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Market graph really useful?

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Corpia Sin	Posted - 2009.02.04 03:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Corpia Sin on 04/02/2009 03:32:49 Originally by: SencneS I tell people who want to get into trading that no one is going to give them any info unless that info is to the benefit of the giver. However I like to be a little helpful so here is a tip I've used before. When the little Green Line on the Graph page is above the little Red Line... BUY BUY BUY!!!!! When the little Red Line on the Graph page is above the little Green Line... SELL SELL SELL!!!!! When the fat brown boxes behind the two lines are huge, someone is manipulating that item. When the little yellow dots are all in a line and steady, No one manipulating that market and there is probably hardly any competition. When then Little Red Line and Little Green Line are about the same, And the Brown box is really small, and the yellow dots are all in a row and you have a huge surplus of that item, Load em up into a hauler, haul them to noobie stations and deposit gifts for people because becoming the "Gift god" is what made Chribba a god amongst men (Hi Chribby). There is your indispensable market tip from SencneS. Well, my question is in regard to this post. Is it necessary to have a working knowledge (and a math degree) of the the market graph to be successful? - the lines, boxes what do they all really mean? She says its indispensable information but I find it a generic statement that could not even begin to shed light on the market graph ui. I see that in the game the red line is labeled as Moving Avg (5d) - whatever that means. And the other items have labels such as Donchian channel and median day price. Whatever this is so cryptic. So does the red line = high sell orders? So does the green line = low buy orders? So if the red line is way over the green that means there are extremely high sell orders with very low buy orders equaling a great potential for profit? If so I can normally surmise this information just from looking at the details in the market data of x item. Does this graph averaging regional, system or galaxy wide information? Still have no idea what the yellow dots, brown boxes or green graph at the bottom suggest. And what is manipulating the system?
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:10:00 - [2] Originally by: Corpia Sin Well, my question is in regard to this post. Is it necessary to have a working knowledge (and a math degree) of the the market graph to be successful? - the lines, boxes what do they all really mean? Math degree won't help you here, you need exposer to finance. That said, most finance students just do it for the money so they couldn't help you with charting aka Technical analysis. I can read the chart but I also enjoy reading the table, I prefer to see numbers even if its not all of them. As you use the charts you should be able to pick up the information.
Toldos Leafkicker Tenichigo Kaigun	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:14:00 - [3] Every trade I make or deal I find involves use of the graph. Well, let me rephrase that. Every profitable trade I've ever done has been via use of the graph. I pay the most attention to the median price (yellow boxies) and the median price spread (vertical yellow lines). The Donchian channel is also great for figuring whether or not your buy orders will be filled, or what sell orders have recently gone through. Seems to be a pretty big delay on it, though. -- <3
Illioe	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:20:00 - [4] I personally make use of both the graph and the table, though the table probably more so. I primarily use the graph to look at long term price trends to try identify whether something that looks like a good deal might turn bad fast (price spikes). My concern here is what risk there is in getting stuck with stock that I can't move without a loss. I don't know finance, so Donchian channel doesn't mean anything to me; mean price is primarily what I look at. I use the table to examine how many units are selling per day (for potential volume I could sell) and how many of those are from buy orders and sell orders. Some items may have like 30 buy orders but, but with without one buy order being met in WEEKS. That's a good hint not to try put in a buy order on that item, unless you plan to narrow the price margin a lot.
Ambo EMMA Test Corp	Posted - 2009.02.04 06:49:00 - [5] Edited by: Ambo on 04/02/2009 06:50:08 Personally, I never look at the table. When I'm doing my inital research, the graph can be useful to see trends over time, whether the current prices are normal or not, things like that. Edit, oh, and for checking the sort of volumes you can expect to be moving. Day to day, I rarely make any use of it at all though.
Forceflow Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:01:00 - [6] Donchian Channel I use the graph for initially finding profitable items to trade in. Once you find your goods, you're not gonna be using it much unless you're trying to predict the next trough or peak.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:27:00 - [7] can someone write a guide to this beast?
Jacqueline Coeur	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:28:00 - [8] Edited by: Jacqueline Coeur on 04/02/2009 07:30:15 The graph (or the table form of it) is only for in-region trades. Each region has a completely separate market. Sell order prices and buy order prices have nothing to do with the graph. The graph is about completed transactions. Either a buy order or a sell order can be fullfilled to qualify as a completed transaction. Not ALL completed transations are accounted in the graph. We do not know exactly what transactions are and what are not, it's like CCP "cuts off" the highest and lowest transactions, but we do not how many they ignore when making the graph. The advices you quote are generally correct. But as anything in the market do not take them literally. They give you a hint, but you should apply your own knowledge of the market (or else everybody would be buying tons of Plexes in Jita right now). The best explanation of the data math I can give you is: - red line: average transaction price over last 5 days - green line: average transaction price over last 20 days - yellow dot: median transaction price of the day The Donchian Channel (the brown area) is a bit more complex. It's computed over n days (no idea how many days CCP uses for that). Let's assume they use 5 days (i may be wrong here). Consider the channel as the area between two separate lines (top and bottom limits of the channel). The top limit is the maximum transaction price over the last 5 days. The bottom is the lowest transaction price over the last 5 days.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:56:00 - [9] Hexxx explained a lot of the market stuff in this audio file, the infamous HEXXX.rar. Have a listen :)
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.02.04 10:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Hexxx explained a lot of the market stuff in this audio file, the infamous HEXXX.rar. Have a listen. Perhaps the infamy is partly because he doesn't get the description of the market graph quite right in that session? Have a listen. Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible. Market + Price History Graph A legend for the Market window's Price History graph is included right on the chart itself. Most items are all plotted in relation to the y-axis scale at the left of the chart (ISK): ò The red line is 'Moving Avg. (5 d)' (some links for those who find internet searching a challenge: Wikipedia, Investopedia) ò The green line is 'Moving Avg. (20 d)' ò The brown lines define the Donchian Channel (Wikipedia, Investopedia), which simple observation will show you trails five days. ò The yellow dots are 'Median day price' (Wikipedia, Investopedia) Two other items are plotted on the graph but not listed in the legend: ò The faint yellow vertial lines indicate the intra-day high and low prices. ò The green bars at the bottom of the chart indicate daily trade volume in total units, in relation to the y-axis scale at the right of the chart (units). The reported daily high and low prices (in the table and on the graph) are 'massaged', i.e., they exclude extreme outlier values. As far as I know, the precise formula for determining which extreme values are excluded as outliers has not been determined players or made public by CCP. Current intra-day numbers for the median and highs and lows may not match the eventually-computed historical numbers for at least two reasons: (i) the present day may not be complete, so the values can shift, and (ii) the current intra-day numbers may be computed differently than the historical numbers.
Mortisha Addams	Posted - 2009.02.04 10:56:00 - [11] I write reports for EPOS software so was similar with certain aspects of the Market Graph when it was released, that being said there were things on there that didn't make sense, did a simple google and found it on wikipedia.
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.02.04 11:41:00 - [12] I only use the table because the graph isn't that well designed. It confuses me more then tells me anything. On scan over the table view tells me enough though :)
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.04 15:20:00 - [13] Edited by: nether void on 04/02/2009 15:25:03 Here let me google that for you: moving+average Here let me google that for you: Donchian+channel To be a bit more productive in this thread, the jewel of the graph, IMO, is the volume graph at the bottom. It shows how much product moved in that region each day. --------------------
cpt Mark	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:32:00 - [14] Personally I don't use the graph, but I use the table instead because it shows alot more relevant information. Although you would need to check it fairly frequently and it might not generate as many profits.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:14:00 - [15] ok, a specific question: lets say the green line and the red line are at the same level (very close together) over several months. the bottom of the donchian channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period. the yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines the vertical yellow lines are almost always above the yellow dots ending at the top of the channel the price is constant, the traded amount/day isnt what does that all mean?
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Thoraemond Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible. Blasphemy. In seriousness, you are correct. CCP is eliminating outliers. Since we don't have a way of "perfectly" viewing all details of all transaction data, it is extremely difficult to determine the criterion for what are and are not outliers. EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Thoraemond Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible. Blasphemy. In seriousness, you are correct. CCP is eliminating outliers. Since we don't have a way of "perfectly" viewing all details of all transaction data, it is extremely difficult to determine the criterion for what are and are not outliers. More than 3 standard deviations from mean would be where I would start first. Or maybe 4. That's pretty up there. --------------------
Dani SP Rupture Farms Mining	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:53:00 - [18] damn, seems it's necessary serious studying time to get understand the market. Will take a look, I always like to get the reasons, not just follow the path. "check the red line, compare this points, etc." I DO want to undestand it! :)
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:38:00 - [19] Reading the graph is not an exact science, since there are a lot of factors that might be in play, but here are some thoughts: Originally by: Loaby The green line and the red line are at the same level (very close together) over several months. As it looks: median price is steady. Perhaps not many new people getting into that market? Probably not an item that has been directly affected by a patch in the time period you're viewing. Originally by: Loaby The bottom of the Donchian Channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period. The yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines. The median price is tending toward the daily lows, so perhaps most units being sold to sell orders; some sales are at the substantially higher price, probably from sell orders. Originally by: Loaby The vertical yellow lines are almost always above the yellow dot ending at the top of the channel. Recall that the vertical yellow lines define the channel: the highest price of the last 5 days is the top of the channel, the lowest price of the last 5 days is the bottom. Originally by: Loaby The price is constant, the traded amount/day isn't. Perhaps some weekly cycling (higher sales volumes closer to the weekends, when there are higher login counts), perhaps an indication of periodic or aperiodic activity (e.g., large alliance-scale operations nearby on some days but not on others).
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:45:00 - [20] ok, thanks. but... Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Loaby The bottom of the Donchian Channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period. The yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines. The median price is tending toward the daily lows, so perhaps most units being sold to sell orders; some sales are at the substantially higher price, probably from sell orders. doesnt this have to be 'buy' ?
Atima Minmatar House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Corpia Sin Market graph really useful? Yes. It shows if the price of an item is on the rise / fall / stationary, and to what extent. Also shows if the market for an item is steady/fluxuating. Can be used to decipher the difference in buy / sell orders and if sellers are regularly selling to buy orders or posting there own sell orders. It has a multitude of functions, the best advice I can offer is to understand what everything on it means and then predict how the market is going to move. I.E. People are selling to buy orders = they are happy with the price the goods are selling at so it is likely to see a fall in price. ( can be seen when 20/5day avg is close to lower end of donchain channel ) Huge spike in someone buying from sell orders? Check volumes, this could be market manipulation at work. just a few examples.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:22:00 - [22] even after reading this thread i doesnt seem to be able to see whether people sell to buy orders or buy from sell orders. hell, i¦m usually not that stupid in rl
Mr Gecko	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:26:00 - [23] Edited by: Mr Gecko on 05/02/2009 23:43:03 Originally by: Loaby even after reading this thread i doesnt seem to be able to see whether people sell to buy orders or buy from sell orders. hell, i¦m usually not that stupid in rl Nah, youre not stupid:) If you want to buy something immediatly you will want to check the sellorders that others have put up. If you want to buy something at a certain price you can put up youre own buyorder, however it may take a while before someone wants to sell the item to you at that price. With sellorders its the opposite, if you want to sell something you can first check the buyorders that have been put up on the market, however if you believe that you can get a higher price you can put up your own sellorder at the price of your own choosing. If anyone else believe thats a fair price then they will buy from your sellorder. Short version; you buy from other ppls sellorders and your own buyorders. You sell to other ppls buyorders and from your own sellorders. Hope I got that right.
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:11:00 - [24] what a long post for a simple joke
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.02.06 04:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Loaby Doesn't [that typo] have to be 'buy'? Yes, sorry, I meant that if the median price tends toward the low end of the daily range, this might be an indication that most units were sold to standing buy orders. My thoughts were probably running ahead of my typing (i.e., to the sentence following that typo). It looks like you got my meaning though, so I would probably not call you 'stupid'.
Mr Gecko	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Loaby what a long post for a simple joke Figured you were new so I was just trying to be nice and help you, no need to be a ***** about it.
Red Flood	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:24:00 - [27] Quote: Every trade I make or deal I find involves use of the graph. Well, let me rephrase that. Every profitable trade I've ever done has been via use of the graph. I pay the most attention to the median price (yellow boxies) and the median price spread (vertical yellow lines). This^^
Loaby	Posted - 2009.02.07 00:27:00 - [28] Edited by: Loaby on 07/02/2009 00:36:40 is that true: the green line trend is "stronger" than the red one? edit: ok, found the answer myself. man, reading and learning all that stuff linked by Thoraemond is some kind of work, esp when english is not your native language
Wreyn Sevet	Posted - 2009.02.07 02:31:00 - [29] No specific questions -- I just want to remark that this is a very useful thread. Thanks for clearing all of these issues up guys.
Corpia Sin	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:00:00 - [30] Edited by: Corpia Sin on 08/02/2009 02:02:37 Edited by: Corpia Sin on 08/02/2009 02:01:55 I have a further question about the market Table not the graph. I hear people talking about the ability to see how many items are sold a day. So is that information in the table ? If so how do you read it? For example the market table is as follows for Large F-S9 Shield Induction mod in the Essence region. I am searching region to sell off my buy orders that I placed in Jita. So I want to find a region that sells higher than I bought for and moves fast. [Date]______[ORDERS]_______[Quanity]____[Low]______[High]_____[Average] 2009.02.08____24______________34_______115,211____354,890______324,213 Does this mean there were 24 sales out of 34 items? What does the Low, High and Average indicate?

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