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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:33:00 -
[1]
What's good about introducing delayed local with w-space is exactly because it's not regular 0.0.
It's a matter of psychology. Every time you change something that's already there (e.g. instant local in 0.0) there is outrage by people who are used to how things are and will whine about any change.
But introduce it with a new feature - in this case w-space - old stuff (the known eve cluster) remains unchanged. It's easier to accept when it's just one new facet of a new featureset - instead of opening the can of worms that you get when you introduce it into what people already know.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:08:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Tzar'rim
You can talk all you want but it still stands; if you lose the main way of interacting with unknown players you fall into some sort of autistic gameplay; everyone in their own little box of friends and no interaction at all.
That paragraph makes no sense at all.
It was already explained to you that local still works for chatting. You can initiate convos all you like. Besides corp, alliance, public channels and voice services all will still work - so how did you cook up that autistic scenario above?
The low sec mining op doesn't chat via local - they use gang chat. The incoming pirate doesn't chat in local until *after* the kill when he brags about it.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
You are very much mistaken. I want "delayed" local (you see - it's still there - just doesn't show people until they start convo - which they still can do any time they want) even though I never ganked innocents (hey - WT ain't innocents :-) ) at gate and have no intention of ever going pirate.
I want danger. I want interesting. I want challenging.
Delayed Local (you don't appear in list until you write in local) improves challenging for *everybody*.
The very same feature that helps the ganker also helps the potential gankee. :-)
Sure - innocent little mining/ratting/missioning op doesn't see ebil bunch of pirates appear in system - unless they have scouts doing probes.
But at the same time pirates can't just roam through 20 systems quickly and check within a second if there are potential targets in system. They have to put in a bit of effort too - send scouts around, make guesses about what systems are more likely to have targets. They'll roam less systems in a given timeframe - which - if you happen to be in a nice off-the-beaten-path system means you'll be safer for longer than you were before (though *feeling* less safe at the same time - good thing).
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Even better if that means that effort is rewarded over being passive. Still, simply removing it and going "there, that's done" is the wrong way to do it and I haven't come up, or read a realistic, reasonable and intelligent idea on how to change local without the downsides.
Ahem - that debate happened couple years ago - and never quite stopped. Some of it even realistic and reasonable. |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Zeba
However mining in w-space is going to be harder than 0.0 due to the ai enabled rats that will avoid the standard bs tankers and commence to popping your mining ships left and right.
Question: Is this something you know for a fact, or just another assumption on your behalf? This thread sadly contains too much of the latter.
We don't know how much "harder" they'll be. But we know from devblog that officer spawns in eve-space and Seeker npcs in w-space are supposed to get new and improved AI. I assume the idea behind giving them AI is not to make them behave as simplistic as usual npcs - otherwise there would be no point. So whether they turn out to be real hard or not - it's safe to assume that they are supposed to be tough.
*If* that includes switching targets - or making more reasonable target selections in the first place - then - yes - mining would get harder. Potentialy *a lot* harder.
Standard practice for mining ops in 0.0 has been for years to send in well-tanking BS/Carrier in first and collect all aggro (not killing rats so they don't respawn).
Classic rats don't change targets usually - so next come in the 6 barges and strip the ark belt for hours while the deadly flotilla of rat npcs keeps shooting uselessly at the tank they'll never break.
Even the slightest change in that predictable behaviour would change all 0.0 mining. Notice that in eve-space only officer spawns are going to get AI for now - so most 0.0 mining can go on unchanged.
With even slightly less predictable rats hauler and barges would be fitted a bit differently and a mining op would need more firepower to fight off rats in time before they wipe out all barges.
One fact that too many in empire don't know - there is nothing more carebearish than mining within core of alliance territory. You get plenty warning before invaders cross border systems. The rats never target you. The macros didn't wipe the belt days ago. No random low sec gankers to threaten your mining op. No war declaration bothering you at all. You can have more risk for less value mining in high sec empire than in well run alliance space.
Core alliance space *is* high sec if your alliance territory is big enough.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.03 18:10:00 -
[4]
Prism X - I'm glad that you have such an instinctive dislike of anything that smells of instancing. I hate instances with a vengeance and when I first heard about WH I feared that this might be EVEs version of them. After reading the devblogs I'm happy to see that's not the case.
But I don't see what a delayed local channel in W-space has to do with instancing?
W-space is already a bit different. Not on the map. No gates. New feature. This is perfect for a first foray into changed local mechanics. And they are supposed to be isolated - a place to boldly go where only Seekers have gone before?
I understand the fears about lack of local making EVE feel less like a MMOG. But that fear seems to me exaggerated.
In high density empire systems there is constant traffic at the gate and near stations. And belts are also rarely empty. Besides this thread was about restricting the change to W-space - and possibly expanding later to 0.0.
So empire has better gates/more comm-sats/whatever snd therefore instant-local.
Outside of empire a more isolated feeling would be welcome IMHO.
I remember fondly the days when 0.0 didn't have Outposts around every corner, no conquerable stations and no jump routes connecting the rim regions. It felt wild. That feeling is much diminished now.
Chat itself happens mostly within corp and alliance channels anyway. Add gang, sec-channels and public corp channel and any number of specialty channels (recruit, trade, etc) and I have a constant barrage of communications in at least 4 channels - sometimes twice as many.
I'd love to see something similar to submarine scanning.
Also I like the idea mentioned earlier in the thread about active scans alerting everybody in range.
To summarize some ideas:
* Local is a comm channel - pilots get listed automatically in empire (plus 0.0 for now - to be reviewed later), but is delayed (until you start chat) in W-space. Not because it's instanced - but because gates and other sensor infrastructure are missing
* Limit the onboard scanner to 1m km or so. You only get details info at this short range. Roughly a planet and its moons and belts.
* Distinguish between active and passive scans
* All ships within a grid get a combined "fleet signature" (a simple sum of a mass/power signature per ship)
* you need to be closer and/or have more precise probes the smaller the fleet-sig. Individual small ships could slip through and you get the potential for less blobbing.
* Provide an active system scan module - this needs at least a mid slot and some cap. While activated it will provide periodic results of fleet-sig and distance. Being an active system it also alerts anybody within range. Range is only a few AU or less.
Damn - thinking about it I'm afraid the "active scan alerts all within range" idea might mean too much network traffic. But perhaps ok if the scanners have an interval of a minute or so. And they don't provide exact ship/POS infos - just rough fleet-sigs. And the active scan/probe alert is just that - a simple there was a ping info.
For system wide scanning you need probes.
The situation could be further improved (at a later date) by getting rid of fixed belts.
If roid fields were not in fixed positions but would have to be scouted (and respawn at another position after being stripped - or max time runs out - roids moved apart) - not only can we say bye bye to macro miners - but gankers need to scout first too - just like the miners/ratters before them.
Explanation: Finding the belt is easy - but valuable (includes veldspar) roids are not the norm and have to be explored for. The rest of the roids that make a belt are assumed to be low grade trash matter - not worth mining/refining. We already have to assume this for immersion as belts are shown as small roid fields already. |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
All nice, then you pick miners and rattes and stick a big target here on them in the belts.
Removing local without removing warpable belts is giving a enormous advantage to the hunters, piled up on the other advantages they already have (impossibility to protect a mining barge, rats fixing on the ratters and so on).
Let's put aside for a second that I'm all for roid fields getting moved into exploration and no longer being in fixed positions.
I never understood why people think that only gankers profit from nerfed local. That is IMHO based on assumptions that are not true. The assumptions is that finding victims takes 0 time. The same nerfed local that hides incoming pirates from the poor miners would also hide the miners from the ebil ganking pirates.
As things are now pirates can roam quickly through 20 systems and insta-check on jump in if there are likely targets to find in belts. If not warp through and check next system.
Having to check 8 or 16 belts takes time. Therefore less systems will be roamed per hour by pirates. Or the pirates split up into individual scouts and try to find victims before re-assembling the gang for attack.
At the same time even with local gone miners can post a scout at gate to see if hostiles come in.
To avoid misunderstandings: I'm much more likely to be on the ratting/mining side of things rather than being an attacker. I never went pirate and have 0 intentions of ever doing so. They only time I would ever attack a ratting/mining gang is when we're at war with their corp/alliance. And even then it wouldn't be my prefered way of pvp.
I just believe that less free info makes the tactics more varied and interesting. Mining is pretty safe. Belt rats can either be easily tanked by Barges (all high and a lot of low sec) or perma-tanked by a single BS that first collects the aggro (all the rest).
Gankers bring some risk to mining - which makes it more interesting. But if unknowns in local mean insta-warp out this is still just annoying - no need for tactics or protection or outthinking the opposition.
I want a bit of challenge.
I'm all for changing scanning to keep things balanced and interesting.
Nerf local and replace it with some tools and effort.
And yes - make roid fields something to be explored for. Fairly simple and quick to find though. Don't want miners getting frustrated because they have to explore hours for every batch of roids.
Brainstorm:
* Remove Asteroid belts from menu.
* Instead have a number of roid field slots per system in proportion to former belts.
* The roid field looses 10% of roids per day (damn things drift apart).
* After 10 days replace with a new field at another location
* It shouldn't take longer than a couple minutes or so to find such fields.
* Barges & Orcas get a bonus to find these roid fields.
* Noobs get BMs from agents to high sec roid locations.
* Also scouts can sell good roid field BMs.
* Have a small chance of fields having roids of 1-3 sec ratings better than usual. (a rare field of Dark Ochre in 0.5?)
* Say bye bye to marcros :-)
And with that while a mining gang would not see the gankers jumping into system - the gankers wouldn't know if miners are present and would need to invest some effort to find any. Both groups wouldn't know right away if somebody else is around and that also means that the gankers don't know about anti-pirates roaming around either.
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Save the forum: Think before you post.
ISK BUYER = LOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
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