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fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:18:00 - [1] Edited by: fkingfurious on 29/01/2009 15:19:16 As it stands Recons are a massively varied bunch. The Curse can't decide if it's a gang boat or just another solo ship. Sure TD's are sometimes a very useful form of EWAR, it nos/neut bonus becomes less relevant the more people become involved in a fight, and by extension are MOST effective in a 1v1 (I know, very rare). Opinions on the Pilgrim vary, but one thing EVERYONE agrees on is that it's crap in a gang. It is at least a very different beast to the Curse. It may or may not work as a solo sneaky killer (like I said, opinion varies, personally I think it's great) but at least it tries. The Huginn/Rapier. Well, the Huginn is a bit crap, but as a combat boat it does try to be better than Rapier. Better HP, more speed, more generous fitting, double damage bonuses. It doesn't follow that it actually WORKS as a combat boat, but again at least it tries. Arazu/Lachesis follow the same pattern. Lach has bigger numbers and dual damage bonuses but manages to fall flat on it's face in most situations. It can however make an exceptionally good fast tackler in gate camps. Armored buffered and remote sensor boosted it has considerably more stopping power than a lot of people give it credit for, and with RR support can be a pretty tough nut to crack. Which leads on to the Rook/Falcon debate. I don't give a crap what you think about Falcon's, but the simple fact is that The Rook is just a crappy version of a Falcon. Same slot layout and ECM bonuses as the Falcon, with a thoroughly unexctiing Kinetic damage bonus bolted on to the Recon skill. So to make the Rook good (and more importantly different to the Falcon) I propose the following changes: Change the slot layout to 6/8/2 with 5 launchers Give it a 25m/3 drone bay Change the Kinetic bonus to 5% RoF bonus Change the ECM Optimal bonus to 10% missile Velocity bonus In my head that changes the Rook from a crappy Falcon to a mid range small gang ECM/DPS support boat. 8 mids for any combination of ECM and tank mods you can think of. MWD, 4x Multi, Photon, Invuln, LSE for example. Alternaively 8 mids gives it as much scope for solo PvP as any shield tanking boat can possibly have. The drones and utility high give it the frigate point defense that ships seem to need these days and the velocity bonus gives it plenty of range with Heavies and enough to use HAM's outside web range. Anyways, just a thought. Would certainly give the ship far more potential than it has now and may be enough to give people a reason to fly one. Flame on
Grek Forto Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:28:00 - [2] I want a curse when I grow up. Seriously though. I like the Curse.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:32:00 - [3] Both the Rook and Lachesis could use a slight buff imho.
o0TuNa0o Idle Miners	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:33:00 - [4] Buff the Rook? It's one of the most underestimated ships in the game. What other ships can fight 3 others (even up to BS) and take it's time doing so? I'm saying no more... TuNa
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:35:00 - [5] Originally by: o0TuNa0o Buff the Rook? It's one of the most underestimated ships in the game. What other ships can fight 3 others (even up to BS) and take it's time doing so? I'm saying no more... TuNa Ah yes, the ever popular "Vague allusion to some mythical scenario with no detail or evidence". What exactly are you trying to say?
o0TuNa0o Idle Miners	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:36:00 - [6] Originally by: fkingfurious Edited by: fkingfurious on 29/01/2009 15:19:16 As it stands Recons are a massively varied bunch. The Curse can't decide if it's a gang boat or just another solo ship. Sure TD's are sometimes a very useful form of EWAR, it nos/neut bonus becomes less relevant the more people become involved in a fight, and by extension are MOST effective in a 1v1 (I know, very rare). Opinions on the Pilgrim vary, but one thing EVERYONE agrees on is that it's crap in a gang. It is at least a very different beast to the Curse. It may or may not work as a solo sneaky killer (like I said, opinion varies, personally I think it's great) but at least it tries. The Huginn/Rapier. Well, the Huginn is a bit crap, but as a combat boat it does try to be better than Rapier. Better HP, more speed, more generous fitting, double damage bonuses. It doesn't follow that it actually WORKS as a combat boat, but again at least it tries. Arazu/Lachesis follow the same pattern. Lach has bigger numbers and dual damage bonuses but manages to fall flat on it's face in most situations. It can however make an exceptionally good fast tackler in gate camps. Armored buffered and remote sensor boosted it has considerably more stopping power than a lot of people give it credit for, and with RR support can be a pretty tough nut to crack. Which leads on to the Rook/Falcon debate. I don't give a crap what you think about Falcon's, but the simple fact is that The Rook is just a crappy version of a Falcon. Same slot layout and ECM bonuses as the Falcon, with a thoroughly unexctiing Kinetic damage bonus bolted on to the Recon skill. So to make the Rook good (and more importantly different to the Falcon) I propose the following changes: Change the slot layout to 6/8/2 with 5 launchers Give it a 25m/3 drone bay Change the Kinetic bonus to 5% RoF bonus Change the ECM Optimal bonus to 10% missile Velocity bonus In my head that changes the Rook from a crappy Falcon to a mid range small gang ECM/DPS support boat. 8 mids for any combination of ECM and tank mods you can think of. MWD, 4x Multi, Photon, Invuln, LSE for example. Alternaively 8 mids gives it as much scope for solo PvP as any shield tanking boat can possibly have. The drones and utility high give it the frigate point defense that ships seem to need these days and the velocity bonus gives it plenty of range with Heavies and enough to use HAM's outside web range. Anyways, just a thought. Would certainly give the ship far more potential than it has now and may be enough to give people a reason to fly one. Flame on Change the slot layout? Lose the 3rd low, the third low which was added so u can plate your ship? erm... no way Giving it another launcher will make it overpowered imo. Sure it's not got great dps, but it's a recon and it's a recon which can perm jam multiple ships at a time. That's the trade off and I'm happy with it. TuNa
o0TuNa0o Idle Miners	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:43:00 - [7] Originally by: fkingfurious Originally by: o0TuNa0o Buff the Rook? It's one of the most underestimated ships in the game. What other ships can fight 3 others (even up to BS) and take it's time doing so? I'm saying no more... TuNa Ah yes, the ever popular "Vague allusion to some mythical scenario with no detail or evidence". What exactly are you trying to say? Been using ECM for nearly 3 years now. Way before the boosts and all this falcon business. I've got more than 50 solo kills in a Rook, and for a year I pretty much used nothing else in low sec. I checked your kills on BC but your not even listed. It's fine as it is. Hell, okay. It cannot even hit 200dps, Arazu for example can hit 250. But, no other recon can fight 3 ships if needs be. Or can escape if needed. Do you not agree this is a decent trade off? TuNa
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:58:00 - [8] I never suggested giving it another launcher slot, I specifically said it would gain a utility high, and while I don't doubt that some people may have some sucess with this ship in general it I think it needs some kind of change.You have to agree that in order to use it's launchers it has to be close enough to it's target that it's ECM optimal bonus becomes useless.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:00:00 - [9] Why is the Rook a crappy Falcon? It gets the same ECM stats and has more EHP. The only thing you sacrifice is a covert ops cloak, just like all of that recon subtype.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:07:00 - [10] Be nice if it was more of a combat ship, bit more punching power at the expense of less jamming range.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Why is the Rook a crappy Falcon? It gets the same ECM stats and has more EHP. The only thing you sacrifice is a covert ops cloak, just like all of that recon subtype. And unlike all the other recon subtypes it gains essentially nothing over the Falcon. At the 100-200KM bracket that a Falcon/Rook want to operate as a gang jammer EHP is irrelevant. So is DPS. In fact the only things that matter are the ability to get into position and get out again if it all goes belly up. Given that the Falcon does this perfectly there is no point even attempting to make a Rook better in this area. If we accept that for long range jamming you want a Falcon and then start looking at other closer rnage options for the Rook you soon realise the ship COULD have huge possibilities. In it's current incarnation though nothing the ship does HELPS it to fill a different role to a Falcon.
o0TuNa0o Idle Miners	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:12:00 - [12] Originally by: fkingfurious I never suggested giving it another launcher slot, I specifically said it would gain a utility high, and while I don't doubt that some people may have some sucess with this ship in general it I think it needs some kind of change.You have to agree that in order to use it's launchers it has to be close enough to it's target that it's ECM optimal bonus becomes useless. You suggest losing a 3rd low, the low which made the falcon\Rook a lot more survivable (i.e a 800 RT plate), in favour of a utility high. Why does it need a utility slot then? The optimal bonus is wasted in solo pvp, ture. But then it's not meant to be a solo ship in all honesty. It's meant to be a gang ship, a gang ship that unlike the Falcon, does not have to use 1 rig slot for an optimal rig. If anything was to change regarding this ship, it could do with a 'bit' more dps. Maybe inline with the Arazu (anther great little ship). With so many other ships in dire need of changes, I fail to see the need to change a ship which is fine in both it's normal role and an improvised solo pvp role. TuNa
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 29/01/2009 16:31:15 The Rook can be fun. I have used this: [Rook, AML] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II Ballistic Control System II 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Particle Dispersion Augmentor I Warhead Flare Catalyst I Its some time since i used it, but I managed to get a few kills in it, but I made it as a sort of anti frig support ship in gangs. It has a bit lacking grid to get HML or HAMS on tho, and thats a downside (unless you use one slot for a cloak). But really, I rather use a curse or the falcon :S.
Spartan dax Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:39:00 - [14] It would be nice if it was less bipolar. Having Heavy missiles on a ship that's meant to operate at 150k+ ranges is kinda like getting a bonus for smartbombs on a fleetsniper with an optimal bonus. One of the bonuses either won't be used or will be used because you did something wrong. I'd like the kin bonus extended to HAM's as well and maybe a 5% shield resists/lvl instead of the ECM optimal one. I could just eat that ship with a spoon. Add in a 20 m3 dronebay, 25 more PG and slightly faster locking in exchange for that long locking range. Overpowered much?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:40:00 - [15] I wouldn't mind seeing the rook get more DPS tossed on if it gets the range bonus removed, though TBH I think the only ship that should be getting a range bonus to ECM is the scorp.
achoura	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:56:00 - [16] It has nothing over the falcon because the falcon was graced with a slot change which and fool could see made the rook obsolete. People protested at the time, but ccp did it anyway giving you no reason at all to pick it ovre the falcon. I used to run from these things all the time, now ive onyl seen 4 in the past 12 months, for a good reason *The EVE servers and their patches*
Vrikshaka 0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:58:00 - [17] I agree, currently there's not much reason to use the Rook over the Falcon. The Rook should be significantly stronger than the Falcon, given that the Falcon gets the cloak. Just like with the Curse/Pilgrim, as you point out. Answer = nerf the Falcon. Then, boost the Scorp so that it's not made completely obsolete by the Falcon/Rook.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:59:00 - [18] DON'T TOUCH MY ROOK. 3rd low slot is very much so needed. While I'd love a missile velocity bonus - I'll live without. If you're flying it like a falcon you're doing it wrong. Use it as an anti-falcon/sniper ship. Who ever said a PLATE on an ECM recon is wasting a crucial ECM enhancement mod for a meaningless HP boost. 5x Heavy II Y-T Overcharged 10MN MWD ECCM 4x Racial Jams Large Shield Extender 3x Signal Distrotion Amp II 2x Missile Velocity rigs Chase down Falcons/snipers. ECCM + high sensor strength make you a pain to be jammed (need at least 2x grav ECM to stand a reasonable chance to jam). MWD into range of missiles (~110 km) and fire away. Shield Extender gives you a chance to warp out if snipers/drones are firing on you.

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