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Solving the Falcon "problem" Solution inside

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Rordan D'Kherr	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:50:00 - [61] I'm curious how the diminishing return thingy would take effect to weapons. I mean, they disable a player to do anything (by destroying one's ship).
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:22:00 - [62] Quote: I think OP is on the right track, however I just don't think that it'd be enough unless the diminishing effect on the jamming strength is very strong. I'd like to instead see it combined with a jamming strength penalty for jamming multiple targets, this would make it impossible for a powerful ECM boat to keep a jam on multiple targets for maybe more than one cycle (which is plenty enough for escape in most situations) and the ECM boat would have to swap targets medium sized engagements, making no ship permanently shut down. Multiple snipers would also quickly force away Falcons, giving them a counter. In other words you wanna make ECM useless. I`m not sure you have been around long enough but ECM has already been through multiple changes, mostly nerfs. Ontop of having chance based activation you want them to loose effectiveness over time during the fight. Quote: this would make it impossible for a powerful ECM boat to keep a jam on multiple targets for maybe more than one cycle (which is plenty enough for escape in most situations) Why would I fly a ECM boat if all I wanna do is escape with it? And quite a few fights your engagement depends on the falcons ability to take a certain ship out of the fight, until the gang can deal with it. If the target suddenly appears to have ECCM fitted, the fight can suddenly take a very different turn. And ECCM works, I have lost count on how many times people whine about eccm, when they actually forgot to either turn it on or just fitted the wrong type. One more thing. Quote: Other games provide a system called "diminishing returns." Meaning, the more you apply a strategy, the more that strategy weakens or becomes less effective. Well, this is not another game, this is eve. And you already have this mechanic by default. But it's up to the players to do it. They adapt to the world around them. If they fight people who use ECM alot, Fit ECCM and use ganglink and tactics to counter the ECM... Yeah, I can see that the falcon have made the rook obsolete, but no need to absolutely trash the whole gamemechanic. Is the scorp overpowered? Is the widow overpowered? Kitsune? Blackbird?
Psiri	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:59:00 - [63] Edited by: Psiri on 26/01/2009 12:59:46 Originally by: TZeer In other words you wanna make ECM useless. I`m not sure you have been around long enough but ECM has already been through multiple changes, mostly nerfs. Ontop of having chance based activation you want them to loose effectiveness over time during the fight. Been around since 2003, atm I think the current ECM mechanic is the worst rendition of it we've ever seen. My suggestion would make it loose effectiveness over the fight on the jammed targets, ie if you're only jamming 1-2 people then yes you would be out of things to jam after not very long, how long exactly would depend on wether you jammed the targets simultaneously, their sensor strength and wether or not they've fitted ECM. ECM wouldn't be useless, an ECM boat would be able to keep at least one big hostile ship down at any given moment in most situations and it'd still be the best rescue-ship ever. The ship is virtually a no-risk boat and the rewards for flying it should be in line with that. I think that alot of people would appriciate a non-chance based system aswell as it'd leave more in control of the pilot himself, rather than just dumb luck. I don't see why one player should be able to neutralize 2-3 others or more, at near zer risk to his ship. Sure an ECM boat won't do much if any damage at all, then again the ability of breaking locks has its certain advantages. Quote: Why would I fly a ECM boat if all I wanna do is escape with it? You don't have to, the ability to render any single ship useless for 60-80 seconds (before then jamming multiple targets pherhaps, as the fight would probably be almost over anyway) can equate to a 1000EHP/sec remote rep or free people from other forms of EW like tracking disruption or sensor dampening. Falcons would still carry their weight in a fight except maybe a frigate battle or sniper heavy engagement, and frankly a Falcon shouldn't be in either of those places. Quote: And quite a few fights your engagement depends on the falcons ability to take a certain ship out of the fight, until the gang can deal with it. If the target suddenly appears to have ECCM fitted, the fight can suddenly take a very different turn. I think way too many people are dismissing ECCM as rubbish, whilst it can be really useful on some ships. In any case, a Falcon would still be able to do the same thing after my proposed changes, it's just that eventually the jam would break and the Falcon would need to jam something else. But sure, you would have a time limit of sorts but I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just adds pressure on you aswell which is fun. Currently there's absolutely nothing fun about ECM.
Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:00:00 - [64] I cleanly suggest making ECCM modules offensive. When the jamming ship attempts to use ECM on an ECCM-equipped vessel it creates a feedback loop which destroys the jamming ship and 17 random members of their corporation, instantly. To maintain balance, in the event of such a feedback effect the ECCM-equipped vessel would glow brightly and therefore become a more appealing target for any remaining enemies. I believe this is the high-stakes ECM action we've always wanted.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Leiara Knight I cleanly suggest making ECCM modules offensive. When the jamming ship attempts to use ECM on an ECCM-equipped vessel it creates a feedback loop which destroys the jamming ship and 17 random members of their corporation, instantly. Haha, nice. Or just make ECM module instantly ban the account of its user and give any1 who have whined about ECM 1 bil extra cash!
jimfix	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:39:00 - [66] Or just be jamming good with weird and gilly And the spiders from mars........
Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:17:00 - [67] You are quite right, and they can be licked by smiling.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:33:00 - [68] REAL solution? Drop the range bonus and lower the locking range. Dropping the range bonus makes it more dangerous for the Falcon pilot, which in turn means he has to put more effort into survival, which then means he'll (have to) be less effective. The shorter range makes him easier to catch for the opponents, he can be sensor damped and fast ships can more easily overwhelm it. He just lost his 98% safety and can be countered. It's also more inline with the Amarr Recons where the cloaky one doesn't get range bonuses. Leave the range bonus and long locking range on the Rook, that gives it a purpose and then you actually have to make choices; cloak or range. And yes, I have a Falcon alt.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Tzar'rim And yes, I have a Falcon alt. Killer argument, haha. So you are repeating ideas. What compensation should the Falcon get if it loses his tank?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:34:00 - [70] Originally by: Major Celine Originally by: Tzar'rim And yes, I have a Falcon alt. Killer argument, haha. So you are repeating ideas. What compensation should the Falcon get if it loses his tank? What compensation did the Arazu get for nerfed-to-hell damps? Or the Rapier for nerfed-to-hell webs?

Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:41:00 - [71] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus What compensation did the Arazu get for nerfed-to-hell damps? Or the Rapier for nerfed-to-hell webs? Hmm, Rapier for sure is not a long range ship without any tank abilities. Not sure about the Arazu.
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:43:00 - [72] Quote: Drop the range bonus and lower the locking range. +20% ECM falloff per level instead of +20% ECM optimal imho. Still allows them to jam from 200+ km but at low effectiveness which is more in line with the insignificant risk they're taking.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:52:00 - [73] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus What compensation did the Arazu get for nerfed-to-hell damps? Or the Rapier for nerfed-to-hell webs? None but then just cos they need a range boost is no reason to nerf ecm ships, in fact i bet most ppl would support a buff to the other ewar ships i know i would.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Major Celine Hmm, Rapier for sure is not a long range ship without any tank abilities. If you want to get some kind of tank on a Rapier, you have to give up some of your E-War. Just like you'd need to do on a Falcon. Originally by: Major Celine Not sure about the Arazu. Same deal, only worse because the 'Zu doesn't have as many mids as the Falcon, nor good base resists like the Rapier.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:59:00 - [75] Originally by: Murina None but then just cos they need a range boost is no reason to nerf ecm ships, in fact i bet most ppl would support a buff to the other ewar ships i know i would. They don't need a range boost, the Falcon just needs to get its range nerfed. I, too, have a Falcon alt, you know. BTW, for those saying that the abundance of Falcons around is because of the missile nerf: that only part of the answer. The other reason is that Falcons were balanced when they had to watch out for 9km/s Vagas and inties hunting them. Now their list of natural enemies has been reduced to ECCM sniper BS.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [76] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus If you want to get some kind of tank on a Rapier, you have to give up some of your E-War. Just like you'd need to do on a Falcon. Hmm, I do not need any slots as I can speed up my Rapier. Speed is Minmatars friend, you know? Even after the speed nerf which obviously the majority of players wanted.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:08:00 - [77] Originally by: Major Celine Originally by: Deschenus Maximus If you want to get some kind of tank on a Rapier, you have to give up some of your E-War. Just like you'd need to do on a Falcon. Hmm, I do not need any slots as I can speed up my Rapier. Speed is Minmatars friend, you know? Even after the speed nerf which obviously the majority of players wanted. 2.2 km/s is painfully slow, and that's the fastest you'll go without fancy implants. The "standard" Rapier fit has 2 LSE II, because speedtanking is dead except in very rare cases.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:10:00 - [78] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2009 22:14:53 Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/01/2009 22:11:30 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus What compensation did the Arazu get for nerfed-to-hell damps? Bonused MWD-disabling scramblers. Quote: Or the Rapier for nerfed-to-hell webs? TPs that are remotely useful now. Quote: The "standard" Rapier fit has 2 LSE II, because speedtanking is dead except in very rare cases. Rubbish. Rapiers always fit dual LSE tank, unless flown by noobs.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:13:00 - [79] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Murina None but then just cos they need a range boost is no reason to nerf ecm ships, in fact i bet most ppl would support a buff to the other ewar ships i know i would. They don't need a range boost, the Falcon just needs to get its range nerfed. So you wanna reduce range and make ecm 100% jam guaranteed like the effects of the other systems?. It will certainly kill falcons as every ship will have ecm fitted in their mids.
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:20:00 - [80] In eve it is called stacking penalty... and ECCM is underpowered... somehow falcons get past 40 sensor strength, perhaps ECM/ECCM curve needs to be more steep. ECCM must be more effective with every point gained, change the equation and this will fix the game.

Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:21:00 - [81] Originally by: Omara Otawan Bonused MWD-disabling scramblers. Good point. Originally by: Omara Otawan TPs that are remotely useful now. TPs were always useful, they are just more so now that missiles have been nerfed. But that is **ing weak compensation for having webs take such a massive hit. Originally by:** Omara Otawan Rubbish. Rapiers always fit dual LSE tank, unless flown by noobs. I never needed dual LSE on my 5 km/s Rapier. So no, dual LSE wasn't standard.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:23:00 - [82] Originally by: lecrotta So you wanna reduce range and make ecm 100% jam guaranteed like the effects of the other systems?. No. Just leave it as is. ECM will still be by far the most powerful EW, but at least the Falcons will have to be more careful in fights.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:25:00 - [83] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: lecrotta So you wanna reduce range and make ecm 100% jam guaranteed like the effects of the other systems?. No. Just leave it as is. ECM will still be by far the most powerful EW, but at least the Falcons will have to be more careful in fights. It will be the worst by far as the others are not chance based and as such can be predicted at close range.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:29:00 - [84] Originally by: lecrotta It will be the worst by far as the others are not chance based and as such can be predicted at close range. Don't be silly. People used Falcons aplenty back when you could reach them in 5 seconds in an inty, people will still used them now.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:45:00 - [85] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/01/2009 22:45:53 I'm standing by my ideas, drop the huge range on the Falcon, both for jamming range as locking range. Thus making it more susceptable to damage, other forms of EW and inties. Have it actually THINK about wether it's smart to uncloak and do it's job or not. Same thing for the blackbird really. It'll still be as powerful but now it's range will be some 60-80km. If you don't like the shorter range there's the Rook, and swap the cloak for range. Right now it's silly since there's no reason to take a Rook over a Falcon unless you have grandeurs of doing dps. Right now a cloaker can uncloak at 180km and be AS effective as a Rook in it's purpose. Thing is ofcourse that people can not debate anything that might jeopardise their advantage, hence the rabid replies here. As stated, I have a Falcon alt and he's used a LOT (gets on more km's than me damnit) but that doesn't stop me from looking at it unbiased. The obvious replyers in this thread frantically try to hold the status quo, and the more their try their best, the more laughable it becomes.
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:47:00 - [86] best way to scare off a falcon is a stealth bomber which uncloaks after falcon's appearance and fires one volley before falcon can get a lock and spare a jammer. Another possible way is a crow with F.o.F. standard missiles, not enough to kill a falcon, but the longer it tries to jam the crow the more missiles are going to hit. If falcon warps, it's a win, if he drops jam he is scrammed. A very viable way is fast moving smart bombing ship with a set of bookmarks, doesn't take much to fend falcon off and can work without lock. A perhaps the simplest way -> another falcon, play the cards right. And also a swarm of interceptors will always succeed.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:50:00 - [87] Originally by: Opertone best way to scare off a falcon is a stealth bomber which uncloaks after falcon's appearance and fires one volley before falcon can get a lock and spare a jammer. Another possible way is a crow with F.o.F. standard missiles, not enough to kill a falcon, but the longer it tries to jam the crow the more missiles are going to hit. If falcon warps, it's a win, if he drops jam he is scrammed. A very viable way is fast moving smart bombing ship with a set of bookmarks, doesn't take much to fend falcon off and can work without lock. A perhaps the simplest way -> another falcon, play the cards right. And also a swarm of interceptors will always succeed. A lot of those tactics work in theory but not in practise, there is a VERY easy counter to a Falcon; get a Rokh/Apoc, sniperfit with ECCM coming out of it's ears. I'm sure people who have a fleet can spare 1-2 BS for anti ECM support.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:04:00 - [88] Edited by: lecrotta on 26/01/2009 23:13:21 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: lecrotta It will be the worst by far as the others are not chance based and as such can be predicted at close range. Don't be silly. People used Falcons aplenty back when you could reach them in 5 seconds in an inty, people will still used them now. Like ppl still fly nano BS?. Reaching them and just being able to lock and kill them in a single volley are totally different and you know it. It is a bad idea.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:19:00 - [89] Originally by: lecrotta Like ppl still fly nano BS?. Reaching them and just being able to lock and kill them in a single volley are totally different and you know it. It is a bad idea. Well, it's that or losing the strength bonus. Your pick.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:21:00 - [90] Edited by: lecrotta on 26/01/2009 23:23:15 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: lecrotta Like ppl still fly nano BS?. Reaching them and just being able to lock and kill them in a single volley are totally different and you know it. It is a bad idea. Well, it's that or losing the strength bonus. Your pick. Erm no there is no pick cos their is no nerf coming, as falcons are fine and close range gank/tank ( proly in amarr BS) online is not fun or particularly interesting. So they are not just fine they are essential to the game.



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