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Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:46:00 - [1] I've recently been working with Aluin Chaput and Nina Klept (Thepurpl1) on a business plan. Here it is, finalized. How we evaluate a client's history: 1. Using battleclinic's killboard, we will find the amount of time between first loss of the ship we're insuring, and now. Clients will not send in fake killmails, as it would increase their premium. 2. We will then total the losses of that ship that have occurred in that time frame. 3. Find the average losses per week. 4. Find the value of the ship lost in our rate manual, and multiply that by the average losses per week to get the average isk loss per week. Rate Manual This will be used as part of a calculation for our client's premium. Each ship, POS, module, and implant will have an entry in our rate manual, detailing its value, and the it's risk of being lost within the lifetime of the policy. We will use public databases, along with our own records to modify this rate manual. The risk of a ship being lost will be shown as a risk modifier. Premium Calculations The calculation for the starting premium will be the ISK loss number multiplied by the risk modifier. Policies We will use freeform contracts to keep track of policies. The contracts will expire 1 week after they are accepted. We will bill our clients before the policy renews, as to avoid any gaps in coverage. We reserve the right to cancel a policy at any time. If a policy is cancelled, we will refund the premium *( the number of days left / 7). We will only cancel an insured's policy if they have an inordinate frequency of claims and/or are suspected of fraud. Only directors and employees in the claims and producers departments can view policies. Client information will be shared with nobody outside the corporation. Claims Claims will be managed by our own killboard which will be made by one of our employees. Clients will provide us with an application that describes what they want insured, and gives us an API key. We will then use their API key to keep track of losses with our killboard. Claim payouts will always be less than the insured ship's value. This is to avoid insurance fraud. Claims will only be paid for losses that can be verified with our killboard. Each claim will raise our client's premium for their policy by 20% Each policy period with no claims will reduce the policy's premium by 10% until a minimum premium of 20% of the policy's coverage is reached. Management Profits will be split 4 ways. 20% goes to me, Nath Beta/Frumpy Fresh 20% goes to Aluin Chaput, a co-director 20% goes to Nina Klept, a co-director 40% goes to our shareholders and employees The employees will be divided into Claims, Producers, Programmers, and Public Relations departments. Claims will manage claim payoffs, and the adjustment of premiums that they will result in. They also will inform the directors if any policies need to be cancelled. Producers will sell policies, and create policy applications, by getting applications from the client, and figuring out their starting premium. Programmers will probably be our smallest department. They will create, and maintain our killboard and our website. Public relations will manage complaints and disputes, and will keep our threads on any number of forums active. Investors We wil sell 30B in stock. Chribba will take 25B of it for security. The rest will be managed by directors. We will have audits done by DBANK and an independent auditor monthly. Our dividends will be invested in 1-month CDs bought from DBANK. If you'd like to get involved in what could possible be EVE's first successful insurance company, or would like to make any sort of suggestions or comments please post here.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:47:00 - [2] Confirming I have worked with Nath and Nina on this one, feel free to criticize it as much as you want, hopefully we can take it.
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Waseem on 25/01/2009 23:56:08 Will Chribba be the one ISK is sent to by investors/policy purchasers?
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:06:00 - [4] Yes, ISK would be sent directly to Chribba, so there would be 0% chance of that 25B being used for nefarious purposes.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:25:00 - [5] who from DBank is auditing and who is the independant auditor
Elrissa	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:30:00 - [6] I have a few questions, first how much are you asking per share, and how many shares available? Second, do you really think there is a high enough need or market for this in eve? Do you have any strategy when it comes to finding clients?
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:30:00 - [7] Well, as this is only a plan, we don't know. Although they would be a trusted member of MD. Once we get consent from DBank, Chribba and the auditor we will start the IPO.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:31:00 - [8] Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 00:32:31 So if I invested 1B, what do you expect my return to be (%) per month seeing as I am only sharing 40% of profits? Trsuted member of MD. I want a name who has agreed to do it?
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:43:00 - [9] Originally by: cosmoray Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 00:32:31 So if I invested 1B, what do you expect my return to be (%) per month seeing as I am only sharing 40% of profits? Trsuted member of MD. I want a name who has agreed to do it? that 40% would be divvied up among shareholders, then given out. Due to the nature of this business, promising a fixed rate of profits would make little sense, as the first months would no doubt force us to put in more then we get out of it. If Brock Nelson would be willing, I would like him to audit it.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:55:00 - [10] Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 00:55:51 Its an awfully big amount of cash you want for an undetermined amount of dividends, and even that is only 40% of the profits. Most other IPO's pay out more of the profits as dividends. A management fee of up to about 40% can be fair, or dividend reinvestment. shareholders don't get much and may take many months for there to be any profits at all. What if after 3-4 months business is not picking up and the corp is not making any money or even losing money. How do investors get out?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:58:00 - [11] It's a IPO, it doesn't have fixed rate. Any profit generated is to go to the investors and only the investors. Nothing goes back to people that runs the business. If you wanna get paid, then take your share before calculating the profit. If you want a fixed rate, then you're looking for a bond. 10% for Returning Customers
Elrissa	Posted - 2009.01.26 00:59:00 - [12] Originally by: cosmoray Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 00:55:51 Its an awfully big amount of cash you want for an undetermined amount of dividends, and even that is only 40% of the profits. Most other IPO's pay out more of the profits as dividends. A management fee of up to about 40% can be fair, or dividend reinvestment. shareholders don't get much and may take many months for there to be any profits at all. What if after 3-4 months business is not picking up and the corp is not making any money or even losing money. How do investors get out? Seeing as how I asked a similar question (is this even a viable business?), and no one has answered it. I think i will be passing. Too much money, I really doubt there is that much of a need, no exit strategy, and I have no clue what kind of returns to expect... Do I think this is a scam? No. I just don't think its a viable business, sorry mates.
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:00:00 - [13] Originally by: cosmoray Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 00:55:51 Its an awfully big amount of cash you want for an undetermined amount of dividends, and even that is only 40% of the profits. Most other IPO's pay out more of the profits as dividends. A management fee of up to about 40% can be fair, or dividend reinvestment. What we're working on isn't set in stone, it's a plan. If you think we should raise the portion of the profits that go to the investors, let us know, and we will see what we can do.
Elrissa	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Elrissa on 26/01/2009 01:01:46 Originally by: Brock Nelson It's a IPO, it doesn't have fixed rate. Any profit generated is to go to the investors and only the investors. Nothing goes back to people that runs the business. If you wanna get paid, then take your share before calculating the profit. If you want a fixed rate, then you're looking for a bond. You cannot even give us a business outlook though. You have not told us what kind of returns you expect, and therefore that leads me to believe you don't know. At any rate I will stop trolling your thread. The best of luck to you.
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Elrissa Seeing as how I asked a similar question (is this even a viable business?), and no one has answered it. I think i will be passing. Too much money, I really doubt there is that much of a need, no exit strategy, and I have no clue what kind of returns to expect... Do I think this is a scam? No. I just don't think its a viable business, sorry mates. People probably said that about banks in EVE before they were established too. How can you say that this isn't a viable business when nobody has even implemented it? As for ways out, we will be able to buy back your shares. You think there isn't a need, but if there wasn't, why wouldn't CCP take the in-game insurance feature out of the economy? All it does is feed money to the economy (with their policy's payouts and their low premiums in-game insurance would be hemorrhaging cash if it were a player-run corporation. What kind of returns should you expect? Well, obviously this business will either become the first and only insurance company in EVE, or it won't make it off the ground. If it doesn't make it off the ground, we will stop selling policies, and return the investors' money. If it works however, you will be in on the dividends of a company that has created and cornered a market of its own.
achoura	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:08:00 - [16] Edited by: achoura on 26/01/2009 01:07:53 Relying on your customers to be honest about losses is an interesting concept in insurance, i was under the impression the single thing any insurance company would not do it trust their client to be totally honest. A large portion of eve does not use battleclinic's killboard and what you've just said is basically the first kill posted will be the one used for my perineum so how do you know that the first kill on their is really the first and not just one i decided to post to reduce my cost to you? I would only invest in this if you verified your kills via api. I.e. you had your own killboard in which your clients limited apis were used to verify previous losses and legitimate claims (how do you know if a battleclinic kill is real and not faked?). I further suggest that, in the even of the api being down/changed, insurance claims are nullified until it has been restored. This would have two key advantages: Ensuring activity is not fraudulent Streamlining your database/spreadsheets, removing the human element would make the process quicker, instantly accessible and i can only assume making accounting simpler A side note, unrelated to the above proposal, would be to draw from other killboard feeds as well but not effecting the apis as the verification. If you drew from both griefwatch and eve dev killboards you would potentially create the largest, most accurate kill database for eve (as accurate as anyone could make it without have access to ccps). Almost invaluable when accounting premiums not to mention that level of accuracy and (potential snag) traffic would only increase intest in your operation. Just my thoughts, but i still say get independent, non-fakable, verification hen handing out isk or i guarantee somone will take advantage of your isk. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:12:00 - [17] Originally by: achoura Edited by: achoura on 26/01/2009 01:07:53 Just my thoughts, but i still say get independent, non-fakable, verification hen handing out isk or i guarantee somone will take advantage of your isk. We will be using the api to verify kills for our clients- our programmer is working that out now. We will only use battleclinic's killboard to verify what premiums to start at. As for finding what premiums to start at, our options are either public killboards or nothing at all, and we'd prefer to minimize the guesswork that would be involved with the latter.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Elrissa Originally by: Brock Nelson It's a IPO, it doesn't have fixed rate. Any profit generated is to go to the investors and only the investors. Nothing goes back to people that runs the business. If you wanna get paid, then take your share before calculating the profit. If you want a fixed rate, then you're looking for a bond. We would own 60% of the shares, although we wouldn't put in ISK for the IPO. Originally by: Elrissa You cannot even give us a business outlook though. You have not told us what kind of returns you expect, and therefore that leads me to believe you don't know. At any rate I will stop trolling your thread. The best of luck to you. Again, we can't know. I believe 2% would be very reasonable on the second month, and profit would increase over time.
Elrissa	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Nath Beta Originally by: Elrissa Seeing as how I asked a similar question (is this even a viable business?), and no one has answered it. I think i will be passing. Too much money, I really doubt there is that much of a need, no exit strategy, and I have no clue what kind of returns to expect... Do I think this is a scam? No. I just don't think its a viable business, sorry mates. People probably said that about banks in EVE before they were established too. How can you say that this isn't a viable business when nobody has even implemented it? As for ways out, we will be able to buy back your shares. You think there isn't a need, but if there wasn't, why wouldn't CCP take the in-game insurance feature out of the economy? All it does is feed money to the economy (with their policy's payouts and their low premiums in-game insurance would be hemorrhaging cash if it were a player-run corporation. What kind of returns should you expect? Well, obviously this business will either become the first and only insurance company in EVE, or it won't make it off the ground. If it doesn't make it off the ground, we will stop selling policies, and return the investors' money. If it works however, you will be in on the dividends of a company that has created and cornered a market of its own. Well, I see your point on it being a untested model, but eve has been around for a while now, and that in itself is a testament that this service is not needed. You said it yourself, CCP already has it in as a feature in the game, and the feature works well for what it is. It is a heck of a lot easier to use as the customer than your system. On the other hand, CCP does not have a bank in the game. Thus there is a need for one.
Jasper Pravitas	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:17:00 - [20] I have been a longtime proponent of player-run insurance and still am. This has been the best approach I've seen up to this point, the only flaw I can see is in Concord insurance nullification. It's still too easy for someone to 'double-dip', which will skew the risk factors. While the killmail may be verified, a staged kill is easy enough to set up if the price is right. I do believe non-concord insurable items would be viable under this context, as long as killmail veracity could be assured.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:20:00 - [21] Originally by: cosmoray So if I invested 1B, what do you expect my return to be (%) per month seeing as I am only sharing 40% of profits? I don't know if you would see a return for a long time. You have to consider that "Profits" is all ISK left over from premiums collected minus all claims made, plus any interest gained from investments. Then 60% of that is paid out to people. Remember it's 40% off the PROFIT, not 40% return. We have no idea how much the "Profit" there is.. To Nath... There are a few things I really don't like about this.. 1) 20% price hike per claim, I don't know about how many people would want to re-purchase a policy after that amount of a hike. Welcome to the 1 policy per person club. What is especially "wrong" about this idea is.. I could never lose a ship in fleet battles, I always make it out alive. Then one day I'm in highsec mining away and some goons come along and gank my ship on a jihad run. I just happen to have both my fleet ship and my highsec miner insured.. I'm getting punished for a death that had nothing combat. 2) Premium is based off pilots death rate.. A highsec mission farmer would most likely have a low rate of death, where as a 0.0 fleet/raid commander would have a high death rate. You're virtually elimiating at least 50% of the player base from ever wanting to get insurance. I still don't see any type of payout rate. In order to complete with the in-game ISK fountain you need to pay out at least 2:1. How much is 1 Navy Raven Highsec Mission runner going to pay in premiums and how often are they paying, and how much would they get on the claim? It's all well in good to say "They'll get less then the cost of the ship" and that "The premium will go down 10% every <enter unknown insurance cycle time here>" But unless it's directly competeing with in-game insurance it's not going to be attacive to anyone. Amarr for Life
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:21:00 - [22] To any potential investors, I would probably give careful thought before investing in an IPO whose figurehead makes a living out of "stealing" (note the quotes) salvage and goading other players. If you're legit, best of luck. EVE needs (somehow) a player-driven insurance market -------------------------------------------- Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Well done for pointing that out. Well done you.
achoura	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:30:00 - [23] Battelclinics kill board really is not accurate, my kills for exampl onl y have 1.5 of my 3 yeas in eve on it, sporadically since i continually forget when i update my api. In rl, insurance claims are verified by the police database, partly for accuracy partly because such a detailed record allows them to accurately gauge costs. Such a database for eve does not exist. If you truly wish to do this basing your business model on inaccurate data not a smart move, for many, many reasons. You need that accurate database and the only way to get it is to do it yourself. Api is easy, drawing feed from other boards might take afew days to get in, but once done it's again easy. Lastly taking a feed from your board* and running it into a server or spread sheet and you have everything you need on one page, updating hourly if you wanted. Set that up and leave it running for afew weeks then compare it to battelclinics. I don't deny this won't work, how many ppl enjoy no insurance tii, but asking people to invest on what is pretty much self admitted guess work won't happen. Pos and mods might be api fed but alot of boards simply dont use them, it's api for that. The EVE servers and their patches*
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:31:00 - [24] My response to the problem of competing with the in-game insurance system, the current system can't insure the exposure of getting podded, nor does it insure t2 ships, capital ships, or player owned stations for what they're actually worth. Thank you for the input Jasper Pravitas. In order to deal with the risk of someone "double-dipping," as I said before, the payouts will be less than the value of the ship. To stop people from "double-dipping" we would simply lower payouts to the point that it would no longer be profitable.
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 01:39:00 - [25] Okay, so here are my questions. Lets say Chribba is on board with collecting all the isk for policies and somehow keeping track of that. Then along with that Chribba is willing to hold all the investors money that is used for payouts. Then Chribba is also willing to give you isk to make payouts and verify you are making these payouts instead of keeping the isk he transfers to you. It sounds like Chribba is doing all the work simply because of his trustworthiness. In order to make sure you aren't keeping the payout money Chribba would have to send payouts for you on claims you approve and send to him. Granted you will have monthly audits, but in the first month there is nothing to say you won't have claim after claim and most of the money would be going towards "payouts". In the last fleet engagement I was a part of there was over 80 battleships destroyed. That's over 8 billion isk lost on one Saturday in one small sector of the war in the south based upon hull cost alone. You could easily go through most of the 30b in investor money in the first month, possibly the first week/weekend, before an audit is completed to show you are paying out. Yet I don't see his name listed anywhere in the percentages for whatever fee he is going to charge you to do this. 40% goes to employees and investors. But if there is no profit I don't see Chribba doing this for nothing. If he was willing to do this, wouldn't it be called Chribba Insurance? How did you decide on 30 billion isk being the magic number? For POS structures how are you going to manage them? CEO's can only purchase? Rate is based on the corp? What about all the reselling that goes on of corps, not to mention just setting new alts as CEO?
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:27:00 - [26] First, I would like to thank everybody for their questions. Secondly, I would like to say that this is a running plan. Every comment you make is taken into accoutn, and we are working right now to update the plan. Originally by: Waseem Okay, so here are my questions. Yet I don't see his name listed anywhere in the percentages for whatever fee he is going to charge you to do this. 40% goes to employees and investors. But if there is no profit I don't see Chribba doing this for nothing. If he was willing to do this, wouldn't it be called Chribba Insurance? How did you decide on 30 billion isk being the magic number? For POS structures how are you going to manage them? CEO's can only purchase? Rate is based on the corp? What about all the reselling that goes on of corps, not to mention just setting new alts as CEO? That is intact something we need to work out. Chribba no doubt would get some portion of the profit. However, Chribba is far from doing all of the work. Most, if not all of it is kept in case a vast amount of claims come in at once... it is all to make sure we don't find out selves in a situation where the claims must be delayed. He won't even have to audit us to any large extend, just confirm at the end of the month we took out what we said we took out. Chribba is necessary to insure a large chuck of the ISK is safe. it will not be possible for us to run away with everything. 30B gives us enough to get a few clients, maybe one POS owner, a few people in Battleships, ect. enough we can get a decent amount of people, and then slowly expand. it is also about as much as I think we could get for the IPO. The CEO would buy, pay the premium. If the corp is selled, at the end of the policy the new CEO would have to renew the contract, nothing to hard. As we are hashing out out method to determine premium, I cannot answer the second part of your question. Originally by: SencneS To Nath... There are a few things I really don't like about this.. 1) 20% price hike per claim, I don't know about how many people would want to re-purchase a policy after that amount of a hike. Welcome to the 1 policy per person club. What is especially "wrong" about this idea is.. I could never lose a ship in fleet battles, I always make it out alive. Then one day I'm in highsec mining away and some goons come along and gank my ship on a jihad run. I just happen to have both my fleet ship and my highsec miner insured.. I'm getting punished for a death that had nothing combat. 2) Premium is based off pilots death rate.. A highsec mission farmer would most likely have a low rate of death, where as a 0.0 fleet/raid commander would have a high death rate. You're virtually elimiating at least 50% of the player base from ever wanting to get insurance. I still don't see any type of payout rate. In order to complete with the in-game ISK fountain you need to pay out at least 2:1. How much is 1 Navy Raven Highsec Mission runner going to pay in premiums and how often are they paying, and how much would they get on the claim? It's all well in good to say "They'll get less then the cost of the ship" and that "The premium will go down 10% every <enter unknown insurance cycle time here>" But unless it's directly competeing with in-game insurance it's not going to be attacive to anyone. That rate is per policy, and it is going to be dropped to 5%, to make it more fair. We are also going to change this, stay tuned for specifics... Also, as both of us have said many times, we aren't competing with Concord Insurance. We are doing only items not covered by concord.
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:07:00 - [27] The OP has been updated to reflect the changes we've been discussing.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:17:00 - [28] Players double dipping and the "Always less then the cost of the ship" Lets assume the a it's a 100mil market value, and a CCP base value of 30mil. Seems pretty resonable. Considering you have given NO details about what people could expect to pay, I'm going to assume it's 40% market value. 40mil gives them 80mil assuming you're going to match CCP 2:1 payout. Which would be stupid if you didn't match. Now CCP insurance pays 40% base value which is 16mil. Costs 12mil to buy platinum insurance which gets you the remainder 24mil. So on ship death they get 80mil+30mil = 110mil. Sounds like a great way to go bankrupt with very little effect on the individual. Considering "Salvage" picked up from T2 ships also included which can net you at least 10mil and could be as high as 40mil. Lets forget about salvage.. Lets assume you drop down to 30% market value premium and 60% market value payout. You're now below that the market value and it' starting to cost more then you get payout. But is it?.. You're getting 28mil free by CCP 16mil default, the 24mil from platinum minus the 16mil it cost to get platinum. At 30% market value for you premiums, thats 30mil, but you just got 28mil from CCP so it cost 2mil to get.... 60mil.. THAT'S AN AWESOME investment where can I sign up... since double dipping is not a concern.. I really wish you guys luck because you'll need it to stay afloat. Amarr for Life
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:25:00 - [29] Originally by: SencneS Players double dipping and the "Always less then the cost of the ship" Lets assume the a it's a 100mil market value, and a CCP base value of 30mil. Seems pretty resonable. Considering you have given NO details about what people could expect to pay, I'm going to assume it's 40% market value. 40mil gives them 80mil assuming you're going to match CCP 2:1 payout. Which would be stupid if you didn't match. Now CCP insurance pays 40% base value which is 16mil. Costs 12mil to buy platinum insurance which gets you the remainder 24mil. So on ship death they get 80mil+30mil = 110mil. Sounds like a great way to go bankrupt with very little effect on the individual. Considering "Salvage" picked up from T2 ships also included which can net you at least 10mil and could be as high as 40mil. Lets forget about salvage.. Lets assume you drop down to 30% market value premium and 60% market value payout. You're now below that the market value and it' starting to cost more then you get payout. But is it?.. You're getting 28mil free by CCP 16mil default, the 24mil from platinum minus the 16mil it cost to get platinum. At 30% market value for you premiums, thats 30mil, but you just got 28mil from CCP so it cost 2mil to get.... 60mil.. THAT'S AN AWESOME investment where can I sign up... since double dipping is not a concern.. I really wish you guys luck because you'll need it to stay afloat. Yes, that is reasonable... for a tech 1 ship. We have no intentions of competing with in-game insurance. We will be insuring tech 2 ships, implants, and POSes. You pretty much described why we won't be insuring things that in-game insurance covers.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Nath Beta Yes, that is reasonable... for a tech 1 ship. We have no intentions of competing with in-game insurance. We will be insuring tech 2 ships, implants, and POSes. You pretty much described why we won't be insuring things that in-game insurance covers. When was the last time a T1 ship have a base price of 30mil and costs 100mil market value. That is a T2 ship I'm talking about here. This is not an issue to complete with in-game, this is an issue to how people can use your insurance model to benifit themselves. Amarr for Life
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:35:00 - [31] Edited by: Waseem on 26/01/2009 03:37:40 Only way I could see that working would be to require the T2 insurance payment to be sent to them as part of the policy, and the requirement would be to have X level of insurance on the ship in order to make the policy valid. Have the person send the payout to a specified corporate wallet and make it a prerequisite to getting the other payout.
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:38:00 - [32] Edited by: Nath Beta on 26/01/2009 03:38:55 Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Nath Beta Yes, that is reasonable... for a tech 1 ship. We have no intentions of competing with in-game insurance. We will be insuring tech 2 ships, implants, and POSes. You pretty much described why we won't be insuring things that in-game insurance covers. When was the last time a T1 ship have a base price of 30mil and costs 100mil market value. That is a T2 ship I'm talking about here. This is not an issue to complete with in-game, this is an issue to how people can use your insurance model to benifit themselves. Thanks for pointing this out. I'll talk over it with the directors. If you're right, we might be restricted to only insuring pods and player owned stations. Even if we have to do that, the market has those exposures, and will need insurance for them. I hope I can get you guys behind me on at least that.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:40:00 - [33] Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:43:49 Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:40:09 We are currently looking for a team of traders to handle company investments. If you are interested, please say so in this thread, or EVEmail me. also, make sure to include your qualification
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:42:00 - [34] So your investors are also employees? Not sure why investors need qualifications?
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:44:00 - [35] Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 03:45:17 I didn't realise you were keeping 60% of the shares too. So if you are selling 30B in shares, that is 40% of the float. That means the business is worth 75B. Why would an insurance company be worth 75B ISK? That would be the biggest of the newer IPO's (since 1.1.08). Why do you get 60% of the shares for free? When most other players launch IPO's they inject capital into the project equalling their share or take a management fee? To summarise: 1. You are opening a 75B ISK insurance business 2. You don't know what sort of returns the investors will get 3. They could lose money 4. Your business plan isn't worked out completely 5. The investors take all the risk, and you just provide know how. The investors take all the risk (ISK), you take most of the profits. Why should I invest again?
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Waseem So your investors are also employees? Not sure why investors need qualifications? sorry for the misunderstanding, I mean a team of traders to handle company investments, not investors in the company. I have changed my post to reflect that.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:51:00 - [37] Edited by: Aluin Chaput on 26/01/2009 03:54:49 Originally by: cosmoray Edited by: cosmoray on 26/01/2009 03:45:17 I didn't realize you were keeping 60% of the shares too. So if you are selling 30B in shares, that is 40% of the float. That means the business is worth 75B. Why would an insurance company be worth 75B ISK? That would be the biggest of the newer IPO's (since 1.1.08). Why do you get 60% of the shares for free? When most other players launch IPO's they inject capital into the project equalling their share or take a management fee? To summarise: 1. You are opening a 75B ISK insurance business 2. You don't know what sort of returns the investors will get 3. They could lose money 4. Your business plan isn't worked out completely 5. The investors take all the risk, and you just provide know how. The investors take all the risk (ISK), you take most of the profits. Why should I invest again? 60% of the functional profit, not shares. Think of it as our fixed salary. Also, you can never know a percentage of profits for any stock. you have to base it off of if you believe you will make ISK off of it, not that somebody tells you that you will get X amount of ISK back... also, there is always a chance of risk. Everything has risk. Saying otherwise is to lie. However, we have worked to mitigate risk in every way possible, if you can help us in this area, please do. you should invest because this is a great idea, with a good chance of success. You should invest cause we can't run away with all your well invested ISK, no matter what. This is why you should invest. If you don't feel it is a safe investment, don't invest. However, I think we can all agree that taking a leap of faith for a few honest guys can be very profitable. Who knows, maybe you could help our company make profit.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Nath Beta Thanks for pointing this out. I'll talk over it with the directors. If you're right, we might be restricted to only insuring pods and player owned stations. Even if we have to do that, the market has those exposures, and will need insurance for them. I hope I can get you guys behind me on at least that. In the years I've been watching, read, thinking about Insurance in EVE there is 1001 things you need to consider. This is why no one has done it before. Ship insurance is exploitable in most situations. If you look back though the history of threads in this forum every so often someone comes on thinking they have the solution. It's almost ALWAYS T2 ships because it's lacking in EVE. However that's the point.. it's lacking, it's not that it's not existent, it's the fact it's not as good as T1 insurance. Insuring a POS is nice because you're doing something no one else not even CCP does. Implants/POD insurance, sure why not. While you're at it, you may want to spice up the POD insurance with "Paid for clone" as in, according to you SP you need x amount of SP covered which costs Y amount. Just as tip to make it more attractive. Ships are done, ships are covered by CCP and do exactly what insurance should do, lower the margin of loss. And I remind you CCP does this instantly, you'll never compete with CCP's instant gratification. Amarr for Life
Nath Beta Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:52:00 - [39] Cosmoray, investors will be buying bonds, not shares. Your isk will be held by Chribba, and paid back in 6 months. There will be 30B in capital. 25B of it will be held by Chribba, and 5B will be liquid, and the three directors will be in control of it. I'm changing the OP now to clarify this.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 03:58:00 - [40] SencneS, what about cap ships? Ships may not become our main thing, but I think we should give them a try. Also, such things as Mods, cargo ect could be insured eventually. Most everything can be insured if you think about it.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Nath Beta Cosmoray, investors will be buying bonds, not shares. Your isk will be held by Chribba, and paid back in 6 months. There will be 30B in capital. 25B of it will be held by Chribba, and 5B will be liquid, and the three directors will be in control of it. I'm changing the OP now to clarify this. No we are not buying bonds. BONDS PAY A FIXED INTEREST RATE PER MONTH, AND AT THE END OF THE BOND LIFE THEY ARE REPURCHASED AT FACE VALUE You are offering us a piece of the business (40%) with an unknown amount of return.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Aluin Chaput SencneS, what about cap ships? Ships may not become our main thing, but I think we should give them a try. Also, such things as Mods, cargo ect could be insured eventually. Most everything can be insured if you think about it. Cap ships.. almost the same thing - ALMOST.. There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for. Four Motherhships Four Titans Those are target audience, which is yet another reason why no one does ship insurance :) A mum costs what 30b (Wild stab in the dark) Titan costs 80b (Again wild stab in the dark) Although these two class ships can never get In-game insurance they do get default insurance. It comes down to how close of a margin are the ships to market cost. I happen to know all capitals are above base cost but only by a small margin, a very small margin. So third party insurance is exploitable on everything apart from Motherships and Titans. The issue there is, the premiums cost a fortune and you'll be hurting the first one that gets claimed on. Also you'll be dealing with the "Fleet" effect - Interesting little juicy bit of info. Before Capitals go on major fleet objectives they check the insurance. Now if you go with third party insurance you'll have a massive influx of policies, sounds sweet until you see the death toll. Major alliances will say "We're going to attack a POS.." you'll get some nice policy purchases but they will never renew them until they are called on again. Their risk factor is HUGE! and the mom and titans cost multiple of tens of billions. Even if you had a awesome working model you'd need some MAJOR backing for it to work.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:17:00 - [43] I strongly suggest that you go away and work on your business plan. Work out: 1. Who your customers are going to be 2. What the premiums are 3. A reasonable size business that doesn't need to be worth 75B 4. Start it off small to see if model works 2-3B ISk 5. If it works get a capital float of about 5-10B ISK, and limit your potential liabilities to that maximum amount 5. Work out an effective share/owner structure 6. Get some help with the business plan Come back and relaunch when you are REALLY ready. At the moment this is a mess, and I don't see anyone stumping up ISK to invest. A good guide to IPO's is that you don't have any takers on the first page, and all you get is questions then the IPO is not getting off the ground in its current form.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:17:00 - [44] Word of advice guys.. Come up with one or the other first. Either come up with a great insurance model or an IPO model. Trying to work out whats best for insurance at the same time working out an IPO is a bad idea. The IPO part alone is it's own beast. Work on one thing at a time, make that thing the way the insurance will work, then work on the IPO. It'll help sell the IPO faster if you know what you're working with and what will be needed etc. Amarr for Life
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:20:00 - [45] Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots) ...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:22:00 - [46] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots) ...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise. I actually laughed out loud.. And for Cosmoray and I can say the same thing at the same time... Amarr for Life
Jasper Pravitas	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:30:00 - [47] I see no reason why this model (the insurance, not the IPO) cant be applied to modules and implants. These things can be confirmed via killmail and are not concord insured. It should be possible to build risk models for these things?
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:40:00 - [48] Edited by: SencneS on 26/01/2009 04:41:11 Originally by: Jasper Pravitas I see no reason why this model (the insurance, not the IPO) cant be applied to modules and implants. These things can be confirmed via killmail and are not concord insured. It should be possible to build risk models for these things? Things people would insure that are not insured by EVE. Officer Mods Faction Implants BPOs EVEN T1 BPOs. POSes... maybe Probably but hard to call since these things usually shoot back. The best part about this items is there is no insurance for them. Which means you could have a payout ratio of something like 1.1:1... One thing you could also cover is the cost of coverage. Things like Medical Clone cost. In-game Platinum insurance cost. (One I came up with a while ago, read about it here) - That thread was back in October.
Jasper Pravitas	Posted - 2009.01.26 04:55:00 - [49] What about insuring people? Basically bonding individuals...
Bret Caliaro Fortuna inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 05:06:00 - [50] This could be a terrible idea as I'm very tired but have you thought of limiting business to empire players only to support the start up? Eliminates most high risk factors and would provide you with a low risk set of customers to fund the more risky but potentially more profitable 0.0 players. Of course how you would check if they are empire players is a matter suited to someone who has had more sleep than me, but just a suggestion.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.01.26 07:27:00 - [51] I like the idea of implant insurance but how are you going to see if they did in fact lose the implants? But I like to pvp in 0.0 with implants in so I would look at this and I could be a buyer of insurance. But I lose so many clones that I would be paying you 1.2 times the cost of replacements.
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:10:00 - [52] I like the premise of getting insurance on my POSes doing moon operations, especially for when I deploy new towers as part of the network. I would probably put up a new POS setup and insure it for 2-3 months to find out if it is too "hot" of a place to put the POS.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:44:00 - [53] I didn't have time to read all the posts (kind of busy today), but an insurance company for pvp ships seems like it won't work. So that's pretty much out. PvE is what you have to go after, either high sec mission runners, miners, or something else. Anyway sorry if this has already been said. --------------------
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:59:00 - [54] Originally by: nether void I didn't have time to read all the posts (kind of busy today), but an insurance company for pvp ships seems like it won't work. So that's pretty much out. PvE is what you have to go after, either high sec mission runners, miners, or something else. Anyway sorry if this has already been said. But the question is why would someone insure there PvE ships? They won't because it won't blow up.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:40:00 - [55] A player driven insurance market is one that keeps coming out every few months or so. The best 'theoretical model' proposed so far went something like: 1. Player A buys insurance from XXX insurance 2. Player A loses ship, and submits claim to XXX 3. XXX performs API audit on Player A 4. If players A purchased CCP insurance (seen from CCp payout), insurance is invalidated. No double pay 5. If API audit veifies claims, player A is paid This was the only method that seemed avoid scamming/theft/ etc.. The idea was to go for T2 ships where CCP insurance doesn't cover much. target audience would be carebears who don't get popped much, but when they do, they would get 100% back or a new ship. The huge problem with the scheme is that each claim requires an API audit. The whole process becomes very complex and takes time. Who wants to be an employee doing all that work? The investors don't? Too much work, not worth the effort!
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:18:00 - [56] Does API verify implants. I have some extra isk sitting around atm and insuring (basic) implants may be a good start to see how things work.
achoura	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:12:00 - [57] Originally by: SencneS There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for. Four Motherhships Four Titans Don't mean to be rude, but either we're playing a different game or my tii insurance doesn't work.
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 - [58] Originally by: cosmoray No we are not buying bonds. BONDS PAY A FIXED INTEREST RATE PER MONTH, AND AT THE END OF THE BOND LIFE THEY ARE REPURCHASED AT FACE VALUE You are offering us a piece of the business (40%) with an unknown amount of return. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. We are changing our Business plan to better fit the needs of possible investors. Originally by: cosmoray Come back and relaunch when you are REALLY ready. At the moment this is a mess, and I don't see anyone stumping up ISK to invest. A good guide to IPO's is that you don't have any takers on the first page, and all you get is questions then the IPO is not getting off the ground in its current form. Thank you for your advice, but again there seems to be a misunderstanding. This is NOT, I repeat, not the IPO. This is a copy of our business plan given to the community to look over. Also, working on such as small scale would be difficult, as most of the items we would try to insure our in the 100M to 1B range. We have a customer base in mind, and we will update the OP to show this. Thank you very much for your critique, It allows us to sort out the details that we miss. Originally by: SencneS Their risk factor is HUGE! and the mom and titans cost multiple of tens of billions. Even if you had a awesome working model you'd need some MAJOR backing for it to work. Very true. However, I think proper use of Float in a quick, high turnover investment would help to make this very profitable. Originally by: SencneS Word of advice guys.. Come up with one or the other first. Either come up with a great insurance model or an IPO model. Trying to work out whats best for insurance at the same time working out an IPO is a bad idea. Yes, I totally agree. we are mainly working on the insurance model, although a lot of that pertains to how we will market the IPO, ect. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Most insurance companies don't actively seek out drivers who wreck cars (capital fleet pilots) ...just keep that in mind when you're trying to make this a profitable enterprise. Yes! I agree. I think this could be turned into a profitable situation though if float is taken into account. Originally by: Jasper Pravitas It should be possible to build risk models for these things? I see no reason we couldn't figure out date on such items using customer history. Originally by: Bret Caliaro This could be a terrible idea as I'm very tired but have you thought of limiting business to empire players only to support the start up? Eliminates most high risk factors and would provide you with a low risk set of customers to fund the more risky but potentially more profitable 0.0 players. This would lower out total income, due to decrease of float. We really want to diversify as much as possible, but still be able to calculate the time it will take for a claim to be made after the policy is started. Originally by: Dreamwalker I like the idea of implant insurance but how are you going to see if they did in fact lose the implants? Interesting question. I will have to look into it, and then give you my answer, as API is not my expertise. Originally by: nether void Anyway sorry if this has already been said. No problem, every question, and comment only allows us to fill out our plan, and consider new options. Most likely all PVP ships short of titans and maybe T2 ships would be not included in our policies. Originally by: eVaLF Does API verify implants. I have some extra isk sitting around atm and insuring (basic) implants may be a good start to see how things work. I will have to ask around. Maybe one of the Auditors will know? I would like to thank everybody for their understanding, and fantastic comments, and questions. MD, although sometimes a harsh place, is a very good place due to the community to figure out exactly how your business will work.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:49:00 - [59] Edited by: SencneS on 26/01/2009 22:49:52 Originally by: achoura Originally by: SencneS There are only 8 ships in EVE that can never purchase insurance for. Four Motherhships Four Titans Don't mean to be rude, but either we're playing a different game or my tii insurance doesn't work. You can buy insurance for these ships, it's just not as "rewarding" as T1 ships. Motherships and Titans are unable to dock so the only insurance you get is the default 40% payout. You are simply unable to buy any insurance from the game for these eight ships. Amarr for Life
Aluin Chaput Caldari The Monad Family La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:52:00 - [60] Also, you where dead on with your cost estimates on both, although 90B looks like the going price for titans... I believe they could in fact become a major source of income later on.

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