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Waseem
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:35:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Waseem on 26/01/2009 03:37:40
Only way I could see that working would be to require the T2 insurance payment to be sent to them as part of the policy, and the requirement would be to have X level of insurance on the ship in order to make the policy valid. Have the person send the payout to a specified corporate wallet and make it a prerequisite to getting the other payout.
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Nath Beta
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:38:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Nath Beta on 26/01/2009 03:38:55
 Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Nath Beta
Yes, that is reasonable... for a tech 1 ship. We have no intentions of competing with in-game insurance. We will be insuring tech 2 ships, implants, and POSes. You pretty much described why we won't be insuring things that in-game insurance covers.
When was the last time a T1 ship have a base price of 30mil and costs 100mil market value. That is a T2 ship I'm talking about here.
This is not an issue to complete with in-game, this is an issue to how people can use your insurance model to benifit themselves.
Thanks for pointing this out. I'll talk over it with the directors. If you're right, we might be restricted to only insuring pods and player owned stations. Even if we have to do that, the market has those exposures, and will need insurance for them. I hope I can get you guys behind me on at least that.
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Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:40:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:43:49
Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:40:09
We are currently looking for a team of traders to handle company investments. If you are interested, please say so in this thread, or EVEmail me. also, make sure to include your qualification
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Waseem
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:42:00 -
[34]
So your investors are also employees? Not sure why investors need qualifications?
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:44:00 -
[35]
Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 03:45:17
I didn't realise you were keeping 60% of the shares too.
So if you are selling 30B in shares, that is 40% of the float.
That means the business is worth 75B.
Why would an insurance company be worth 75B ISK?
That would be the biggest of the newer IPO's (since 1.1.08).
Why do you get 60% of the shares for free?
When most other players launch IPO's they inject capital into the project equalling their share or take a management fee?
To summarise:
1. You are opening a 75B ISK insurance business
2. You don't know what sort of returns the investors will get
3. They could lose money
4. Your business plan isn't worked out completely
5. The investors take all the risk, and you just provide know how.
The investors take all the risk (ISK), you take most of the profits.
Why should I invest again?
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Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Waseem
So your investors are also employees? Not sure why investors need qualifications?
sorry for the misunderstanding, I mean a team of traders to handle company investments, not investors in the company. I have changed my post to reflect that.
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Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:51:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:54:49
Originally by: cosmoray
Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 03:45:17
I didn't realize you were keeping 60% of the shares too.
So if you are selling 30B in shares, that is 40% of the float.
That means the business is worth 75B.
Why would an insurance company be worth 75B ISK?
That would be the biggest of the newer IPO's (since 1.1.08).
Why do you get 60% of the shares for free?
When most other players launch IPO's they inject capital into the project equalling their share or take a management fee?
To summarise:
1. You are opening a 75B ISK insurance business
2. You don't know what sort of returns the investors will get
3. They could lose money
4. Your business plan isn't worked out completely
5. The investors take all the risk, and you just provide know how.
The investors take all the risk (ISK), you take most of the profits.
Why should I invest again?
60% of the functional profit, not shares. Think of it as our fixed salary. Also, you can never know a percentage of profits for any stock. you have to base it off of if you believe you will make ISK off of it, not that somebody tells you that you will get X amount of ISK back... also, there is always a chance of risk. Everything has risk. Saying otherwise is to lie. However, we have worked to mitigate risk in every way possible, if you can help us in this area, please do.
you should invest because this is a great idea, with a good chance of success. You should invest cause we can't run away with all your well invested ISK, no matter what. This is why you should invest. If you don't feel it is a safe investment, don't invest. However, I think we can all agree that taking a leap of faith for a few honest guys can be very profitable. Who knows, maybe you could help our company make profit.
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nath Beta
Thanks for pointing this out. I'll talk over it with the directors. If you're right, we might be restricted to only insuring pods and player owned stations. Even if we have to do that, the market has those exposures, and will need insurance for them. I hope I can get you guys behind me on at least that.
In the years I've been watching, read, thinking about Insurance in EVE there is 1001 things you need to consider. This is why no one has done it before. Ship insurance is exploitable in most situations. If you look back though the history of threads in this forum every so often someone comes on thinking they have the solution.
It's almost ALWAYS T2 ships because it's lacking in EVE. However that's the point.. it's lacking, it's not that it's not existent, it's the fact it's not as good as T1 insurance.
Insuring a POS is nice because you're doing something no one else not even CCP does. Implants/POD insurance, sure why not. While you're at it, you may want to spice up the POD insurance with "Paid for clone" as in, according to you SP you need x amount of SP covered which costs Y amount. Just as tip to make it more attractive.
Ships are done, ships are covered by CCP and do exactly what insurance should do, lower the margin of loss. And I remind you CCP does this instantly, you'll never compete with CCP's instant gratification.
Amarr for Life |
Nath Beta
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:52:00 -
[39]
Cosmoray, investors will be buying bonds, not shares. Your isk will be held by Chribba, and paid back in 6 months. There will be 30B in capital. 25B of it will be held by Chribba, and 5B will be liquid, and the three directors will be in control of it. I'm changing the OP now to clarify this.
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Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:58:00 -
[40]
SencneS, what about cap ships? Ships may not become our main thing, but I think we should give them a try. Also, such things as Mods, cargo ect could be insured eventually. Most everything can be insured if you think about it. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Nath Beta
Cosmoray, investors will be buying bonds, not shares. Your isk will be held by Chribba, and paid back in 6 months. There will be 30B in capital. 25B of it will be held by Chribba, and 5B will be liquid, and the three directors will be in control of it. I'm changing the OP now to clarify this.
No we are not buying bonds.
BONDS PAY A FIXED INTEREST RATE PER MONTH, AND AT THE END OF THE BOND LIFE THEY ARE REPURCHASED AT FACE VALUE
You are offering us a piece of the business (40%) with an unknown amount of return. |
SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Aluin Chaput
SencneS, what about cap ships? Ships may not become our main thing, but I think we should give them a try. Also, such things as Mods, cargo ect could be insured eventually. Most everything can be insured if you think about it.
Cap ships.. almost the same thing - ALMOST..
There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for.
Four Motherhships
Four Titans
Those are target audience, which is yet another reason why no one does ship insurance :)
A mum costs what 30b (Wild stab in the dark)
Titan costs 80b (Again wild stab in the dark)
Although these two class ships can never get In-game insurance they do get default insurance. It comes down to how close of a margin are the ships to market cost.
I happen to know all capitals are above base cost but only by a small margin, a very small margin. So third party insurance is exploitable on everything apart from Motherships and Titans. The issue there is, the premiums cost a fortune and you'll be hurting the first one that gets claimed on.
Also you'll be dealing with the "Fleet" effect - Interesting little juicy bit of info. Before Capitals go on major fleet objectives they check the insurance. Now if you go with third party insurance you'll have a massive influx of policies, sounds sweet until you see the death toll. Major alliances will say "We're going to attack a POS.." you'll get some nice policy purchases but they will never renew them until they are called on again.
Their risk factor is HUGE! and the mom and titans cost multiple of tens of billions. Even if you had a awesome working model you'd need some MAJOR backing for it to work.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:17:00 -
[43]
I strongly suggest that you go away and work on your business plan.
Work out:
1. Who your customers are going to be
2. What the premiums are
3. A reasonable size business that doesn't need to be worth 75B
4. Start it off small to see if model works 2-3B ISk
5. If it works get a capital float of about 5-10B ISK, and limit your potential liabilities to that maximum amount
5. Work out an effective share/owner structure
6. Get some help with the business plan
Come back and relaunch when you are REALLY ready.
At the moment this is a mess, and I don't see anyone stumping up ISK to invest.
A good guide to IPO's is that you don't have any takers on the first page, and all you get is questions then the IPO is not getting off the ground in its current form.
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:17:00 -
[44]
Word of advice guys.. Come up with one or the other first.
Either come up with a great insurance model or an IPO model.
Trying to work out whats best for insurance at the same time working out an IPO is a bad idea.
The IPO part alone is it's own beast. Work on one thing at a time, make that thing the way the insurance will work, then work on the IPO. It'll help sell the IPO faster if you know what you're working with and what will be needed etc.
Amarr for Life |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:20:00 -
[45]
Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots)
...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise. |
SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots)
...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise.
I actually laughed out loud..
And for Cosmoray and I can say the same thing at the same time...
Amarr for Life |
Jasper Pravitas
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:30:00 -
[47]
I see no reason why this model (the insurance, not the IPO) cant be applied to modules and implants. These things can be confirmed via killmail and are not concord insured. It should be possible to build risk models for these things? |
SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:40:00 -
[48]
Edited by: SencneS on 26/01/2009 04:41:11
Originally by: Jasper Pravitas
I see no reason why this model (the insurance, not the IPO) cant be applied to modules and implants. These things can be confirmed via killmail and are not concord insured. It should be possible to build risk models for these things?
Things people would insure that are not insured by EVE.
Officer Mods
Faction Implants
BPOs EVEN T1 BPOs.
POSes... maybe Probably but hard to call since these things usually shoot back.
The best part about this items is there is no insurance for them. Which means you could have a payout ratio of something like 1.1:1...
One thing you could also cover is the cost of coverage.
Things like Medical Clone cost.
In-game Platinum insurance cost. (One I came up with a while ago, read about it here) - That thread was back in October. |
Jasper Pravitas
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:55:00 -
[49]
What about insuring people? Basically bonding individuals... |
Bret Caliaro
Fortuna inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.26 05:06:00 -
[50]
This could be a terrible idea as I'm very tired but have you thought of limiting business to empire players only to support the start up?
Eliminates most high risk factors and would provide you with a low risk set of customers to fund the more risky but potentially more profitable 0.0 players.
Of course how you would check if they are empire players is a matter suited to someone who has had more sleep than me, but just a suggestion. |
Dreamwalker
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Posted - 2009.01.26 07:27:00 -
[51]
I like the idea of implant insurance but how are you going to see if they did in fact lose the implants?
But I like to pvp in 0.0 with implants in so I would look at this and I could be a buyer of insurance. But I lose so many clones that I would be paying you 1.2 times the cost of replacements.
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Waseem
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.26 16:10:00 -
[52]
I like the premise of getting insurance on my POSes doing moon operations, especially for when I deploy new towers as part of the network.
I would probably put up a new POS setup and insure it for 2-3 months to find out if it is too "hot" of a place to put the POS. |
nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.26 17:44:00 -
[53]
I didn't have time to read all the posts (kind of busy today), but an insurance company for pvp ships seems like it won't work. So that's pretty much out. PvE is what you have to go after, either high sec mission runners, miners, or something else.
Anyway sorry if this has already been said.
--------------------
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Dreamwalker
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Posted - 2009.01.26 18:59:00 -
[54]
Originally by: nether void
I didn't have time to read all the posts (kind of busy today), but an insurance company for pvp ships seems like it won't work. So that's pretty much out. PvE is what you have to go after, either high sec mission runners, miners, or something else.
Anyway sorry if this has already been said.
But the question is why would someone insure there PvE ships?
They won't because it won't blow up.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.26 19:40:00 -
[55]
A player driven insurance market is one that keeps coming out every few months or so.
The best 'theoretical model' proposed so far went something like:
1. Player A buys insurance from XXX insurance
2. Player A loses ship, and submits claim to XXX
3. XXX performs API audit on Player A
4. If players A purchased CCP insurance (seen from CCp payout), insurance is invalidated. No double pay
5. If API audit veifies claims, player A is paid
This was the only method that seemed avoid scamming/theft/ etc..
The idea was to go for T2 ships where CCP insurance doesn't cover much. target audience would be carebears who don't get popped much, but when they do, they would get 100% back or a new ship.
The huge problem with the scheme is that each claim requires an API audit. The whole process becomes very complex and takes time.
Who wants to be an employee doing all that work?
The investors don't?
Too much work, not worth the effort!
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eVaLF
Delivery Luck
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Posted - 2009.01.26 20:18:00 -
[56]
Does API verify implants. I have some extra isk sitting around atm and insuring (basic) implants may be a good start to see how things work. |
achoura
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Posted - 2009.01.26 21:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: SencneS
There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for.
Four Motherhships
Four Titans
Don't mean to be rude, but either we're playing a different game or my tii insurance doesn't work. |
Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: cosmoray
No we are not buying bonds.
BONDS PAY A FIXED INTEREST RATE PER MONTH, AND AT THE END OF THE BOND LIFE THEY ARE REPURCHASED AT FACE VALUE
You are offering us a piece of the business (40%) with an unknown amount of return.
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. We are changing our Business plan to better fit the needs of possible investors.
Originally by: cosmoray
Come back and relaunch when you are REALLY ready.
At the moment this is a mess, and I don't see anyone stumping up ISK to invest.
A good guide to IPO's is that you don't have any takers on the first page, and all you get is questions then the IPO is not getting off the ground in its current form.
Thank you for your advice, but again there seems to be a misunderstanding. This is NOT, I repeat, not the IPO. This is a copy of our business plan given to the community to look over.
Also, working on such as small scale would be difficult, as most of the items we would try to insure our in the 100M to 1B range. We have a customer base in mind, and we will update the OP to show this. Thank you very much for your critique, It allows us to sort out the details that we miss.
Originally by: SencneS
Their risk factor is HUGE! and the mom and titans cost multiple of tens of billions. Even if you had a awesome working model you'd need some MAJOR backing for it to work.
Very true. However, I think proper use of Float in a quick, high turnover investment would help to make this very profitable.
Originally by: SencneS
Word of advice guys.. Come up with one or the other first.
Either come up with a great insurance model or an IPO model.
Trying to work out whats best for insurance at the same time working out an IPO is a bad idea.
Yes, I totally agree. we are mainly working on the insurance model, although a lot of that pertains to how we will market the IPO, ect.
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots)
...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise.
Yes! I agree. I think this could be turned into a profitable situation though if float is taken into account.
Originally by: Jasper Pravitas
It should be possible to build risk models for these things?
I see no reason we couldn't figure out date on such items using customer history.
Originally by: Bret Caliaro
This could be a terrible idea as I'm very tired but have you thought of limiting business to empire players only to support the start up?
Eliminates most high risk factors and would provide you with a low risk set of customers to fund the more risky but potentially more profitable 0.0 players.
This would lower out total income, due to decrease of float. We really want to diversify as much as possible, but still be able to calculate the time it will take for a claim to be made after the policy is started.
Originally by: Dreamwalker
I like the idea of implant insurance but how are you going to see if they did in fact lose the implants?
Interesting question. I will have to look into it, and then give you my answer, as API is not my expertise.
Originally by: nether void
Anyway sorry if this has already been said.
No problem, every question, and comment only allows us to fill out our plan, and consider new options. Most likely all PVP ships short of titans and maybe T2 ships would be not included in our policies.
Originally by: eVaLF
Does API verify implants. I have some extra isk sitting around atm and insuring (basic) implants may be a good start to see how things work.
I will have to ask around. Maybe one of the Auditors will know?
I would like to thank everybody for their understanding, and fantastic comments, and questions. MD, although sometimes a harsh place, is a very good place due to the community to figure out exactly how your business will work. |
SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:49:00 -
[59]
Edited by: SencneS on 26/01/2009 22:49:52
Originally by: achoura
Originally by: SencneS
There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for.
Four Motherhships
Four Titans
Don't mean to be rude, but either we're playing a different game or my tii insurance doesn't work.
You can buy insurance for these ships, it's just not as "rewarding" as T1 ships.
Motherships and Titans are unable to dock so the only insurance you get is the default 40% payout. You are simply unable to buy any insurance from the game for these eight ships.
Amarr for Life |
Aluin Chaput
Caldari
The Monad Family
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:52:00 -
[60]
Also, you where dead on with your cost estimates on both, although 90B looks like the going price for titans... I believe they could in fact become a major source of income later on.
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