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Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:48:00 - [1] Ok I'm tired of the "nerf falcon" - "Fit ECCM" fight at this point. I'm tired of all the threads. So here's my suggestion: Take away the Huginn Bonus for web distance and give it ECCM Strength bonus(the same per level as Falcon). Since CCP decided to nerf webs and speed, making the huginn/rapier less important, turn the Huginn into a falcon killer. Plus the Huginn and the curse have the worst sensor strength anyway. Probably will be called stupid for this too but whatever at least the idea is out there. /suits up in flamesuit
P'uck	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:56:00 - [2] So we turn the huginn into a half-a-trick-pony to kill a one-trick-pony... I mean, I can see the falcon is boring to fly, but why punish the huginn pilots for it
Pedro Snachez Red Horse Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:02:00 - [3] First off, without the web range bonus how is the huginn going to be able to catch a competent falcon pilot sitting 100k+ off of a gate? It won't really be much better than any other ship. And that's just to web it. How are you supposed to get a point on it? Also, the concept of only one ship being the only reasonable counter to the falcon doesn't get us anywhere. It'll be like pre QR, where the only really good way to take down a nano gang was to either out-nano or use rapiers/huginns, which basically mandated the training of Minmatar Cruiser 5. Why do that again? In my mind ccp either needs to nerf the falcon range to make falcon pilots fly closer in for effective jams, or to boost the strength of ECCM a bit. Making one hard counter for the falcon as it is now won't fix anything.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Visceroth on 03/02/2009 17:09:03 Originally by: Pedro Snachez First off, without the web range bonus how is the huginn going to be able to catch a competent falcon pilot sitting 100k+ off of a gate? It won't really be much better than any other ship. And that's just to web it. How are you supposed to get a point on it? Also, the concept of only one ship being the only reasonable counter to the falcon doesn't get us anywhere. It'll be like pre QR, where the only really good way to take down a nano gang was to either out-nano or use rapiers/huginns, which basically mandated the training of Minmatar Cruiser 5. Why do that again? In my mind ccp either needs to nerf the falcon range to make falcon pilots fly closer in for effective jams, or to boost the strength of ECCM a bit. Making one hard counter for the falcon as it is now won't fix anything. No we are not turning this into a nerf falcon thread! for Nano's Large neuts worked well against nano's too, and that does not require much training. Turning up the ECCM effectivness of a huginn does not negate it's worth by any means. Using Heavies it can still shoot at 84 KM(with max skills) and still be within TP range. Making the falcon warp away is just as effective as killing it. Either way it is out of the fight. Obviously you would nano the huginn, not much else you can do with 3 low slots. Edit: but you are right about having to train minnie cruiser V. So better yet, lets take away the Bellicose TP bonus and apply the ECCM bonus there
P'uck	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Pedro Snachez First off, without the web range bonus how is the huginn going to be able to catch a competent falcon pilot sitting 100k+ off of a gate? It won't really be much better than any other ship. And that's just to web it. How are you supposed to get a point on it? Just to nitpick a little, how is the webbing bonus helping, anyway? Apart from MAYBE keeping a few ceptors off your ass while you make a run for it? It's not like that falcon is going to be superfast or in jumprange The main reasons he mentioned the huginn probably are speed, slots, base sensor strength and the recent kick in the balls it got.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Faife on 03/02/2009 17:25:34 leave my ****ing huginn alone you stupid noob. it's one of the top ships for the minmatar and you not knowing how to use it doesn't mean it needs to be made into a utter crap ship
Pedro Snachez Red Horse Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Visceroth No we are not turning this into a nerf falcon thread! for Nano's Large neuts worked well against nano's too, and that does not require much training. Turning up the ECCM effectivness of a huginn does not negate it's worth by any means. Using Heavies it can still shoot at 84 KM(with max skills) and still be within TP range. Making the falcon warp away is just as effective as killing it. Either way it is out of the fight. Obviously you would nano the huginn, not much else you can do with 3 low slots. Edit: but you are right about having to train minnie cruiser V. So better yet, lets take away the Bellicose TP bonus and apply the ECCM bonus there I hear you about falcon nerf threads, that's not what I was ultimately trying to get across. I would argue that making the falcon warp off is in no way as good as killing it. Last I remember, it's jam continues even after it's warped off (could be wrong), but if it's not dead it can come back if the fight goes on long enough. Making it warp off definitely helps, but it's not an effective kill. And 84km is not enough to hit a falcon. Even nanoed you still have a hike to get to the point where you can even hit, let alone scramble. If you're coming through a gate with your gang into a camp, then trying to get a good warp-in on it is unrealistic. You can set up other ships to be falcon killers (cerbs, sniper fit BS with tons of ECCM), but why would you hem in a whole ship to countering one specific other? It's just more rock-paper-scissors. I definitely think the huginn needs some love, but making it a singular counter to the falcon doesn't do much to counter falcons on the field other than dictate the presence of yet another recon. Just make the huginn better at what it's supposed to do (and for the love of god fix split weapons systems!), not strictly for wtfpwning falcons.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Faife Edited by: Faife on 03/02/2009 17:25:34 leave my ****ing huginn alone you stupid noob. it's one of the top ships for the minmatar and you not knowing how to use it doesn't mean it needs to be made into a utter crap ship Wow hostile, didn't say I don't know how to use it. But way to emo-rage.
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:34:00 - [9] Why don't you just take away the damage bonus of the Vagabond and replace it with a bonus to, umm ... , scan resolution to counter dampners? /lights the flamesuit PS. I am tired of those nerf falcon threads too, but nothing can stop it. It will appear in a new shiny shape after the next patch.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Pedro Snachez Originally by: Visceroth No we are not turning this into a nerf falcon thread! for Nano's Large neuts worked well against nano's too, and that does not require much training. Turning up the ECCM effectivness of a huginn does not negate it's worth by any means. Using Heavies it can still shoot at 84 KM(with max skills) and still be within TP range. Making the falcon warp away is just as effective as killing it. Either way it is out of the fight. Obviously you would nano the huginn, not much else you can do with 3 low slots. Edit: but you are right about having to train minnie cruiser V. So better yet, lets take away the Bellicose TP bonus and apply the ECCM bonus there I hear you about falcon nerf threads, that's not what I was ultimately trying to get across. I would argue that making the falcon warp off is in no way as good as killing it. Last I remember, it's jam continues even after it's warped off (could be wrong), but if it's not dead it can come back if the fight goes on long enough. Making it warp off definitely helps, but it's not an effective kill. And 84km is not enough to hit a falcon. Even nanoed you still have a hike to get to the point where you can even hit, let alone scramble. If you're coming through a gate with your gang into a camp, then trying to get a good warp-in on it is unrealistic. You can set up other ships to be falcon killers (cerbs, sniper fit BS with tons of ECCM), but why would you hem in a whole ship to countering one specific other? It's just more rock-paper-scissors. I definitely think the huginn needs some love, but making it a singular counter to the falcon doesn't do much to counter falcons on the field other than dictate the presence of yet another recon. Just make the huginn better at what it's supposed to do (and for the love of god fix split weapons systems!), not strictly for wtfpwning falcons. Yeah you are right. I was under the impression that you thought making the huginn specialized to kill a falcon makes it obsolete. I was counter-pointing that saying that with 84KM range it can still chase down a falcon 100KM away and still have time to come back in range and help the gang. But I'm changing my view a bit here. Like I posted earlier, lets take away the Bellicose's TP bonus and instead give it a 20% boost to ECCM / level
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Major Celine Why don't you just take away the damage bonus of the Vagabond and replace it with a bonus to, umm ... , scan resolution to counter dampners? /lights the flamesuit PS. I am tired of those nerf falcon threads too, but nothing can stop it. It will appear in a new shiny shape after the next patch. TBH cause dampners don't bother me. But realistically, speed is a counter to dampners. The faster you can close the targeting range distance, the less effective dampners are.
Raniss	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:38:00 - [12] Worst. Idea. Ever.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Raniss Worst. Idea. Ever. Worst. Post. Ever. See I can make worthless posts too
P'uck	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:40:00 - [14] The whole idea of dedicating one ship to killing another through bonuses and stats isn't the best one, tbh.
Raniss	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Visceroth Originally by: Raniss Worst. Idea. Ever. Worst. Post. Ever. See I can make worthless posts too Making a ship that is a one trick pony counter to another specefic ship is a worst idea ever. Now you, worst poaster ever.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Raniss Originally by: Visceroth Originally by: Raniss Worst. Idea. Ever. Worst. Post. Ever. See I can make worthless posts too Making a ship that is a one trick pony counter to another specefic ship is a worst idea ever. Now you, worst poaster ever. So, I want to change ONE bonus and all of a sudden it's a one trick pony? doesn't that say something about the ship ALREADY? If you take my revised idea of taking away the Bellicose TP bonus and giving it a 20% bonus to signal strength per level, it still has the web bonus and split system bonus for the Huginn. Therefore it's the same ship just a different bonus. It doesn't HAVE to be a Falcon killer, and if you have it in a recon gang, it can still web at long ranges and still be a valuable asset to the gang. I'm trying to replace a TP bonus, which I'm not sure if a lot of people even use, for a more effective one to balance out the game a bit. To the falcons defense, it doesn't make them immune to jamming, it just makes the chance smaller.
sAyArrrr Minmatar Omyst Research	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:51:00 - [17] Stay away from my huginn/rapier plz.
Raniss	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Visceroth Originally by: Raniss Originally by: Visceroth Originally by: Raniss Worst. Idea. Ever. Worst. Post. Ever. See I can make worthless posts too Making a ship that is a one trick pony counter to another specefic ship is a worst idea ever. Now you, worst poaster ever. So, I want to change ONE bonus and all of a sudden it's a one trick pony? doesn't that say something about the ship ALREADY? If you take my revised idea of taking away the Bellicose TP bonus and giving it a 20% bonus to signal strength per level, it still has the web bonus and split system bonus for the Huginn. Therefore it's the same ship just a different bonus. It doesn't HAVE to be a Falcon killer, and if you have it in a recon gang, it can still web at long ranges and still be a valuable asset to the gang. I'm trying to replace a TP bonus, which I'm not sure if a lot of people even use, for a more effective one to balance out the game a bit. To the falcons defense, it doesn't make them immune to jamming, it just makes the chance smaller. Hint: Recon ships are offensive ewar ships from wich a whole gang benefits. Both painters and webs are minmatar ew and by using them benefits the whole gang. Removing one of their ewar bonuses for a bonus wich will only benefit the ship itself (like the signal strength) is completely pointless, especially on a recon ship. And, in the end, the falcon whill get nerfed and then you will be left with a borked ship with random useless bonuses. You want that? No thanks.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:54:00 - [19] Originally by: sAyArrrr Stay away from my huginn/rapier plz. Ok I'll change the Bellicose instead. remove TP bonus for Sensor strength bonus/level
Raniss	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Visceroth Originally by: sAyArrrr Stay away from my huginn/rapier plz. Ok I'll change the Bellicose instead. remove TP bonus for Sensor strength bonus/level So you want a already completely useless ship to get a bonus that only works for the ship itself? What is the point of doing this to a ewarship? Really, the only reason i can see for this suggestion is that you are so ****ed at falcons that you want a effective counter. Here is my suggestion, use a arazu or a pilgrim for that: More than enough mids for eccm.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Raniss Hint: Recon ships are offensive ewar ships from wich a whole gang benefits. Both painters and webs are minmatar ew and by using them benefits the whole gang. Removing one of their ewar bonuses for a bonus wich will only benefit the ship itself (like the signal strength) is completely pointless, especially on a recon ship. And, in the end, the falcon whill get nerfed and then you will be left with a borked ship with random useless bonuses. You want that? No thanks. Really? So getting rid of a ship that takes out multiple gang members out of a fight isn't helpful to the gang? And even if Falcons get nerfed, ECM will still be around. Unless CCP changes the complete Mechanics of ECM/ECCM, signal strength will matter.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:01:00 - [22] See, and just reworking ECCM (if even, just sayin) would be a whole lot of a better idea... because it is available for all races, and should ECM get nerfed, you just dont fit that countering mod, which is a lot better than just not flying that ship which was created solely to counter ECM.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:07:00 - [23] Originally by: P'uck See, and just reworking ECCM (if even, just sayin) would be a whole lot of a better idea... because it is available for all races, and should ECM get nerfed, you just dont fit that countering mod, which is a lot better than just not flying that ship which was created solely to counter ECM. Well that's the main issue with Falcon pilots. Now you are making their whole ship worthless by making ECCM more effective, since their bonuses lie in ECM strength. My way, a Falcon and ECM is still effective but there is a strong counter. This was the same complaint that people had with Huginn's/Rapier's during the nano nerf, saying only minmatar had the only viable counter to nano's. Than you really don't have to nerf ECM. Rapiers/huginns are still useful even if a Falcon is not encountered.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.03 18:14:00 - [24] This idea was thoroughly thought through.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:28:00 - [25] Originally by: Raniss Worst. Idea. Ever. This. I am a ceptor pilot and huggins still scare the crap outta me.
AtheistOfDoom	Posted - 2009.02.04 00:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Raniss Hint: Recon ships are offensive ewar ships from wich a whole gang benefits. Both painters and webs are minmatar ew and by using them benefits the whole gang. Removing one of their ewar bonuses for a bonus wich will only benefit the ship itself (like the signal strength) is completely pointless, especially on a recon ship. And, in the end, the falcon whill get nerfed and then you will be left with a borked ship with random useless bonuses. You want that? No thanks. sorry visce but this^ is what I was gonna say too. giving a signal strength/eccm bonus would be useless and rediculus since its useless vs anything but caldari ecm and isnt in line with other recons (and some other nerdy stuff that would make sense if i wasnt so lazy >_>).
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.02.04 00:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Visceroth Probably will be called stupid for this too but whatever at least the idea is out there. George W Bush, is that you? *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**

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