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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
337
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Posted - 2012.04.20 18:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. Because they're still just players. If the scammer actually got to know his target(s), met them at a Fanfest, visited them, met families, went on golf outings, then I believe their resolve to pull the big scam would be greatly diminished. It could be argued that once a person has crossed that boundary from player into person, then scamming them might very well be psychopathic behaviour, no longer of the virtual variety.
This is a very blurry line with eve. You think how you ethics of your actions depends on how well you know someone.
While I would agree that a person shouldn't trust someone else until they know them, I do not think this is a good ethical line to draw.
I think the question is whether something is in game or out of game.
Let me give you an example:
1) Lets say I talk to you on vent and tell you I will not steal from you or your corp in eve.
Is that in game or out of game? I think its clearly out of game. It is an out of game promise about how I will behave in game. Yet this is often treated as if it is "part of the game" and therefore ok for me to break that promise. I am not necessarily passing a judgment on people who do this but I myself would not do this.
Moreover, I guess I will admit that if I find out someone did this GÇ£in gameGÇ¥ I do tend to lose respect for them and not just their in game GÇ£character.GÇ¥
The problem is different views about what is GÇ£in gameGÇ¥ and what is an GÇ£out of gameGÇ¥ conversation about what will be done in game. What most people understand as an out of game promise to act a certain way is often construed by eve players as "just part of the game." This is why eve might have a bad reputation.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
337
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Posted - 2012.04.20 18:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference.  Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different?
Ah the poker analogy. In poker you are not actually talking to people and building thier trust so that you can betray them. You aren't really talking at all. When people are building trust in eve it is not role play of trust between characters. They are trying to build real trust with the real people behind the characters.
That is how it is different. Because people understand how this line is crossed differently within the game is why lots of people have different views about the ethics of those who play the game.
With respect to the eve advertisement - it would be more realistic if they had someone lying to other people on vent over a course of several months in order to take their ingame assets. It would also show him selling those assets buying enough plex to pay for his subscription for for a few years and then going ahead and canceling his subscription which used to be taken out of his bank account. It wouldn't sell eve very well but it would be more realistic of how those sorts of scams are done.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
338
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Posted - 2012.04.20 22:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Cearain wrote:Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different? Ah the poker analogy. In poker you are not actually talking to people and building thier trust so that you can betray them. You aren't really talking at all. When people are building trust in eve it is not role play of trust between characters. They are trying to build real trust with the real people behind the characters. That is how it is different. Because people understand how this line is crossed differently within the game is why lots of people have different views about the ethics of those who play the game. With respect to the eve advertisement - it would be more realistic if they had someone lying to other people on vent over a course of several months in order to take their ingame assets. It would also show him selling those assets buying enough plex to pay for his subscription for for a few years and then going ahead and canceling his subscription which used to be taken out of his bank account. It wouldn't sell eve very well but it would be more realistic of how those sorts of scams are done. Actually, in poker you are lying your ass off constantly... either through verbal misdirection or body language. You are trying your best, usually in very subtle ways, to convince the other playing that it's safe to bet a large sum on the outcome. It's called a bluff. Frankly, nobody forced the "mark" to spend a penny on his hobby. He knew full well he was spending cash to buy destructible/stealable in game items. As far as the EVE video spending more time to show details of HOW to build up the trust of the ruthless players that ganked you previously, and how to finance your EVE gaming entirely from the proceeds... they absolutely should have! Subscriptions would have gone through the roof. 
No you are not lying when you play poker. I mean you can lie and say "I have a bad hand stay in" when you have a great hand but that is just silly and not how most poker is played. Its not a game of betraying any trust at all. If for whatever reason the person really beleived those lies (due to age or lack of mental capacity) and you continued to do lie and take advantage of their trust you would be acting unethically. That is pretty much allot of eve lies and "scams."
LOL "the ruthless players that ganked you." See you are trying to suggest that players who are clearly playing the game are "ruthless players." When in fact blowing up other peoples spaceships in a game about blowing up other peoples spaceships does not at all suggest the player is ruthless. Perhaps the character he plays is ruthless but not the person playing it.
This is always the red herring I see people go for to avoid the ethical issues of building real trust between real people and then betraying it for personal gain. Yes that personal gain may be to save time or save a subscription fee or whatever but its a real personal gain not just an in game gain.
That said I will at least concede there could be a possible role play defense. And I will agree that its possible some people are not really bright enough to understand the difference between acting "in game" and "outside the game" as I explained above. I don't find their lack of wit culpable.
As for your thinking showing clips of people on vent gaining the trust of others in real life in order to lie to and betray them would be great marketing .... we will just have to agree to disagree on that. Younger people might like it, but as you get older you get enough of that in real life. From my perspective the idea of wanting more of that in a game is beyond stupid. Maybe my view is unusual because of the amount of it I have had to deal with in the past and currently. But I think it probably the same for allot of people who are older gamers.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
339
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Cearain wrote:
No you are not lying when you play poker. I mean you can lie and say "I have a bad hand stay in" when you have a great hand but that is just silly and not how most poker is played. Its not a game of betraying any trust at all.
If you don't think that Poker is fundamentally based on deception then all I can say is pull up a chair and let me deal you a hand, pardner
Your starting to change what I said slightly in order to try to blur the lines.
I would say poker is based on misdirection.
Its not based on betraying trust.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
339
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Here is an interesting blog that I think is relevant to this topic.
http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/living-a-lie-the-truth-behind-the-name/
It is about a someone who was drawn to eve due to the spying aspect of eve. I don't want to say more because she is a much better writer than I am and I would just botch it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
341
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Posted - 2012.04.21 20:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like. ...
Your constant leaning on poker as a game for deceiptful people makes me wonder if you think faking a pass in basketball is also decieptful.
Misdirection becomes unethical/deceiptful only when you know the party you are misdirecting trusts you. In poker, chess and basketball you know they are not trusting you. In eve they are trusting you. And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
342
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.
How do you know? Do you not think people who play this game, get to know eachother in real life?
Plus I think you have it reversed. I usually know very little about the character but instead talk to the people playing the character.
I have never been in vent were people were actually role playing their character. It is clearly a conversation with another real person. We don't even talk about eve allot of the time.
I hardly know anything about peoples characters unless I decide to read a role play blog about the character.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
342
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character. I trust you, so you can't cheat me ~
No you don't, so itGÇÖs fine. Anyway cheating is allowed, so there is no cheating.
I do think there is a gray area in eve. I'm not saying that everyone who deceived people over vent in this game are horrible people. But some are. And for some of them ripping off people who they got to trust them in eve is just being themselves.
ItGÇÖs not so much that I am surprised or horrified that someone got defrauded out of a few hundred dollars worth of internet space ships.
What I find surprising is how naive certain players are in thinking, that none of the lying for spaceship glory could be the result of people who are indeed just scumbags. Rotten people doing what comes naturally to them. You know, there are, in fact, ****** people in real life. And they can download eve just like you can. And they very well may enjoy being deceitful to people in relation to this game just like in every other aspect of their lives.
I also find it interesting how defensive people get.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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