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Totally Mental	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Totally Mental on 23/01/2009 23:17:34 These are getting a bit out of hand during wars. They can't be shot at until they actually repair the person we are shooting at, and even then it doesn't cause them to be aggressed at all. All it does is create a silly timer. This remote repairer can simply jump through a gate or dock in a station and bring a new ship out to shoot at people. Some even remote repair in battleships waiting to be fired upon. Then they simply attack or dock to fit weapons. If anything, remote repairing needs to cause aggression. There needs to be more of a penalty in interfering in a war that doesn't even concern them. The amount of neutral people helping their friends has gotten absurd these days. Empire wars is turning into a fight of who has the most neutral repairers.
Lucia Wilber Minmatar The Steel Vipers	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:27:00 - [2] This is common in lots of MMOs where a type of 'flagging' system exists for PvP. They have that same problem in EverQuest (granted, not a PvP game, but this was a PvP server) and they call it the "Blue Healer Exploit", a name that got passed down from Ultima Online where someone could exploit the criminal flagging system to allow them to heal someone that's a criminal while themselves staying innocent, thus attacking the healer flagged YOU as a criminal. In EQ, you can only attack people that are within five levels of your own level, so if you're 25, you're fighting a 21, but the guy healing him is either below 20 or above 30, you can't even attack the healer. UO eventually fixed the issue by making ANY heal against a criminal flag you as a criminal as well. Sadly, EverQuest never fixed that issue, which is why I quit playing PvP servers there before quitting the game entirely. Ultimately, I agree with you. If you perform any beneficial action on someone, you should instantly be aggressive to everyone that that person is aggressive to.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:41:00 - [3] These threads are dumb. If someone reps a target then you can shoot them. You have the exact same option as they do so its not like its unbalanced your welcome to bring your own remote reppers (in corp or neutral). If you wanna make it so that you dont have to deal with neutrals getting involved stop fighting in empire. Go fight in low sec were you can assume everyones out to kill you.
Totally Mental	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Firkragg These threads are dumb. If someone reps a target then you can shoot them. You have the exact same option as they do so its not like its unbalanced your welcome to bring your own remote reppers (in corp or neutral). If you wanna make it so that you dont have to deal with neutrals getting involved stop fighting in empire. Go fight in low sec were you can assume everyones out to kill you. Umm, once they're shot at they simply switch to another ship, jump into the gate, or dock in the station. Shooting them is stupid because it's just another enemy that'll be shooting you now. Repairing someone who is at war and not in your corp/alliance should have more consequences than making a pointless 15-minute flag timer. These remote repairers can't even be primaried from the start.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:04:00 - [5] Edited by: Nyphur on 24/01/2009 01:06:53 Originally by: Firkragg These threads are dumb. If someone reps a target then you can shoot them. You have the exact same option as they do so its not like its unbalanced your welcome to bring your own remote reppers (in corp or neutral). If you wanna make it so that you dont have to deal with neutrals getting involved stop fighting in empire. Go fight in low sec were you can assume everyones out to kill you. I want to know what ship you're flying that can alpha strike a logistic cruiser or remote rep battleship because one volley is all you'll get. The point of the complaint is that you can't ever kill the logistic ship unless the pilot screws up badly. To start with, you can't call him primary because he doesn't start off flashy and only becomes individually flagged to people who attack the target he's remote repping. Once he does get flagged, you can either attack him or leave him alone. If you leave him alone, he is repairing your enemies and giving them a huge advantage. If you attack him, he can IMMEDIATELY dock or jump and there's nothing you can do about it. He should be given the normal dock and jump timer that's designed to give a minimum time in which to kill him but he isn't and that's the crux of the complaint. What's worse is that YOU are now flagged to HIM and he can go get a battleship and join the fight. And it's made worse if the pilot wasn't flagged to your whole gang to begin with. In FW, only the individual pilots that attack the guy being repaired are able to attack the logistics cruiser. If anyone does attack them, they could find themselves facing off against the logistic pilot in a battleship a few minutes later and their entire gang may be unable to help. So yeah you can shoot them but you will never kill a competant neutral logistics pilot and at best you've made the battle worse for yourself.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:24:00 - [6] I still see no issue. They bring a better selection of ships to the fight and use that advantage to win. You need to decide whether your issue is with neutral people joining in a fight between war targets (which is one of the aspects of fighting in high sec, if you dont like it dont fight in highsec), or if your issue is with logistics not getting agro in which case don't fight on stations. And no you dont need to be able to alpha a logistics there are other approaches (ECM, Neutralisers, damps, among many other options). When a neutral reps a war target they are meant to get flagged to everyone whose at war to that target. If that isn't happening then thats the only issue i can see with the current system. To be honest your whole post just kinda reeks of the "someone is doing something more complicated than just hitting F1, F2, F3, F4 i dont know what to do".
Totally Mental	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:54:00 - [7] Edited by: Totally Mental on 24/01/2009 02:02:48 Edited by: Totally Mental on 24/01/2009 01:55:10 Originally by: Firkragg I still see no issue. They bring a better selection of ships to the fight and use that advantage to win. You need to decide whether your issue is with neutral people joining in a fight between war targets (which is one of the aspects of fighting in high sec, if you dont like it dont fight in highsec), or if your issue is with logistics not getting agro in which case don't fight on stations. And no you dont need to be able to alpha a logistics there are other approaches (ECM, Neutralisers, damps, among many other options). When a neutral reps a war target they are meant to get flagged to everyone whose at war to that target. If that isn't happening then thats the only issue i can see with the current system. To be honest your whole post just kinda reeks of the "someone is doing something more complicated than just hitting F1, F2, F3, F4 i dont know what to do". It has already been explained to you how this is considered an exploit. You refuse to see how lame it really is. Besides, do logistics ships ever fly without ECCM? Sensor dampening is a thing of the past. Again, neuting them would be attacking them, so they can now participate in the fight and attack.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Totally Mental It has already been explained to you how this is considered an exploit. You refuse to see how lame it really is. Besides, do logistics ships ever fly without ECCM? Sensor dampening is a thing of the past. Again, neuting them would be attacking them, so they can now participate in the fight and attack. No i still see no exploit. All i see is somone being better prepared and setup than you and you moaning about it. If you can find some situation were a neutral repper becomes immortal to the enemy while keeping the hostile fleets repped then ill agree its an exploit.
Totally Mental	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Totally Mental on 24/01/2009 02:25:10 Originally by: Firkragg Originally by: Totally Mental It has already been explained to you how this is considered an exploit. You refuse to see how lame it really is. Besides, do logistics ships ever fly without ECCM? Sensor dampening is a thing of the past. Again, neuting them would be attacking them, so they can now participate in the fight and attack. No i still see no exploit. All i see is somone being better prepared and setup than you and you moaning about it. If you can find some situation were a neutral repper becomes immortal to the enemy while keeping the hostile fleets repped then ill agree its an exploit. You don't seem to be reading posts in this thread. Of course, you're in one of the many 0.0 alliances who used the POS reaction exploit for quite a while. But I imagine your alliance was just better prepared for making isk, right?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Firkragg Originally by: Totally Mental It has already been explained to you how this is considered an exploit. You refuse to see how lame it really is. Besides, do logistics ships ever fly without ECCM? Sensor dampening is a thing of the past. Again, neuting them would be attacking them, so they can now participate in the fight and attack. No i still see no exploit. All i see is somone being better prepared and setup than you and you moaning about it. If you can find some situation were a neutral repper becomes immortal to the enemy while keeping the hostile fleets repped then ill agree its an exploit. Sometimes it isn't even a matter of preparation, I've had the same 'neutral' logistics sometimes repping my side, sometimes repping hostile side, with no real way to predict it, and no real way to counter it. If someone interferes in a battle in a outcome-deciding manner, but there is no effective way to predict or counter it it becomes a sign of bad gameplay. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Totally Mental You don't seem to be reading posts in this thread. Of course, you're in one of the many 0.0 alliances who used the POS reaction exploit for quite a while. But I imagine your alliance was just better prepared for making isk, right? Ok then why dont you spell out for me the exact thing you consider an exploit because im still seeing no issue. Also no we had nothing to do with the pos exploit but nice try at diverting from your arguements lack of merit. The pie guy above is right though in high sec it is difficult to judge the enemy composition because of all the neutrals there who you can do nothing about. Its not just reppers its alt scouts watching you, alt haulers moving supplies for the enemy, alt missioners running missions to provide your enemy with isk. But this is just the downside to pvping in empire and if you have an issue with it then the obvious option is to go to low sec were you can do something about it.
Compendium	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:46:00 - [12] These neutrals don't have to be friendly with the war targets either. The same BS happens when a hostile corp notices we're attacking someone near them and helps them simply because the neutrals don't like us. They'll interfere with any fight they can no matter who they are helping. It's lame when eight of them try to bump us off of gates or stations while repairing our war target. We can't attack them since they'll simply open fire on us or dock/jump. Nothing stops them from undocking and doing it again.
Totally Mental	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:52:00 - [13] I already told you how stupid it would be to go into low sec space. Pay attention, maybe? Neutral parties interfering in fights to vastly affect the outcome like this should not be happening without a bigger consequence. Either eliminate assisting someone who is at war or cause the repairer to be unable to dock/gate jump. I said nothing about hauling stuff for someone. Orbiting will prevent bumping.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 03:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Totally Mental I already told you how stupid it would be to go into low sec space. Pay attention, maybe? Neutral parties interfering in fights to vastly affect the outcome like this should not be happening without a bigger consequence. Either eliminate assisting someone who is at war or cause the repairer to be unable to dock/gate jump. I said nothing about hauling stuff for someone. Orbiting will prevent bumping. Your misunderstanding my point about low sec. In low sec you can assume that the neutrals are hostile rather than them being an unknown quantity like highsec. While highsec combat has its advantages it also has its disadvantages to balance them. And there is a consequence for them getting involved, you are able to shoot them. If you are too incompetant to make them suffer the consequences or remove them from the fight by other means then thats your problem more than it being them "exploiting". Instead of complaining about it on the forums you could do it yourself, or be more wary of fighting on stations, or utilise one of the many counters i mentioned in an earlier post.
Basil Yer Gallente Infamous Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.24 07:26:00 - [15] This is a major problem in FW currently. And unless you are in fleet with the pilot that is being attacked by a pilot using a neutral logistic pilot you can not attack the neutral logistic pilot without attacking the pilot he is repping first. It does not matter if he is repping a target you are at war with he does not become aggressed. In the case of low sec if you attack the logistic pilot near a gate or station which alot of pvp happens you get sentry guns to deal with. CCP needs to make it so you can not REP anyone unless they are in your corp/alliance/faction. People that argue this let me ask you why would a logistic pilot stay neutral? Could it be a tad bit safer?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.24 11:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Firkragg Instead of complaining about it on the forums you could do it yourself, or be more wary of fighting on stations, or utilise one of the many counters i mentioned in an earlier post. If you know your PvP, you probably know that many fights in high-sec and low-sec are of the semi-consensual kind. With nearly nobody having any interest in going to belts or other spots away from gates or stations, most fight will be found at these locations. The jump/dock mechanics give all fleets some protection from superior forces, hence the popularity of baiting tactics to get any fight. By far the best 'baiting tactic' is to show up in a roughly equal fleet. If the hostile fleet appears too big, in 90% of the cases there simply won't be a fight. Now, if there are neutrals about, and those neutrals decide the fight outcome without running much risk, both side might indeed take the measures you mentioned. However in such a case, with both sides adding the neutrals ability to interfere to the strength of the hostiles, the 'roughly equal fleet' balance is upset for both sides, and no fight will occur. So the main problem with neutral logistics for me is not that they are not easy to counter, but that they affect the semi-consensual nature of non-0.0 PvP by preventing otherwise nice fights.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 11:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Firkragg I still see no issue. whether your issue is with neutral people joining in a fight between war targets if your issue is with logistics not getting agro in which case don't fight on stations. When a neutral reps a war target they are meant to get flagged to everyone whose at war to that target. If that isn't happening then thats the only issue i can see with the current system. Did you just say you see no issue with it and then go on to state three separate valid issues with it? :p The main issue is that logistics ships can be part of a fight (neutral or otherwise) and can IMMEDIATELY disengage if on a station or gate without penalty. This is a bug. No other ship can participate in PvP and not acquire the 60 second jump and dock timer. That's what the timer is there for, to make ships that engage in PvP committ for a minimum of 60 seconds. The biggest secondary issue would be that the logistics ship is NOT flagged to all of the wartargets the guy he is repairing is part of. I don't know how that works for a normal corp on corp war but in faction warfare each person that wants to be able to attack the logistics cruiser has to first attack the guy he's repairing and then wait for the logistics ship to repair him. Each person has to flag themselves individually. Also, I think you missed the point about the alpha strike. The logistics ship can dock immediately if it gets in trouble. ECM or neuts won't stop that and you will only get one shot to kill him before he docks.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:28:00 - [18] To the pie guy, yes i understand its annoying not knowing if a neutrals going to get involved but as i said this is a quirk of highsec which is balanced against the advantages of high sec combat. Your point about how neutral RR stops fights from starting though is invalid because if the neutral was in fact in the hostile corp you would probabaly not engage anyays. And to the other guy that just posted (sorry i jsut got up and cant be bothered trying to quote everything etc) as i said before i agree that the way flaggin in factional warefare works is dumb. In normal wars if a WT gets repped the repper becomes flagged to all enemies of that WT. But i still dont think RR need to create an agro timer as that means that the only way a gang, thats relying on RR to survive, can disengage is just to sit there not repping and let people die while they wait out a timer. If you can drive a logistics off or nullify its ability to rep then its useless to the enemy so just do that. If it re undocks a minute later fair enough you can just do it again.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Firkragg But i still dont think RR need to create an agro timer as that means that the only way a gang, thats relying on RR to survive, can disengage is just to sit there not repping and let people die while they wait out a timer. If you can drive a logistics off or nullify its ability to rep then its useless to the enemy so just do that. If it re undocks a minute later fair enough you can just do it again. Someone came up with a neat idea about how to resolve this. When you repair someone, you inherit their dock timer if it's larger than your own. So if you remote rep someone with 24 seconds left on their timer, you get a 24 second timer before you can dock. So your RR gang would be able to tank for 60 seconds with nobody in the gang aggroing anyone and they'd then be able to dock. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.24 14:52:00 - [20] Edited by: Merdaneth on 24/01/2009 14:52:13 Originally by: Firkragg To the pie guy, yes i understand its annoying not knowing if a neutrals going to get involved but as i said this is a quirk of highsec which is balanced against the advantages of high sec combat. Your point about how neutral RR stops fights from starting though is invalid because if the neutral was in fact in the hostile corp you would probabaly not engage anyays. It is not invalid precisely because of the essential differences between a remote rep neutral turned hostile and a regular ones: 1. Regular neutrals turned hostile get aggro timers. 2. Regular neutrals turned hostile get Concorded or shot by sentries. 3. Regular neutrals turned hostile get sec status loss. Remote repping 'neutrals' can have a significant affect on the battle outcome just as shooting 'neutrals' would have, but the first interferes with little to no risk to itself, while the latter doesn't. In fact, having neutrals providing logistic support in fleets is almost always superior to having your own people provide logistic support, doubly so in FW. That can't be intended game design.

Lasaveron	Posted - 2009.01.24 15:08:00 - [21] Has CCP ever responded to these neut RR threads as far as an explanation of why they feel it is not an exploit. Seems kinda obvious they don't feel its an issue, but it would be nice to hear from them on why this is ok. Not that EVE has any bearing on real world combat, but if a "neutral" country began supplying assistance to a hostile force, they would be tagged as "hostiles" by the other side. All I can say is that I have been in fleet a few times during war, with equal numbers and capabilities on both sides, and then the neut RR starts and so long to seeing who is the better fleet. It then becomes a case of who can bring the most neuts to a party. :)
Temugen Universal Assembler Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.24 15:21:00 - [22] Edited by: Temugen on 24/01/2009 15:22:33 I love the way the whiners are always on the losing end. If the same ppl posting about this situation had resolved this issue using game mechanics they wouldnt even bother to post. Stop whining and discover a way around it, I have and I dont see why ppl think its a problem. I have been on both sides of the issue and have gotten kills on both sides. The game mechanics work fine. Stop yelling "NERF BAT" every time you dont get your way. Logistics ships are almost already useless as they cant tank worth a flip. Leave them alone or you're gonna send them the way of the AF. Then ccp will have to nerf something else to make them useful again. Its a vicious cycle caused by whiners. In short...get over it. You may not get "all" the kills you think you "deserve". But it all works good enough that fun fights are everywhere for everyone to have. Enjoy! EDIT: Forgot to add that the FW mechanics are broken when it comes to flagging these neuts. It should flag them at least to everyone in the FW Fleet.
Lasaveron Amarr Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.24 16:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Temugen Edited by: Temugen on 24/01/2009 15:22:33 Stop yelling "NERF BAT" every time you dont get your way. Logistics ships are almost already useless as they cant tank worth a flip. Leave them alone or you're gonna send them the way of the AF. Then ccp will have to nerf something else to make them useful again. Its a vicious cycle caused by whiners. Not sure who is swinging the nerf batI think the general consensus is they should become flashy red to everyone in your gang/fleet when they choose to involve themselves in a battle. I don't see that as a "nerf" just treating them like a neutral who starts shooting at your fleetmates. Their actions alter the outcome of a battle just like a neutral BS opening fire on members of your fleet.
Spoon1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:17:00 - [24] Posting in the second thread I have found about this. Yes its lame. Yes its valid. Yes they can be killed. http://www.quafeultra.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=100887
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:58:00 - [25] so much hate here.... there is only one real issue here and that is how logistics are handled in terms of killmails and killrights. so you're flying your happy brutix and you find a lone war target thorax, once engaged a pair of starter corp guardians show up and rep the thorax...sucks to be you. once the guardians rep the thorax they are flagged to you for 15minutes but that really doesn't matter since your brutix has no chance of breaking their spider tank. your brutix converts to a blue flash and a pod, hope you had insurance. the guardians are still flagged to you but odds are there is very little you will be able to do about them during that window except take note of the pilots and let your corpmates know about it, assuming your not a d-bag. like a guy above said it is a hazard of fighting in empire, however, what I would like to see is, given the same situation above, if you did not fire on the guardians you should gain killrights on them. if you did fire on them you are still s.o.l., but given how unlikely it is you will be able to arrange any action against those pilots during the 15minute flagging window it seems fair. also logistics should be on killmails, because i said so.
Spoon1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:13:00 - [26] Its worth noting, charlieb sits in villore in gal space and is in the caldari militia. He has 4 neutral shield rep alts. Thats 5 accounts. Not to say nothing needs to be done, but he was dispatched. And yeah I see it all the time, neutral reppers. It is kinda getting our of hand. But then again so are contract scams...
MukkBarovian	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:05:00 - [27] Sounds like you were outnumbered. Enemy gang+their friendlies. You know what happens when I commit to a fight outnumbered and well tackled out in lowsec/0.0? I have this distressing tendency to die. I wish only my desired targets could shoot at me leaving the rest to rr them instead of shooting me full of holes. Now as far as people being able to rr and then jump the gate when primaried, Id agree thats its fubar. There is no other way to contribute to a fight and then just run away(if youre tackled). To be honest though I think the problem has more to do with fighting on stargates and stations. Your complaint completely disapears if youre talking about an asteroid belt. Too bad serious battles rarely happen there. Having a base structure that will take you out of harm's way as the basis of most battlefields is comprised of fail. The last fight I had in an asteroid belt was the most enjoyable one I can think of in the last couple days. In the meantime I will continue to use gate aggression timers, jump delocks, and the agility buff to be an utter ****3 out in 0.0 with my t1 cruiser.
Firkragg Blue Labs Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:42:00 - [28] Hmmm i wasnt going to post in this thread again as it had gone from being constructive to people just calling eachother idiots. Things i agree with flagging. Im relativly certain that in normal wars if a neutral reps a WT they become flagged to ever WT of that person. If this isnt happening in FW then its dumb since FW is just one big war and this should be fixed. killrights. I definately like the idea of killrights being passed through from the person your fighting to the neutral logistic. I.e your killed by a guy being repped by neutrals you get killrights in the same manner as you would if they were firing on you. Things i disagree with Making remote reps agro This would mess with the balance of RR for alot of other things and really isnt needed. If you cant figure out how to deal with remote reppers then stop sucking at the game tbh its not that hard. banning people from interfering with fights between war targets Seriously to anyone who suggested this, what are you smoking? How about instead we ban all pvp except in special arenas so that things can be all regulated and you can spend hours trying to grind your epic armor.... Anyways these are just my thoughts, im sure many people will disagree. Personally though i hope people see that making it easier for people to find their own solutions to a situation (i.e finding a good counter, or just good old blobbage) is much better than just nerfing something to hell to make the game easier for people who dont want to put effort or planning into it.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.26 07:01:00 - [29] Empire wars are pointless anyway bcos of alts. A mild annoyance for the ones in reciving end as they use NPC corp alts to haul their crap instead of mains in target corp or use as a 'griefing tool' against against young (who do not know how to circumenvent them with alts) or utterly carebear (it can actually somewhat disrupt mining corporations a bit). Best cource of action ? Ignore them, as station huggers with NPC corp logisticks support are usually just camping the Jita area looking for industrials to gank. Use alt to haul your crap, it takes what approx 1 hour to do bestower alt in NPC corp ? And any corporation with some organization has already NPC corp freighters for the wars. The corp I'm in has like 5 of those. The FIX ? It's easy, let's get rid of alts. As alts allow you to circumenvent the consuqences of your actions.
Spoon1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Firkragg Im relativly certain that in normal wars if a neutral reps a WT they become flagged to ever WT of that person. If this isnt happening in FW then its dumb since FW is just one big war and this should be fixed. Bingo.



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