck. PvP is done for the sake of fun. The argument can definetly be made that gate camps aren't fun. I can also say that some of the most fun small gang fights I've had have resulted from a camp.
Even if we are getting out of the subject a little bit, You are approving my Idea without knowing it. You are right PVP is not a place you can earn ISK, but its a place you can loose a lot without having fun. EVE have one of the best PVP system I ever seen in a MMORPG when you know what you are doing. But when you setup a PVP ship, you don't want to have it blown on an unfair fight and i'm sure you agree with me. No one like this, its just not fun. Which gatecamping fight do you prefer, blowing 5 ships one after the other at interval of 2 minutes or get all 5 at the same moment to get a challenging fight ???. In the overall if less ship is loosed in unfair fight, more PVPer will still have a ship to get good fight when leader call in for reinforcement.
Imagine a world where all fight end up with a "Good fight" in local... 3vs6 or 15vs21 and no more PVPer getting bored by loosing ship on a 1vs20 fight. More people would fly solo and in small group. More late night small gang and solo fight with more overall fun for everyone and every kind of player.
A lot more player would be PVPer if their were less chance to lost a ship in a totally boring and unfair fight. And I said "less chance", because GPS will not negate the purpose of a gate camp, but will remove one of the biggest cause of loosing a ship in a boring way. And this apply to solo, small, medium and fleet fight as well.
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Rathverg
Wildlands Heavy Technologies
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.01.23 18:47:00 -
[41]
rule 1 of eve: there is no such thing as a fair fight or an unfair fight. there is just a fight. deal with it |
203
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.23 18:56:00 -
[42]
Proximity Sensors or Scoutdrones/sensors... Meh.
The Gate itself could display how much Mass is on the other Side in Warpout Vicinity, not actual Ships, Mass.
If it's some Charons parked there, bad Luck. Looks like a massive Blob (false information for the Enemy anyone?).
If it's a Goonfleet patented Frigate Blob... Oops, Gate doesn't show it that obviously - to some extend. The Frig-Blobs I've seen could B***slap anything but a Titan silly. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.24 02:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Lord AtTiLAs
You are approving my Idea without knowing it. You are right PVP is not a place you can earn ISK, but its a place you can loose a lot without having fun. EVE have one of the best PVP system I ever seen in a MMORPG when you know what you are doing. But when you setup a PVP ship, you don't want to have it blown on an unfair fight and i'm sure you agree with me. No one like this, its just not fun. Which gatecamping fight do you prefer, blowing 5 ships one after the other at interval of 2 minutes or get all 5 at the same moment to get a challenging fight ???. In the overall if less ship is loosed in unfair fight, more PVPer will still have a ship to get good fight when leader call in for reinforcement.
I'm more or less neutral on the idea. I don't think it's necessary at all given the mechanics that currently exist for detecting gatecamps (i.e. scouts) or evading them (cov-ops, bloackade runners, cloak + MWD). On the other hand, EvE has a lot of unecessary things in it, so /shrug
I'd also like to note that I haven't been caught in a gatecamp for quite a while (I'm sure I have at one time or another, but I can't remember it). How? I don't solo unscouted with a BS. A lot of the solo work I do is in frigates or cruisers. The times I've been ganked on gates haven't been the result of camps but just random gangs landing on gates or jumping at unfortunate times.
Obviously, I love close fights. A 20 v 20 is far more enjoyable than a 1 v 20. That's not a problem specific to gate camps, however, and more a symptom of EvE itself and I don't see this tool changing that fact much, if at all.
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CaptainSpock211
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Posted - 2009.01.24 04:40:00 -
[44]
In my opinion the info given on your map should be enough of a warning. Part of the fun on flying through low sec is not knowing whats on the other side. As interesting as the GPS idea sounds, I think it would actually hinder some of the risky fun of traveling through lawless space. I think the only way i would accept this kind of module would be if it had some hefty negative side effect for the user.
Lets look at a Warp Core Stabilizer II.
Just using one cuts down your targeting range by 40%, and increases your signature radius by 40%
and all that is for -1 warp scramble strength.
I think if there was a GPS, your signature radius and align time should be drastically increased, but I am still strongly against this idea. |
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