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training learning skills past IV - NOT worth it., read on...

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.04 19:38:00 - [61] ITT : lots of people (OP included) not understanding the definition of "PAYOFF POINT". _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Jeran Tek Real Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:27:00 - [62] The problem is that people aren't listening. Goodness. On an internet foum and everything. No-one's even commented on my alt "Flincheys Response" who demonstrates that within the next month I will have more useful skillpoints from having trained Clarity 5 than if I had left it at 4 and I'm almost 1mil SPs better off than I would have been if I'd not trained any of the learning skills past 4. There are 3 definitions of Payoff time. All have some validity. 1) After subtracting out SPs in learning from both of us when do I have more than my buddy who didn't go as far as I did? 2) As above but I've now spent 3 years worse off than him. I only get my payoff when I've been better off than him for a similar period. 3) I've trained everything I need to on this character. A new skillset comes out and I want to train for that. My L5s are paying off RIGHT NOW. I might have more total "useful" SPs if I hadn't trained learning to 5 but most of those SPs are in BS5 or Wing Command 5 or some-such that I'm not using ay more. How "useful" are they really?? The OP and I subscribe to definition 1. Pottsey subscribes to definition 3. It's going to make it hard to discuss things if you can't even decide on a definition for the words you're using.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:15:00 - [63] Most people use definition #1. In extreme cases of cynicism, you might use definition #2. Pottsey is only using definition #3 because the character played is already quite maxed-out in anything it might need. NO MATTER what definition you use, you DO eventually reach a "payoff point" by skilling up to L5 in learnings, different for each learning skill and every skill plan attribute breakdown. The only question is : WILL YOU PLAY THAT LONG ? I am almost completely certain will still be playing 1 year from now, but I am not that sure about 3-4 years down the road. Therefore, for me, all basic learnings to L5 make sense, while all advanced learnings to L5 not so much... some advanced learnings (perception mainly), almost make sense, if I don't radically alter my skillplan for the upcoming year (which is also unlikely, I seldom stick for more than half a year to certain type of skillplan). For people that DO have any idea of what they want to train, and the longer they can keep to that specific plan (or at least the TYPE of skills trained), it's just a matter of deciding how likely it is they will keep playing half a year, one year, one year and a half, three years and more than four years from now, then combine all of it in a "worth it / not worth it" estimation. IF THAT IS WHAT THE OP WANTED TO SAY, he did a poor job at conveying it, and he also makes the assumption people can't possibly plan to keep playing indefinitely (since his conclusion is that "those skills are not worth it"). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:29:00 - [64] I agree not all players fit into my situation. I just have a problem with the people who say my situation never happens and you're never better off with adv5.
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:43:00 - [65] Edited by: Vikura on 05/02/2009 00:44:24 Originally by: Pottsey I still don't agree and I don't agree with how you work out payoff. In one year I gain 17ish days more skills that I would not have with adv4. That fact alone means adv5 has pied off. With IV I lose the skills I need and gain skills I don't need. So V has paid off as I end up with better skills. You keep saying that it is paying off for you already, yet you don't say how long it's since you started the skill training(s) to 5 and is your skill plan 1 year from this day before you see the 17ish days more skills? And i don't know how you value a "pay off"... for me it's from the time i start to train a learning skill to level X (in this case advanced to 5) to the time it actually gives more sp than i could have got if i started training my skill plan instead of the learning to level 5. In programming the above would be: If TimeForLearningFrom4To5 + TimeForSkillPlanWithThe5Learning < TimeForSkillPlanWithLearning4 Then payoff = True End Madmaths: Adv Learning from 4 to 5 takes 632 235 SP per skill. Lets say we have character with 24.00 primary 24.00 secondary (including the +10% from learning), which gives us a 2160 SP/hour. Adv Learning from 4 to 5 takes 292 hours 292.701 hours = ~632 235 SP (close enough) 1 Primary attribute more = 66 SP/hour For that 66 SP / hour to give us our SP "back" in the learning skill we need 9580 hours So to "catch" in the skill plan we need 9580 + 292.701 hour skill plan. 9872.701 hours with 24/24 stats = 21 325 034 SP 9580 hours with 25.1/24 stats = 21 325 080 SP 9872 hours = 411 days = 1 year, 1 month, 2 weeks and 2 days. After this point you'll "out run" people with only lvl 4 in the learning skill, by 66 SP / hour. Scoring 578 160 SP per year more than someone with the lvl 4 skill. Note; All of the above is just for 1 primay skill from 4 to 5. For a secondary just double the time and i believe it wouldn't be too far from the truth. (So 3 years, 4 months 2 weeks and 6 days of nonstop training with the primary/secondary before you "catch" 1 year = ~365 days = 8760 hours = 867 240 extra SP from training primary and secondary advanced skill from 4 to 5.)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.05 05:05:00 - [66] Originally by: Akita T ITT : lots of people (OP included) not understanding the definition of "PAYOFF POINT". I tried to explain it but I guess I failed really bad.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.05 08:03:00 - [67] Vikura said "And i don't know how you value a "pay off"... for me it's from the time i start to train a learning skill to level X (in this case advanced to 5) to the time it actually gives more sp than i could have got if i started training my skill plan instead of the learning to level 5." I don't do that as it doesn't work for me. I define payoff at the point when adv5 gives me more skillpoints I need over IV. The point when I end up with more skills I need due to adv5 over adv4 is the point when payoff have achieved. payoff is the point you end up with more useful skill points due to adv5. Your definition doesn't work for players like me as it says we are worse off when we are really much better off due to adv5. Vikura said "You keep saying that it is paying off for you already, yet you don't say how long it's since you started the skill training(s) to 5 and is your skill plan 1 year from this day before you see the 17ish days more skills?" I trained them when they first came out so what 3+ years ago? But it doesn't matter that it was that long ago. After far less than 1 year they had paid off for me. If I started that skill plan today then it ends 17 ish days faster than if I had adv4. So adv5 has paid off as I got the skills I need 17days faster. I have gained 15 to 17days ish days worth of skills a year since adv5 skills have came out. That's a lot of skills to gain over 3 years. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.05 08:07:00 - [68] Edited by: Pottsey on 05/02/2009 08:09:14 Vikura said " After this point you'll "out run" people with only lvl 4 in the learning skill, by 66 SP / hour. Scoring 578 160 SP per year more than someone with the lvl 4 skill." As I said before that doesn't always work. If I had IV I lose months worth of skills. With IV I am playing catch up to where I am now from day one falling further and further behind for 3+ years. If there are two copies of me one with adv5 and one with adv4 both doing the same skill plan I followed in game then the adv5 copy of me would outrun the adv4 from pretty much from day 1. IV would forever play catch-up and falling further and further behind. Or another way to put it. After 3 years the adv5 copy of me hasn't just caught up with adv4. After 3 years the adv5 copy is months ahead in the skill plan that matters. That means I must have hit payoff a long time before 3 years if I am already months ahead at that time. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Flinchey Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Pottsey Flinchey said "the last few posts are becoming alot more balanced and sensible in viewpoint. instead of the butthurt 'omgitrainedmyskillsto5soITAREHASTOBEWORHTIT!!!ONEONEONE'" I noticed you didn't respond to any of my points. Does that mean your admit being wrong and that adv5 can be worth it in less than 2 years? Or have you just given up as you know you are wrong. I proved you wrong by posting a skill plan that's faster with adv5 and you just ignored it. potts.. no... read the thread title you posted a skill plan where maybe 1 adv V would pay off post me a short skill plan where all learning skills to V, as a LOT of people in this thread alone have trained, will be more effective, and realize how incredibly long that takes.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:16:00 - [70] I did train all learning skills to V. Even with training all to V that skill plan was 17ish days faster than if I had IV. It not incredibly long in my situation. IV is the one that takes longer to do the plan.

Valrandir Gallente Blood Inquisition Legion of Honor	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:10:00 - [71] Originally by: Flinchey Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 17:13:25 Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 17:12:26 Originally by: Valrandir Trained all of them to V years ago when they came out. It's worth it. no it isn't... if you trained them up the day the game was released (yes i know the skills weren't even in game) so 5.5 years now (1864 days) ok: i made a skill plan involving a mix of leadersship/corp management, industry, gunnery, spaceship command, etc. basically a balance of all 5 attributes in both primary and secondary positions. 1880 days of skills. focus III required. no more. (willpower) presence is not required AT ALL (charisma) 2200 days of skills, EVERY SINGLE WILLPOWER PRIMARY SKILL TO V, every single leadership/corp management skill. (char primary in general) Focus V required presence IV required EDIT: oh, and you save 200d but if you did presence to V... thats completely negated :D and for the 5 year plan? same deal if you did focus...you're still paying it off most likely (and if you're not paying off focus, you'll certainly still be paying off one of your other learning skills still) after 5 years. its PROBABLY STILL NOT WORTH IT (i haven't tested for all primary/secondary % combinations) so i dont want to 'generalize' i suuppose would be the most appropriate term.safe bet is, after 5 years, you're still not in the green overall with all learning skills to V. How about after 10 years? Then after 15 years? This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:29:00 - [72] Edited by: Vikura on 05/02/2009 18:36:02 Originally by: Pottsey If I started that skill plan today then it ends 17 ish days faster than if I had adv4. So adv5 has paid off as I got the skills I need 17days faster. And this is your problem. You compare lvl 5 vs. lvl 4. Ofcourse you get more from the skill plan with more attributes vs. less attributes. You totally ignore how far in that skill plan you would be with lvl 4 IF you started doing the plan instead of the learning to 5. edit: and small note. To get that 17 days away from your plan, you had to wait minium of 24+ days for the primary/secondary learnings to get to lvl5 before starting the plan.
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:51:00 - [73] Edited by: Vikura on 05/02/2009 18:52:39 Here (filefront) is .xml file for Evemon, a character with 5/4 Learnings (no charisma) with set of +3 implants (no charisma). Feel free to play around with the plans and see how long skill plan you can. Best i managed was a 680 day plan before 1 (ONE) advanced learning from 4 to 5 would speed it up. edit: The forums mess up the filefront link, so here it is, for copy past: http://files.filefront.com/5+4+Learningsxml/;13211146;/fileinfo.html
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.05 20:13:00 - [74] Vikura said "You compare lvl 5 vs. lvl 4. Ofcourse you get more from the skill plan with more attributes vs. less attributes. You totally ignore how far in that skill plan you would be with lvl 4 IF you started doing the plan instead of the learning to 5." Considering how it was impossible to start that plan before I got adv5 I don't see how that is a problem or a factor. I am not ignoring it. Starting the plan as fast as possible with adv4 still makes adv4 take much longer to finish the plan. Vikura said "How far in that skill plan you would be with lvl4 at the time your lvl5 learnings finish?" How far would the plan be? Zero as I couldn't start until after lvl 5 learning finished. Like I said I got learning adv5 a long time ago. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:29:00 - [75] Edited by: Vikura on 05/02/2009 22:38:52 Originally by: Pottsey How far would the plan be? Zero as I couldn't start until after lvl 5 learning finished. Like I said I got learning adv5 a long time ago. Still, you used 12+ days per attribute to get the learning to level 5 (24+ assuming that plan haves only 2 attributes used). And you get this plan of yours 17 days faster done than with lvl 4 learnings. How is that a "pay off"? And as i've understood, you had "everything" you wanted trained already on your character before you trained the advanced learnings, so it was choise between training nothing(or "useless" stuff you didn't want) or learnings for the future, right? - In a such a case, you shouldn't be posting making smartass comments around correcting people that it do payoff the time used to train it before 3 years for primary/secondary attribute. You had nothing else to train, no plan no nothing, so you "lost nothing" by training them. Ps. Maths don't lie, people do.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:46:00 - [76] Edited by: Pottsey on 06/02/2009 07:53:52 Vikura said "Still, you used 12+ days per attribute to get the learning to level 5 (24+ assuming that plan haves only 2 attributes used). And you get this plan of yours 17 days faster done than with lvl 4 learnings. How is that a "pay off"?" Its pay off as I end up with more skills I need making me better at what I do in game. With IV I end up with overall less useful skills. Vikura said "- In a such a case, you shouldn't be posting making smartass comments around correcting people that it do payoff the time used to train it before 3 years for primary/secondary attribute. You had nothing else to train, no plan no nothing, so you "lost nothing" by training them." It's not a smartass comment it applies to lots of people as it happens all the time sometimes it happens even when you did have something left to train. If I am told it can never happen and it did happen then pointing that out is not a smartass comment. If training adv5 gives you more skills you need after two years then if you had adv4 then adv5 has paid off. Lots of people get a sudden massive change to their skill plan that was unplanned and full of skills they wouldn't have trained instead of adv5. If they then spend a year or two on that plan then they are better off with adv5 and it pied off. Some examples. People heard of cap ships got adv5 then spent two years training cap ship type skills. After two years adv5 has more then paid off and been worth it. Someone gets maxed out mining skills, gets adv5 then spends 1+ year training skills they didn't know they need for T3 and T3 skills them self. Again after one year adv5 has pied off. Or they get new mining skills if more come out. Pilots gets adv5 and maxes out as a cargo pilot. 6 months down the line he turns into a combat pilot so spends a year+ training turret skills. Again adv5 pied off as he got his new profession faster and ended up with more useful skill points and he didn't know he would need turrets so didn't train them intread of adv5. The pilot cannot afford the skills left in his plan, he gets adv5 skills while earning isk then trains those skills faster once he can afford them. adv5 skills let you adapt faster to new unexpected or even expected changes and that to me should factor into payoff and if they are worth it or not. Sometimes you have a new skill plan that overrides the old plan so again adv5 can mean after 1 or 2 years you ended up with better skillpoints. Vikura said "Ps. Maths don't lie, people do." Maths might not lie but maths can mislead you and falsely show adv5 learning skills as not worth it when clearly for some people they are more than worth it in 2 years or less. I never lied either. Like I said before payoff to me is when you have more useful skills due to adv5 over if you had adv4. I dont see anything wrong with that definition and I did say not everyone falls into my situation. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
ResearchBunny Beatrix	Posted - 2009.02.06 11:37:00 - [77] Edited by: ResearchBunny Beatrix on 06/02/2009 11:37:33 ITT: maths meets EVE, maths lose due to playerbase stupidity. Carry on.
Drykor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.06 11:49:00 - [78] All I know is, I made a plan to see when all advanced 5 skills would start paying off and based on that I trained perception and intelligence to advanced 5 and left the others at 4. They have already paid off or are close to it (not entirely sure) and I did it fairly late in my eve life.
Emroth Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Nequrian I have all learning skills at 5 and implats +5 and I don't care it :P QFT. Level V skills looks better on the skillmenu than IV. Drones... drones...drones!
Soren PAK	Posted - 2009.02.07 02:44:00 - [80] I've had lvl 5 learning skills for 3 years (or close to?).. So was it worth it for me? Yes.

Rat Scout Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.02.07 11:34:00 - [81] I do not have advanced learning skills lvl 5. I had to train basic to 5 pre RmR. with that in mind OP, Your math and logic is flawless. However, your point of view is just that. A point of view. For some people training an extra 20 days for each advanced skill (or whatever long lvl 5 takes) is a part of their character. If someone chooses to train them to lvl 5, it's probably because in their mindset, they know that when the time comes to train BS 5 it will go as fast as possible for them at that given moment. It's a freaky version of instant gratification, and that's the best way I can describe it. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quixis	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:35:00 - [82] You'll never win an argument with the OP, he's clearly not on our planet. With his logic, you could actually say, training no learning skills would be the best route to take.
Drahcir Nasom Independent Manufacturers	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:04:00 - [83] Edited by: Drahcir Nasom on 07/02/2009 13:08:37 Well, I finished training my Advanced Learning skills to lvl 5 on April 9 2005 (1400 days ago) and I think they were definitely worth doing, I'm 4th on the total SP list on InEve and 1st on the number of skills @ lvl 5 list. Oh, and I'm about as far from a "specialist" as you can get.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:12:00 - [84] Like I've said in other threads on this topic I bought and maxed the learning skills as soon as they were seeded. I was told back then it wasn't worth it and PPL still say it now. There are 3 groups of ppl that make comments about learning skills and whether to max them or not. 1. PPL like Pottsey who think they are great. 2. PPL who think they are a waste of time training beyond level 4. 3. PPL who say they are unfair and means newer players are at a disadvantage. Some even quote some vague comment that a Dev made and seem to think that CCP as a whole wish they never had been made. The point is just do what you want and remember as has been proved by countless threads on this topic that you will never change PPL's minds on this topic no matter how much logic or argument you use to make your point come across.
Tanaross	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:11:00 - [85] Originally by: Nequrian I have all learning skills at 5 and implats +5 and I don't care it :P I hear you, me too (still working on my last +5 implants...) Pride and honour have killed millions. How many have they saved?
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.08 08:19:00 - [86] Originally by: ResearchBunny Beatrix Edited by: ResearchBunny Beatrix on 06/02/2009 11:37:33 ITT: maths meets EVE, maths lose due to playerbase stupidity. Carry on. i lol'd Originally by: Soren I've had lvl 5 learning skills for 3 years (or close to?).. So was it worth it for me? Yes. only two, maybe 3 of the level V advanced skills will have paid off mathematically so no. not yet actually, you're getting there though haha. Originally by: Rat Scout I do not have advanced learning skills lvl 5. I had to train basic to 5 pre RmR. with that in mind OP, Your math and logic is flawless. However, your point of view is just that. A point of view. For some people training an extra 20 days for each advanced skill (or whatever long lvl 5 takes) is a part of their character. If someone chooses to train them to lvl 5, it's probably because in their mindset, they know that when the time comes to train BS 5 it will go as fast as possible for them at that given moment. It's a freaky version of instant gratification, and that's the best way I can describe it. true that i prefer to look at it as a broad useful skillpoint perspective Originally by: Quixis You'll never win an argument with the OP, he's clearly not on our planet. With his logic, you could actually say, training no learning skills would be the best route to take. haha, you're either being sarcastic or haven't understood a word i've said
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:46:00 - [87] Flinchey said "haha, you're either being sarcastic or haven't understood a word i've said" I believe he did understand you. A lot of your first post has been proven completely wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you, you just ignore even if they post evidence your wrong. I believe that's why he said "You'll never win an argument with the OP, he's clearly not on our planet." The title of the thread is wrong, your conclusion of " the only. viable learning skill plan, is all to IV. no higher. it is NEVER. EVER. logically worth it. mathematically, over years, yes, but no. in a realistic sense, not." is completely wrong.
Drahcir Nasom Independent Manufacturers	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:44:00 - [88] Training all my advanced learning skills to 5 took me about 1461h 28m. I set a skill queue in EveHQ using a mixture of skills using different attributes totalling 365d12h. If I drop my attributes by 1 (by changing my +5s to +4s), that skill queue changes to 380d4h So, my extra attributes are saving me about 352h every year. 1461 / 352 = 4.15 years = 1516 days I finished training the skills 1401 days. So, in approximately 115 days time (give or take a couple of days), I will have broken even on training all those advanced learning skills to lvl 5. My current attributes with all learning skills at 5 and +5 implants are: Cha 23.1 Int 26.4 Mem 28.6 Per 25.3 Wil 22.0 Drahcir
DrWh0 Gallente Paxton Industries	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:22:00 - [89] Edited by: DrWh0 on 09/02/2009 07:22:10 Train the ALL to lvl 5 and dont bother about payback.....then be part of the all 5 club ...its a game...
Sanzorz Amarr Mark Of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.09 10:33:00 - [90] Edited by: Sanzorz on 09/02/2009 10:33:42 Despite math might be logical, then I ignore it. I went for learning skills to 5 rather fast when I started and those basic required lvl5 for the advanced back then. The only one I'm missing is Presence 5 (only at 4), because I don't use many charisma skills currently. I've played for about 2.5 years and using +5 implants. Even if the math say it's useless, then having these high attributes makes you feel faster at learning stuff in EVE, which imo is quite nice compared to having lower times with less stats. Several reasons I went for high learning. -Long playtime. Sure, noone can be certain if they are gonna play a game for long or barely at all, but I like to prepare ahead. -Pvp. People in 0.0 prolly don't fly around with +4 or +5 alot due to bubbles. Sure they can be avoided, but it's a totally other chance than lowsec. I prefer just to fly around with +3 when strolling around there. -No alts! It's totally different for players. Some prefer to keep with the math and others don't.



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