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Solving the Falcon "problem" Solution inside

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Bosco Minmatar Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:46:00 - [1] Other games provide a system called "diminishing returns." Meaning, the more you apply a strategy, the more that strategy weakens or becomes less effective. An example would be the Ice Shock spell from world of warcraft. This spell has a "snare" affect on its target and slows the target's movement. The more you try to apply this spell in a certain timeframe, the less effective it becomes. This prevents a perma-state of being snared. My suggestion is simply this: Place timers on the jammers. The longer the person is repeat jammed, the less effective it becomes and the less chance the jammer has of jamming until a timer is reset on that target when jammers become 100% effective again. I believe this would end stalemates, keep falconeers and others cycling targets, and giving folks a chance to have some fast and furious fights. Discuss.
5yndr0m3 Caldari Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.01.25 10:56:00 - [2] Originally by: Bosco Other games provide a system called "diminishing returns." Meaning, the more you apply a strategy, the more that strategy weakens or becomes less effective. An example would be the Ice Shock spell from world of warcraft. This spell has a "snare" affect on its target and slows the target's movement. The more you try to apply this spell in a certain timeframe, the less effective it becomes. This prevents a perma-state of being snared. My suggestion is simply this: Place timers on the jammers. The longer the person is repeat jammed, the less effective it becomes and the less chance the jammer has of jamming until a timer is reset on that target when jammers become 100% effective again. I believe this would end stalemates, keep falconeers and others cycling targets, and giving folks a chance to have some fast and furious fights. Discuss. eccm.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Bosco An example would be the Ice Shock spell from world of warcraft. I don't normally say this, but: It has to be a flamebait, surely?
Unknown Killer	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:03:00 - [4] Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW.
Kaahles n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:05:00 - [5] Use ECCM. If it isn't enough get some information warfare links to boost your sensor strength. Problem solved. ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. Carrier with 2x ECCM = 270+ sensor strength, and it still gets jammed. Go back to WoW. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. okay, say a crusader or claw fits eccm for a fleet fight. how does it tackle the falcon?
Silent Ceremony	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:13:00 - [8] Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. okay, say a crusader or claw fits eccm for a fleet fight. how does it tackle the falcon? why would you use a crusader when you can use a Crow which has much higher sensor strength? this Crow then tackles the falcon using a warp disruptor module
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:28:00 - [9] There is no Falcon "problem". Just adapt. Curiously, there are so much whines against Falcon since the release of QR... So since the nerf of missiles. I guess the real problem is that CCP nerfed missiles so much than now a good amount of Caldari players moved to Falcons because it is all we have.
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:30:00 - [10] stopped reading at "world of"

Franga Gristle Industries	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. Carrier with 2x ECCM = 270+ sensor strength, and it still gets jammed. Go back to WoW. Quoting this because I'm down with it. Real issue with ECM is the fact it's chance based.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:36:00 - [12] Supported. Make ECM work 100% of the time on initial activation, and with a halflife of one minute. So at one minute, each module has 50% chance of jamming. Thus a falcon can take out 5-6 targets for the first minute of the fight, 2-3 the second, etc. Very balanced, yes? Me be smart!
Bosco Minmatar Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:59:00 - [13] I only cited WoW because it was the first game that came to mind. Essentially, many MMO's use diminishing returns to balance crowd control spells, abilities, etc. Let's face it: Jamming ships is a form of crowd control. Also, applying diminishing returns could fit into the game world quite easily. Lets take the standard "nerf falcons" response from people that fly falcons. ECCM. Well ECCMs dont always work.. infact they seem to be over come quite quickly. Wouldn't make sense that the ECCM or defence mechanism's computer would be constantly modulating it's targeting and sensor frequencys to avoid being jammed? Maybe the dimishing return should be only applied when you have such a defensive module equipped. Less of a chance to be jammed the more... you are jammed. This would also apply to any ship not equipped with jam defence. The ships normal computers should be activly trying to compensate for the jam, cycling frequencies etc to overcome it. Once it does, and the jam is broken (i.e. the diminishing returns have taken effect) that ship is free from jams from that paticular ship that is jamming it. The falcon pilot or whatever must stop his jam and wait a set periord for his own jammers to reset and modulate frequencies to begin jamming that same target again. The cycle starts over. Thoughts?
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.25 12:19:00 - [14] this is not WoW/WAR/LoTRO/whatevergameyoumightthinkoff THIS IS SPART.... ohwai.. THIS IS EVE, GET OVER IT Cheers, Faros YES I am a CareBear YES I also post on C&P PROOF or STFU
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:13:00 - [15] Having diminishing returns affecting mechanics in EVE leads only to disaster for the game, because should CCP implement these changes because of people's current popular whine trend, it won't take long before you got people drumming for diminishing returns affecting warp scrambling, webifiers, and probably cyno jammers as well. And (why not) mining while we are at it because Chribba's Veldnaught is so unfair and overpowered! OMGWTFQQ Do I think the current mechanics needs a look? Maybe, but I'll leave that decision to CCP to make instead of some asinine suggestion made by someone random tool that thinks he had a solution because he thought of World of Warcraft.
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Digital Solaris Having diminishing returns affecting mechanics in EVE leads only to disaster for the game, because should CCP implement these changes because of people's current popular whine trend, it won't take long before you got people drumming for diminishing returns affecting warp scrambling, webifiers, and probably cyno jammers as well. And (why not) mining while we are at it because Chribba's Veldnaught is so unfair and overpowered! OMGWTFQQ Do I think the current mechanics needs a look? Maybe, but I'll leave that decision to CCP to make instead of some asinine suggestion made by some random tool that thinks he had a solution because he thought of World of Warcraft.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Sky Marshal Curiously, there are so much whines against Falcon since the release of QR... So since the nerf of missiles. Here's a little hint for you: it was not the missile "nerf" that made the falcon considerably stronger.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. Carrier with 2x ECCM = 270+ sensor strength, and it still gets jammed. Go back to WoW. A carrier does not get jammed often with that sort of str, and if it was totally immune to being jammed cos of eccm then eccm would need fixing.
Hatt0ri Hanz0	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Digital Solaris Having diminishing returns affecting mechanics in EVE leads only to disaster for the game, because should CCP implement these changes because of people's current popular whine trend, it won't take long before you got people drumming for diminishing returns affecting warp scrambling, webifiers, and probably cyno jammers as well. And (why not) mining while we are at it because Chribba's Veldnaught is so unfair and overpowered! OMGWTFQQ Do I think the current mechanics needs a look? Maybe, but I'll leave that decision to CCP to make instead of some asinine suggestion made by someone random tool that thinks he had a solution because he thought of World of Warcraft. moron. I actually agree with the op. Falcons need a change, and it aint eccm, unless its to make them actually stronger. eccm only works if the falcon has umpteen ships he's trying to jam. I've lost more then one ship, some even large ships, to an assault frigate and a falcon. One or even two eccms would not have helped.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Bosco I only cited WoW because it was the first game that came to mind. Essentially, many MMO's use diminishing returns to balance crowd control spells, abilities, etc. Let's face it: Jamming ships is a form of crowd control. Also, applying diminishing returns could fit into the game world quite easily. EVE has diminishing returns it is called stacking and ECM is chance based and does not stack with itself. 4 jammers with a 50% chance to jam each do not have a 200% chance to jam, they do actually get a natural diminishing return.

Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:56:00 - [21] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 25/01/2009 13:56:56 Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Bosco I only cited WoW because it was the first game that came to mind. Essentially, many MMO's use diminishing returns to balance crowd control spells, abilities, etc. Let's face it: Jamming ships is a form of crowd control. Also, applying diminishing returns could fit into the game world quite easily. EVE has diminishing returns it is called stacking and ECM is chance based and does not stack with itself. 4 jammers with a 50% chance to jam each do not have a 200% chance to jam, they do actually get a natural diminishing return. No they don't. Every jammer you try to put on the target is exactly as effective as the first in that it has the same chance of jamming. If I want to nerf someone's range into oblivion with a TD, and I'm at 10km, and they've got 250km range, each additional TD is less effective than the one before it. In contrast, if I want to jam the ship into oblivion, all I need to do is throw more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more jammers at it, and if I can devote enough jammers to it, it'll get jammed, and stay jammed. Incidentally, 5x max skilled TDs won't get a target to below 20km optimal if it's got 250km range; neat.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Unknown Killer Use ECCM or best would be go back to WOW. Carrier with 2x ECCM = 270+ sensor strength, and it still gets jammed. Go back to WoW. Failure to understand that chance based means that unlikely things happen. Go back to maths class.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Terianna Eri Edited by: Terianna Eri on 25/01/2009 13:56:56 Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Bosco I only cited WoW because it was the first game that came to mind. Essentially, many MMO's use diminishing returns to balance crowd control spells, abilities, etc. Let's face it: Jamming ships is a form of crowd control. Also, applying diminishing returns could fit into the game world quite easily. EVE has diminishing returns it is called stacking and ECM is chance based and does not stack with itself. 4 jammers with a 50% chance to jam each do not have a 200% chance to jam, they do actually get a natural diminishing return. No they don't. Every jammer you try to put on the target is exactly as effective as the first in that it has the same chance of jamming. If I want to nerf someone's range into oblivion with a TD, and I'm at 10km, and they've got 250km range, each additional TD is less effective than the one before it. In contrast, if I want to jam the ship into oblivion, all I need to do is throw more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more jammers at it, and if I can devote enough jammers to it, it'll get jammed, and stay jammed. Incidentally, 5x max skilled TDs won't get a target to below 20km optimal if it's got 250km range; neat. Who cares that they can fire 20Km if you're at 24Km?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Terianna Eri [ Originally by: lecrotta EVE has diminishing returns it is called stacking and ECM is chance based and does not stack with itself. 4 jammers with a 50% chance to jam each do not have a 200% chance to jam, they do actually get a natural diminishing return. No they don't. Every jammer you try to put on the target is exactly as effective as the first in that it has the same chance of jamming. Your right but ECM does not have a fully cumulative effect (or stacking effect if you prefer), a ECM jammer that fails does not take away x amount of sig str from the target making it easier for the next jammer to fail.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:07:00 - [25] Originally by: P'uck Here's a little hint for you: it was not the missile "nerf" that made the falcon considerably stronger. Here's a little hint for you: read a post entirely before create a response who is out of context So read a new time my post. In my case, I will move to a ship with guns or a Falcon, as the missile nerf make my Cerberus less efficient.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 25/01/2009 14:13:30 Originally by: Bosco Other games provide a system called "diminishing returns." Meaning, the more you apply a strategy, the more that strategy weakens or becomes less effective. An example would be the Ice Shock spell from world of warcraft. This spell has a "snare" affect on its target and slows the target's movement. The more you try to apply this spell in a certain timeframe, the less effective it becomes. This prevents a perma-state of being snared. My suggestion is simply this: Place timers on the jammers. The longer the person is repeat jammed, the less effective it becomes and the less chance the jammer has of jamming until a timer is reset on that target when jammers become 100% effective again. I believe this would end stalemates, keep falconeers and others cycling targets, and giving folks a chance to have some fast and furious fights. Discuss. Bad idea. If anything the systems jamming would become more effective with time, no less. This may work in a happy magic world of faries and such, but makes no sense in EVE.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:15:00 - [27] Boost Rook, nerf Falcon. Problem solved.
Monticore D'Muertos Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.25 14:41:00 - [28] these are the same people that whined for the speed nerf and at that time i told them nerf speed all you want but just guess what ship all those rapier pilots are going to fly now and its not gonna any more fun than all those rapiers. so guess which ships gets more flying time my falcon or rapier. monti
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.25 16:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Boost Rook, nerf Falcon. Problem solved. I could almost endorse this. That way, I could stop imagining the fear in the hearts of my enemies as I decloak beyond their immediate reach and can instead imagine their even greater fear when an even more powerful ECM boat is simply on scan.
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.01.25 16:27:00 - [30] I say bring back the old way ECM worked. You know when someone could fit the multi spectrms and perma jam any 6 ships with a scorpion. That was fun.



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