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Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:10:00 - [1] I am a carebear, and quite content to chewn on rocks and trade wirly-jigs hither and thither, until other peoples brains would ooze out their ears in an attempt to escape the tedium. I do however, have a long term objective in mind, and that is to own my very own bright shiny Nyx one day. While I am not terribly interested in missions, I do understand that missioning is the best way to increase ones standings, and thereby decrease ones expenses at npc stations. This is something I am interested in in the long term. Merging these two objectives, I am seeking input on what ships and weapons would be the most expedient to learn along the way to my Nyx. I am looking for the least amount of divergence from what will be useful in my mothership, while still being able to handle the storyline missions with relative ease. If you have arguments in favour of some other mothership, I welcome them, so long as you also address the issues above. I haven't invested sp anywhere outside of my mining and trading pursuits thus far, so I am not yet committed to any one path.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:34:00 - [2] Do you know how capital ships work? What do you plan to use it for?
Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:42:00 - [3] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Do you know how capital ships work? What do you plan to use it for? This is a video game. I am not going to "use" it for anything other than my own satisfaction/gratification. I already have my mining/trading to make isk. I am not interested in griefing. Helpful responses will be appreciated.
Arouu	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Lil Orphan I am a carebear, and quite content to chewn on rocks and trade wirly-jigs hither and thither, until other peoples brains would ooze out their ears in an attempt to escape the tedium. I do however, have a long term objective in mind, and that is to own my very own bright shiny Nyx one day. While I am not terribly interested in missions, I do understand that missioning is the best way to increase ones standings, and thereby decrease ones expenses at npc stations. This is something I am interested in in the long term. Merging these two objectives, I am seeking input on what ships and weapons would be the most expedient to learn along the way to my Nyx. I am looking for the least amount of divergence from what will be useful in my mothership, while still being able to handle the storyline missions with relative ease. If you have arguments in favour of some other mothership, I welcome them, so long as you also address the issues above. I haven't invested sp anywhere outside of my mining and trading pursuits thus far, so I am not yet committed to any one path. Troll/stupid and doesn't get it
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:51:00 - [5] Well the reason I ask is because of the following reasons: Motherships can't enter highsec. Motherships can't use stargates. Motherships can't dock. So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it?
Arouu	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:52:00 - [6] also, you sure as hell make it sound like you want to build one in a station.
Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Arouu Troll/stupid and doesn't get it Anybody here interested in helping me get it? Perhaps I should ask that only those who have matured emotionally above the age of twelve respond to this post.
Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Mashie Saldana So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it? Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question?
Arouu	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Lil Orphan Originally by: Mashie Saldana So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it? Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question? Why?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Lil Orphan Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question? Well you will need the biggest possible missiles (after all the Motherships are huge) so read up on "citadel torpedoes".
Artimis Scout Caldari Wormhole Cartography	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:30:00 - [11] I'll bite..... Firstly a Nyx CANNOT be built in any NPC station. It must be built in 0.0 with a capital ship array. I believe you need Sov 4 to actually build one. Once you have it built it can only go in Low Sec or 0.0 and needs Cyno fields to move around. Next, you CANNOT dock a Nyx in any NPC station. It is usally docked behind a POS shield. If you want to fly another ship you must leave the Nyx. It will sit there by itself behind the POS shield. Hopefully nobody bumps it out or takes down the POS. I guess you could do missions in it but you probably be scanned down and taken out after a few days of owning it. Good luck with you endevour.
Rui Cunguara	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:02:00 - [12] One thing the terse commenters here so far have not made very clear is the fact that motherships are very, very unwieldy for solo purposes. Even a group of 25 pilots would have trouble making one generally useful. An ugly (but somehow compelling) secret of high-sp Eve is that the really impressive stuff is accomplished by being willing to have more patience and less fun than your competitors. Motherships are a perfect example. They are an extremely specialized tool, incredibly useful for a very small scope of situations. Everywhere else, they are useless and even a liability. If you really want a Nyx, the first thing you want to do is get started working your way into 0.0 politics. If that's not attractive, then neither is a Nyx. Eve just has a way of punishing people who want to leave their e-peens showing.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:03:00 - [13] You guys CANNOT READ WORTH A ****. He is asking what ships would be good to train for for missions ON THE WAY to his Nyx. I'd say, if you are hellbent on getting a Mothership, a Nyx is a good choice: it's main bonuses lay near the Dominix. Drones and Tank is all you need to make a Dominix work in a mission, and the Nyx just goes further. Although, if you are not in a large corporation or alliance, I wouldn't recommend going for a Nyx. It is too vulnerable of a ship to 'discard' at a POS, and just sitting in it all day is hella boring.
Rui Cunguara	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:20:00 - [14] In fairness to the post above, I was editing my post to be useful when he accused everyone of illiteracy.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Rui Cunguara Edited by: Rui Cunguara on 03/02/2009 17:32:02 In fairness to the post above, I was editing my post to be useful when he accused everyone of illiteracy. Edit on this one: He's right. You want to become a perfect Dominix pilot (but for the guns unless you want them just for the interim). Given the risks you will be at, don't forget to be able to use an improved cloak. I suppose the rigs would just be CCC's, so those skills as well. But I'm sure there are people who would argue for armor or maybe even drone rigs. Nyx is incomplete without two CCC2's. Jury rigging 4 or 5 is a basic skill for any supercap pilot.
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Lil Orphan Anybody here interested in helping me get it? While training for a mothership is not a bad goal, you have to remember that you're talking about a supercap which means a 60 billion (with a B) ISK investment. The way I would go about it is to train for a Thanatos including all of the support skills such as capital modules for the tank, remote reps, and excellent drone/fighter skills. I'm actually training my alt for an Archon for a number of reasons. The major things you need to consider is that a Nyx is a huge investment with some limitations such as docking that make it a bit of a pain. Essentially you can never leave your ship without having a secure POS (preferably in a Sov 4 system) as part of a corp and alliance that you trust. Supercaps are noble goals but they're often more trouble than they're worth. This is where the "why do you want it?" questions come into play. To steal a mom, any carrier pilot with level 3 in their carrier skill can do it. To "Fly" a mom, it takes quite a bit of experience with the race's carrier and proper support from friends.
Arous Drephius Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Nyx is incomplete without two CCC2's. Jury rigging 4 or 5 is a basic skill for any supercap pilot. IV is all that's needed for CCC2's. Jury Rigging V is utterly useless.
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Tandin Originally by: Lil Orphan Anybody here interested in helping me get it? While training for a mothership is not a bad goal, you have to remember that you're talking about a supercap which means a 60 billion (with a B) ISK investment. The way I would go about it is to train for a Thanatos including all of the support skills such as capital modules for the tank, remote reps, and excellent drone/fighter skills. (this is where the domi training is good.. max out your domi/drone skills and then move on to a Thanny) I'm actually training my alt for an Archon for a number of reasons. The major things you need to consider is that a Nyx is a huge investment with some limitations such as docking that make it a bit of a pain. Essentially you can never leave your ship without having a secure POS (preferably in a Sov 4 system) as part of a corp and alliance that you trust. Supercaps are noble goals but they're often more trouble than they're worth. This is where the "why do you want it?" questions come into play. To steal a mom, any carrier pilot with level 3 in their carrier skill can do it. To "Fly" a mom, it takes quite a bit of experience with the race's carrier and proper support from friends.
Rui Cunguara	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:13:00 - [19] One more thing: a quasi-reasonable substitute for a POS with a super-cap parking lot is a alt on another account with enough skills to jump into the mom and log off while your main flies something more fun. I've been building a mommy-sitter alt for a few months now, still have a ways to go.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Lil Orphan Originally by: Mashie Saldana So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it? Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question? Then you need Gallante Carrier 3 and Cloaking 1. And 15-16 billion ISK.
Kyanzes Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.02.03 22:14:00 - [21] Edited by: Kyanzes on 03/02/2009 22:14:14 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lil Orphan Originally by: Mashie Saldana So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it? Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question? Then you need Gallante Carrier 3 and Cloaking 1. And 15-16 billion ISK. What about insurance? Can it even be insured?
Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.04 01:07:00 - [22] My thanks to those of you with reading skills. For those of you having difficulty I will re-post the QUESTION part of this thread: "I am seeking input on what ships and weapons would be the most expedient to learn along the way to my Nyx (to facilitate missioning). I am looking for the least amount of divergence from what will be useful in my mothership, while still being able to handle the storyline missions with relative ease." If you have arguments in favour of some other mothership, I welcome them, so long as you also address the issues above. I haven't invested sp anywhere outside of my mining and trading pursuits thus far, so I am not yet committed to any one path." What is not being asked is: "What should I do with my Nyx?" "Why should I have/not have a Nyx?" or "How am I going to build my Nyx?" If these are the questions you would like to answer I don't suppose I can stop you, but I will warn you that you will be writing to yourself. Those of you who cannot help yourselves, I would appreciate if you could post such thoughts in another thread so as not to confuse this one.
Aldon Calrossian	Posted - 2009.02.04 01:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Lil Orphan My thanks to those of you with reading skills. For those of you having difficulty I will re-post the QUESTION part of this thread: "I am seeking input on what ships and weapons would be the most expedient to learn along the way to my Nyx (to facilitate missioning). I am looking for the least amount of divergence from what will be useful in my mothership, while still being able to handle the storyline missions with relative ease." If you have arguments in favour of some other mothership, I welcome them, so long as you also address the issues above. I haven't invested sp anywhere outside of my mining and trading pursuits thus far, so I am not yet committed to any one path." What is not being asked is: "What should I do with my Nyx?" "Why should I have/not have a Nyx?" or "How am I going to build my Nyx?" If these are the questions you would like to answer I don't suppose I can stop you, but I will warn you that you will be writing to yourself. Those of you who cannot help yourselves, I would appreciate if you could post such thoughts in another thread so as not to confuse this one. Wow, you sure are a cranky man.
Zarya Hakkonen Caldari Hakkonen Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.04 01:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Lil Orphan What is not being asked is: "What should I do with my Nyx?" "Why should I have/not have a Nyx?" or "How am I going to build my Nyx?" If these are the questions you would like to answer I don't suppose I can stop you, but I will warn you that you will be writing to yourself. Those of you who cannot help yourselves, I would appreciate if you could post such thoughts in another thread so as not to confuse this one. Step 1: Remove the stick from your rectal cavity. Step 2: Realize that motherships aren't ships you fly without a damn good reason. Step 3: Realize that the people answering the questions you didn't ask (but should have) are actually trying to help you by making sure you've thought the whole mothership idea through all the way. Step 4: ??? Step 5: Profit! Winter is my season; midnight, my hour; silence, my anthem.
Lil Orphan	Posted - 2009.02.04 02:25:00 - [25] I can see I will have to post this question in another category. If the issue is that frequenters of this category are unfamiliar with the concept of a helpful discussion thread, here is an example of what one would look like: Helpful People Being Helpful.
Dominique Vasilkovsky BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.02.04 10:06:00 - [26] Ok so you want a Nyx, a ship that only use drones (fighters are XL sized drones), so you are best off getting a drone ship for mission running. Your options are Vexor (cruiser sized for level 2-3 missions) and the Dominix for level 4. Max out all drone and armor tanking skills. By that time you have probably read up a bit more about capital ships and will be able to figure out the remaining skills needed.
Krell Moset	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:49:00 - [27] Edited by: Krell Moset on 04/02/2009 12:50:00 As aggresively defensive as you are, the people giving answers here are correct, you just don't seem to want to listen. If you REALLY want to fly one though you'll need to: 1) Join a 0.0 Corp and migrate away from Carebear space so you actually have somewhere to fly/park it as you can't fly it in highsec. 2) Start training spaceship command, leadership, engineering, electronics, mechanic & drones skills to very HIGH levels - ie. none of the skill groups you have been training so far. 3) Using the above skills aquire and practice in the gallente drone boats, vexor, mymidon, dominix then move on to carriers (thantos)... 4) Earn billions and billions of ISK, build the relevent facilities and learn the skills to construct the Nyx, and then earn billions more to fit it respectably. 5) Have a lot of friends to stop it getting wtfpwnd before it gets out of dock... The problems you will face are: 1) With your current sh!tty attitude you will find it hard to find friends and join a corp willing to back you in your vision - and you WILL need support, motherships are not solo ventures. 2) None of your skill training so far relates in any way to flying a mothership. 3) Even players with the means and skills to fly these things don't, because they are a pain in the a$$. Given your current skills and playing style (mining/trading) why not aim for something realistic like mining barges/exhumers or flying a freighter...? At least you can fly in hisec and actually dock the damn things... If you really want fly one though I would create an Alt an start on a more focused path otherwise it will take you forever...
Rockstara	Posted - 2009.02.05 02:30:00 - [28] eve is a game. He has a goal. good enough for me. you have a lot to learn on your journey towards a nyx, and I wish you luck. It is a long and arduous path, if you liek waiting years for rewards then your in the right spot. since you want missioning for standings (to decrease expenses) I recommend you look into how best to do this. It is not by doing combat agent missions (look up courier missions). Therefore indy 5 and a t2 hauler might be a good route if you rly want to grind standings easily. Ship progression to a carrier (mothership is big freakin' carrier) is probably something like droneboat cruiser --> logistics ship ---> badass BS ---> carrier nyx is good choice. I personally wouldn't ever want a nyx, but a thanatos would be pretty sweet.
Foulque	Posted - 2009.02.05 07:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Zarya Hakkonen Step 1: Remove the stick from your rectal cavity. Originally by: Krell Moset As aggresively defensive as you are, the people giving answers here are correct, you just don't seem to want to listen. OT: Vexor -> Domi -> Thanatos -> Tears....errr I mean Nyx.
Debonair Dan	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:41:00 - [30] Haha wow, this is an amusing thread to say the least. You know, if one desires something, they should first investigate what that thing is used for. Once they know what that thing is used for, then they will actually know how to go about getting it. So what does that mean? Someone who wants/needs a Nyx, should already know why they want/need it. The advantages of owning it should already be apparent to them, and they should already be able to envisage a great deal of potential applications for it. Why? Because a Nyx is a rather advanced ship with a very specialised application. I could understand a question such as 'how do i train for osprey and make it fit good', because that is a beginners level question. Asking a beginners level question for such an advanced ship, well, seriously, seems rather childish.
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2009.02.05 12:16:00 - [31] Maybe make a pitstop for a Thanathos along the way, one step smaller than a Nyx, but can be parked in a station AFAIK. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
MarieFrance Tessier	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:12:00 - [32] Thanatos can park, yes. I'm just posting to indicate how dissapointed I am that people listed drone boats TWICE in this thread and skipped the myrmidon, easily the sexiest ship in the game. And it insure really friggin well, it's just ideal for drone-dps pvp if you plan on dying a lot and don't want to waste money, tears through level 3's, can do level 4's (sorta), and is just all around a great ship that should be included. As for your dreams of a Nyx, go for it! I'm going to be spinning a recreational Moros soon for very similar reasons.
Niko Takahashi	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:21:00 - [33] Edited by: Niko Takahashi on 06/02/2009 21:23:21 Well as far a future mothership pilot basically you will need ,drones, tank, leadership skills, remote repping skills, fleet boosting skills so for the gallente lineup the skills for Nyx will make you compentent in these ships with few skills extra. Ishkur AF Good for both pvp and low level missions Ishtar HAC Good For both PVP and Missions plexing ratting etc Dominix BB One of the most versatile bships great ship Eos CS Not so good from what i hear never flown one but if you going to be using the gang bonuses on NYX you might as well get this too Thanatos Carrier consensus is its second best carrier Definitely purchase the regular carrier before Nyx to get feeling for it Good luck Well looking at the post gallente have really nice drone boat lineup all the way to supercaps
Rusty PwnStar Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Rusty PwnStar on 07/02/2009 12:58:20 I have flown a Nyx, infact I trained for the ship as soon as I heard about them. I didn't enjoy it tbh, it can be really boring, but I digress. You should really listen to Mashie Saldana, he was not trolling you or having a dig, he understands the issues with Motherships. They are very limiting to game play. Here is my skill sheet, I've just started training gun skills, but you'll see I'm maxed for the Nyx, well almost just have the Capital remote skill and the projected counter measures skill to finish. I started as a BPO copying char, when Labs were very hard to get, but real easy to keep (and cheap) so I too have some industrial skills. Hope this helps, the Nyx is a beautiful ship, but it's been nerfed (indirectly) to the point of asking yourself.... 'Is it worth it over a Thanatos?' If you have lots of ISK, accounts and time, then yes, but you need to think hard about it as a choice before you leap. Regards Rusty
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.08 12:22:00 - [35] This is supercapital. If you need to ask you are not ready for it. And this is not intended as trolling btw, this is how it actually is. Reason for that is, that you need proper support from the corporation even to 'just sit in 0.0 cloaked' with it, ie meaning being part of corporation that is actually competent and experienced in capital ship usage. That kind of corporation is able to provide you with answers to everything related to supercapitals. Second part is, that you should not trust suggestions given to you about supercapitals from forums. That kind of question almost newer will get you the 'proper' answer other than 'if you need to ask then ...'.
chapter13	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Arouu Originally by: Lil Orphan Originally by: Mashie Saldana So the question remains, what are you going to use it for? Sit cloaked in a lowsec system with it? Supposing I wanted to sit cloaked in 0.0 space. Now would you be able to answer the actual question? Why? I lulz'ed On another note, let me know when you get into your shinny new ship and how that goes. I hear delve is a great place to park a NYX.
NaBeRa DRUCKWELLE Evolution The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.12 23:32:00 - [37] tbh, its a waste of time to answer your question, if your statement is real that you dont have any skills beside mining/trading. You will need to train skills for about 2,5 years! ask your question later, when you have realized that the guys have answered your unasked questions, that you should have asked instead of "what skills do i need". the skills that are needed for a nyx are the one you need to fly a nyx and fit a nyx, as with every other ship in this game. leadership/warfare link module (and implant). droneskills (all to V), and fighter V. Remote rep V Armor Tank V Carrier V ECCM. Capskills V. Jumping Skills and basic navigation skills. basic skills like electronics, engineering groups. as a experienced player who fly ships in pvp (in a 0.0 corp, as menthioned by some other folks earlier), you will get them sooner or later, they are to many to list them here. send me 50mil ISK ingame, and i will work out a complete skill list (evemon, with all skill levels and more, all you need for your Nyx, including fitting and all). as it will take about an hour of my spare time, thats a honest offer.
Moses Hansen	Posted - 2009.02.14 20:06:00 - [38] [ Quote: Next, you CANNOT dock a Nyx in any NPC station. It is usally docked behind a POS shield. If you want to fly another ship you must leave the Nyx. It will sit there by itself behind the POS shield. Hopefully nobody bumps it out or takes down the POS I thought bumping ships outa pos-shields was not banned from CCP??
Yalezorn Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.15 14:49:00 - [39] Given how convinced the OP is that none of you are being helpful (even though just about everyone is) I suggest you just leave him alone, wait til he builds the stupid thing, and share a laugh when it gets blown to dust, because he was too stubborn to listen. Some people just need their heads banged against the wall in order to get anything through.
jam6549 Paladines	Posted - 2009.02.16 02:05:00 - [40] seriously, what the **ing christ? are all of you just born ****ed? this guy wants to know how to get a mothership FOR THE SAKE OF IT. look at chribba, he has an avatar...he doesn't need it, he just has it as an item and gets gratification in having that item. Anyway, you cannot build motherships in stations, they must be at a POS. Therefore you will need to buy it from an alliance of some sort. My advice is make the money for the ship doing trading or whateva until u get enough money and can fly the Nyx. I also recommend asking Chribba once you have the money to be a third-party host as you need to swap the ship in space rather than in station
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.16 12:41:00 - [41] fly a thanatos for awhile - if you like it, and find yourself never docking or never having the desire to dock then go for the nyx. For the most part, Moms are logistics tools for larger groups of people, carry ships around and re-ammo/fuel other ships. In terms of combat - its a paper weight. it does look cool though - so gl. -----------
Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:33:00 - [42] I'll just give you a small peace of advice... First train drone skills and mechanic and engeneering skills... All would be nice to have at level 5 if it's more basic, 4 if it's more advanced. Except shield stuff from engeneering, you won't need those. You WILL need capital remotes reps for both armor and shield, but armor is more important. Bring those to level 4 at least. On the way further - fly a domi a bit if you want to run missions. When you got enough sp in tanking and drones, you just run missions fully AFK, thanks to what it doesn't cost you almost any time. If you'r not doing it for profit, even better, don't waste time salvaging and looting the wrecks and just run threw the mission and allow newbs to salvage and loot for 50% of the value of what they find. That will give you a lot of standing really fast. Your standing will go skyhigh very fast and your prices at stations will drop fast. Before you fly a nyx, you will have to fully train for a thanatos. Train for it, fly with it... Before you buy it / make it and fit it... Be sure to have more than 5 bil in savings, or you'll cry a month later when you lose it :P When you got the thanny maxed out fully, just save the.. 30/40 bil for a nyx, buy it when you have around 100 bil saved, so agian, you won't whine when you lose it :) I know you aren't aiming at pvp, but accidents DO HAPPEN! Lag, when just looking at the ship when you undock, whatever. Have a large, large savings box before you fly the babe. That's the advice I got, that's the advice I try to follow... And I know I won't get to a thanatos within this year probably :P ------------------------ My Deviantart profile
loldongs III loldongs industries	Posted - 2009.02.16 21:17:00 - [43] You don't want a nyx. Most supercap pilots hate themselves for being tethered to their ship. You don't want a thanatos either because its probably the worst carrier (for working with others which is what carriers are for). Train for an archon or chimera. Those will make you useful with others and you can have fun with them on your own.
Insolent One	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:17:00 - [44] You are dumb. L2P kthxbai

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