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Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:26:00 - [1] Ok, it's getting pretty annoying to argue about this in multiple threads. I've noticed a handful of people consider AB fitted ships to be comedy killmails... To some people, the only thing they see is black and white. Even if you're blind, it doesn't mean grey isn't there. Lets look at Pros and Cons of the two. AB Pros Increases your speed decently. Allows you to easily sig/speed tank when orbiting closely to larger ships. Scrams have no affect on your speed. Light fitting requirements. Cons Slower than MWD. MWD Pros Very fast speed. Cons Higher fitting requirements Huge Sig Radius. Scram turns off MWD, if you have to make a tactical decision to run...you don't have much of a choice at all anyways. Huge sig and Scram penalties mean that survivability by burning back to gates is greatly diminished. Cap penalty. Are they balanced? Does fitting an AB really count as a comedy killmail? Every ship and setup are different and commonly have a specific role or general role to fill. Black and white. Where's the grey? Why can't we tolerate other peoples' setup if it doesn't fall in line with our style of play and prefference? You have your PVP fits, your PVE fits, your faction fits, your general purpose fits, honortank fits, lol fits, macro fits, ebay fits, and newb fits. Is there no grey area at all between any these setups? Can't we all just, get along? Lets hear all your thoughts guys. I'd like everyone to bring their best arguments to the table. Merin, this means you too, I know you wont fail to disappoint. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:58:00 - [2] In honor of you, I'll list the times to fit an AB over a MWD 1. Deadspace. MWD doesn't work, AB does. 2. PvE fits (but not 0.0 stuff, you want the MWD in order to haul back to gates) 3. Solo PvP T1 frigates, due to the fact an MWD is hard to fit/use with T1 frigates. Your target selection is terrible, just about anything that's PvP and/or decently fit will shred you. If you are suicide tackling for a big gang, you are better off with an MWD, as you will get in range faster and die just as fast. 4. Comedy PvP lolmails. Sure, you could make a workable fit with an AB on a Force Recon, but you 100% control the engagement with your Covert Ops cloak so you can cherry pick the narrow range of circumstances that you would have a benefit for having an AB. And guess what? Those ships can function the same, if not better with an MWD. As for 2pt scram ranges, what's the better defense? A. Have the highest top speed to escape 2pt tacklers. B. Move slightly faster when tackled (Somewhere between 0-2x your base speed as you will most likely be webbed too) *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:11:00 - [3] Edited by: Last Wolf on 27/01/2009 05:12:51 Edited by: Last Wolf on 27/01/2009 05:12:09 AB's have always been better than MWD when tackled. Scrams turning them off and web nerfs have not effected that But if you had had a MWD, you probably would have been going fast enough to not get tackled in the first place. Which means that MWD are still more useful in 8/10 situations. AB's have their uses, but most of us don't like waiting for the moons to align in order to PvP.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:12:00 - [4] It depends very much on the ship itself and what you wish to do with it, AB's are potent and effective on a great deal of setups (and especially so if someone's willing to think outside of the box, won't say any more than that).
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Artemis Rose A. Have the highest top speed to escape 2pt tacklers. B. Move slightly faster when tackled (Somewhere between 0-2x your base speed as you will most likely be webbed too) A. How would you know for sure if they're 2pt tacklers? B. This helps you "sig" tank larger ships. If you're in web range, you're right where you need to be. Certain ship setup specifically to do this could work with both MWD and AB fitted. Granted it would have to gimp other mods in order to do it, but if it excells at what it's meant to, would it be a comedy killmail? "slightly faster" Webbed MWD fitted ship will do very little speed at all. Webbed AB fitted ship will still go pretty compared to the former. Lets say...two harpies go at it(just because I'm familiar with their speeds) Mwd Harpy will go maybe 100-150ms or so when scrammed and webbed. AB Harpy will go closer to 300-400. HUGE difference. The speed advantage in this situation is with the AB Harpy. He can easily dictate range within scram/web range. Dictating range is what it's all about. I do prefer MWD over AB is probably 95% of my fits. Probably more really. If I know I'll be facing other MWD fitted kiting ships, crows and such, then I'd stick an MWD on there to compete in dictating range. It's all circumstantial. Adapt and overcome. Not everything is absolute.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Karrade Krise I do prefer MWD over AB is probably 95% of my fits. Probably more really. If I know I'll be facing other MWD fitted kiting ships, crows and such, then I'd stick an MWD on there to compete in dictating range. It's all circumstantial. Adapt and overcome. Not everything is absolute. Assume everybody else has an MWD and yes, AB loses its place. Again, in the great majority of the situations, its always the MWD. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Karrade Krise B. This helps you "sig" tank larger ships. If you're in web range, you're right where you need to be. Certain ship setup specifically to do this could work with both MWD and AB fitted. Granted it would have to gimp other mods in order to do it, but if it excells at what it's meant to, would it be a comedy killmail? AB and MWD is just fine, the comedy killmail comes from fitting an AB instead of a MWD. The only downside to this plan is there really aren't very many ships that have the ability to fit both of them *and* a reason to get within AB range at all. Quote: Mwd Harpy will go maybe 100-150ms or so when scrammed and webbed. AB Harpy will go closer to 300-400. HUGE difference. The speed advantage in this situation is with the AB Harpy. He can easily dictate range within scram/web range. Dictating range is what it's all about. The problem here is to dictate range in that situation, you first have to dictate range to get there. Without a MWD, you can't, and you just get kited with zero transversal, and die helplessly.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The problem here is to dictate range in that situation, you first have to dictate range to get there. Without a MWD, you can't, and you just get kited with zero transversal, and die helplessly. Very valid points. However, not all ships are meant to kite. Close range ships, most AFs, a few 'ceptors, handful of cruisers, few hacs, couple of BCs, Blaster ships in general. There are many targets for AB fitted ships to go after as long as they have a good understanding of the likely fits they will face. AB fitted ships setup as tacklers can work hand in hand with MWD tacklers, MWD tackler arrives first, gets point and web to slow them down and hold them if possible, AB ship either warps to or AB's toward gangmate/target if it's feesible, and takes over the tackling role so that the MWD tackler can disengage if needed, either for another target to lock down or to run if it's getting killed. Just an example of gang work with AB ships.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Karrade Krise Very valid points. However, not all ships are meant to kite. Close range ships, most AFs, a few 'ceptors, handful of cruisers, few hacs, couple of BCs, Blaster ships in general. There are many targets for AB fitted ships to go after as long as they have a good understanding of the likely fits they will face. The problem is the pilots of these ships know it. Which means they're either fitting to deal with a frigate in a close orbit, or immediately warping out when a frigate shows up. Granted, there are always idiots who will die to that tactic, but you're in a pretty bad situation if you have to count on your target being an idiot to avoid dying. Quote: AB fitted ships setup as tacklers can work hand in hand with MWD tacklers, MWD tackler arrives first, gets point and web to slow them down and hold them if possible, AB ship either warps to or AB's toward gangmate/target if it's feesible, and takes over the tackling role so that the MWD tackler can disengage if needed, either for another target to lock down or to run if it's getting killed. Just an example of gang work with AB ships. The problem here is that if you're in a small enough gang for transversal to matter (who really cares about MWD or no MWD when you're shooting with 250km snipers), you're probably going to be better off bringing another dps ship instead of the AB tackler. I would much rather have a pair of Armageddons and a MWD 24km Crusader than a Megathron, a Crusader, and an AB AF. -----------
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:35:00 - [10] Blaster ships need an MWD. Unless PvP for you is sitting at the undock point or always getting the warp to 0 result for the blob you are in, you need one (and honestly at this point, what does it matter which ship you have. You could be in a Drake with a single Cruise Missile Launcher I and probably have the same success PvPing given big enough numbers). How can you expect to get into closest weapon system's range with the worst propulsion mod? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:21:00 - [11] If it's a big ship T1 or T2, MWD. If it's a small T1 ship, MWD. If it's a small T2 ship, AB or MWD (up to you, both work). With AB you need to be a in situation where you can choose the battlefield (aka. be in position). After that burning in and using a scram will basically disable the targets control over speed in the coming engagement. The tricky part with AB is that it's mostly a battle untill death. If the other one has a point or a scram, you won't get away when he has a MWD (unless he also wants to run). Stop whining.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:22:00 - [12] Karrade - why are you making such threads? Let people believe that AB fits are comedy killmail. I enjoy fighting MWD ships in my 2 point scram AB Ishkur. When I solo, I fit to win the fight and not to catch something and die horribly with my propulsion disabled. Turns to the crowd So people, nothing to see here. AB fits are horrible as well as 2 pt scrams. Always fit MWD's because the M stands for mandatory. Nothing changed with QR. Apart from that be aware that assault ships suck and you will kill my Ishkur in one volley. My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:24:00 - [13] AB is good for tanky hacs like ishtar that can orbit in web range. Your cap ship deserves CPR's!
Jaro Brutus La Isla del Mono	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:25:00 - [14] AB can have its uses depending on how you intend to fight.. Specially also in Low sec where there is no bubbles, certain AB fits are viable.
Lady Destruction Club Bear	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:59:00 - [15] Edited by: Lady Destruction on 27/01/2009 20:02:06 Originally by: H Lecter Karrade - why are you making such threads? Let people believe that AB fits are comedy killmail. I enjoy fighting MWD ships in my 2 point scram AB Ishkur. When I solo, I fit to win the fight and not to catch something and die horribly with my propulsion disabled. Turns to the crowd So people, nothing to see here. AB fits are horrible as well as 2 pt scrams. Always fit MWD's because the M stands for mandatory. Nothing changed with QR. Apart from that be aware that assault ships suck and you will kill my Ishkur in one volley. Oh, i see what you did there . Yeah guys, nothing to see here, bad post from bad poster, i guess he still camps gates like he used to in bl3h. P.S. o/ karrade, how are you?
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Lady Destruction Oh, i see what you did there . Yeah guys, nothing to see here, bad post from bad poster, i guess he still camps gates like he used to in bl3h. P.S. o/ karrade, how are you? Heh. I don't know what you're talking about! I havn't camped a gate in a real long time though. I'm currently deployed and the connection is just too crappy for real pvp. So I'm just...coughrunningmissionscough for isk while I'm away. So how are you doing? Long time no see. :D CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Lady Destruction Club Bear	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Karrade Krise Heh. I don't know what you're talking about! I havn't camped a gate in a real long time though. I'm currently deployed and the connection is just too crappy for real pvp. So I'm just...coughrunningmissionscough for isk while I'm away. So how are you doing? Long time no see. :D Well, i guess i could say that i do the same ingame . CCp has rly made things a lot harder for solo pvpers . But i never give up
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:25:00 - [18] Funny how peopel are weak minded. MY AB equiped scimitar works DOZENS times better than it would with MWD. Just an example The fewer the ships in the fight the most AB can be used effectively. Take any BS and I can solo it in a cyclone with AB. Is this a common scenario .. maybe not. But the thing to blame is not the AB but the players mentality. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kal Shakai Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Sokratesz AB is good for tanky hacs like ishtar that can orbit in web range. Bingo. The Sac is another great ship for this.
Henrik Mako	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Kal Shakai Originally by: Sokratesz AB is good for tanky hacs like ishtar that can orbit in web range. Bingo. The Sac is another great ship for this. Not that I don't agree but MWD still has its uses in situations like that. Mainly the ability to escape if things get out of control. Of course you'd have to break free from web/scram range, but once that's done, you have much better chances of escaping. Also since the Sac is often fitted with a scrambler, the MWD's faster approach speed can come in handy.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Henrik Mako Mainly the ability to escape if things get out of control. Of course you'd have to break free from web/scram range, but once that's done, you have much better chances of escaping. Good luck getting out of web/scram range when your mwd is shut off and you're webbed. You'd have to get pretty lucky or get some help from a friend if you're wanting to get away from a tackler fitted right. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Venduras	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:12:00 - [22] An AB would work as long as the enemy isn't kiting you with a 24km Disruptor. Some fits with ABs work very well due to reduced cap needs, fitting needs and signature radius. Granted, you won't speed to your target as fast and you may lose some targets if they see you ABing towards them or they might try to kite you, it can all happen. The most important thing is you WANT to fit it. Personally I would rather lose three Harpy AB fits and have one heck of a lot of fun with them than losing two Harpy fits that run circles around a target with a Disruptor and MWD doing half to no damage. If it works for you, use it, who cares what other people think if you have fun with it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:06:00 - [23] It's all about spheres of combat. You get 3 key 'zones' of control: 0-10km - web/scram range (if you're hit by one, you'll almost certainly be got by the other) 10-24km Warp disruptor range. 24km upwards. These zones are 'stretchy' thanks to faction and overheating - you aim to fight within 10km if you need to web, but you need to stay clear of 13km if you don't want to get webbed yourself. Now, the question of 'afterburner' or 'microwarp drive' is intrinsically linked to these zones of fighting - every ship has a range it works well. Some ships are more range flexible than others. It's that that drives the choice, because you're looking to maintain your stronger sphere, and keep them in their weaker. And it's the propulsion module that lets you do this. The question is a complicated one though - I mean, blaster ships _need_ to get close - typically to web/scram range. If they don't get there, then they lose the fight, pretty much regardless of what they're facing. So an AB blaster fit is a 'comedy failmail' because they're helpless against someone who's slightly faster on AB, or has a MWD. Autocannons or pulses though, not so much - as long as you can engage something in the second sphere - that of 24km - the fact that you cannot close up matters less - you either kill them, or they lose tackle and you warp. With 'long range' ships though, it becomes increasingly important that you are able to maintain that range - a Caracal, for example, is a terrible ship if you're not firing at extreme ranges. It's therefore quite important that you use a MWD, because range is your tank. Similarly so of anything 'sniperish'. Also, your likelyhood/thread of bubbles, must also factor into your decision - 0.0 skews towards the MWD for precisely the reason that getting caught in a bubble probably means you die. ABs have become more valuable than they were in QR. Especially in lowsec, there's some viable combat fits that use them, and take advantage of their strengths. But they're not automatic replacements for the mandatory MWD, in every situation. Consider how you're fighting, what ranges you can fight in, and what ranges you cannot. -- 249km locking?
Branmuffin Layne	Posted - 2009.01.28 06:34:00 - [24] IMHO AB's should be a lowslot module to fit into CCP's scheme of having lower powered versions of midslot items in lowslots. Such as signal boosters and Signal amps.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.01.28 06:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Branmuffin Layne IMHO AB's should be a lowslot module to fit into CCP's scheme of having lower powered versions of midslot items in lowslots. Such as signal boosters and Signal amps. And it should stack with a MWD!!!!!!!!!oneoneoneeleven Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down

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