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Corpia Sin
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Posted - 2009.02.04 03:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Corpia Sin on 04/02/2009 03:32:49
 Originally by: SencneS
I tell people who want to get into trading that no one is going to give them any info unless that info is to the benefit of the giver.
However I like to be a little helpful so here is a tip I've used before.
When the little Green Line on the Graph page is above the little Red Line... BUY BUY BUY!!!!!
When the little Red Line on the Graph page is above the little Green Line... SELL SELL SELL!!!!!
When the fat brown boxes behind the two lines are huge, someone is manipulating that item.
When the little yellow dots are all in a line and steady, No one manipulating that market and there is probably hardly any competition.
When then Little Red Line and Little Green Line are about the same, And the Brown box is really small, and the yellow dots are all in a row and you have a huge surplus of that item, Load em up into a hauler, haul them to noobie stations and deposit gifts for people because becoming the "Gift god" is what made Chribba a god amongst men (Hi Chribby).
There is your indispensable market tip from SencneS.
Well, my question is in regard to this post. Is it necessary to have a working knowledge (and a math degree) of the the market graph to be successful? - the lines, boxes what do they all really mean?
She says its indispensable information but I find it a generic statement that could not even begin to shed light on the market graph ui. I see that in the game the red line is labeled as Moving Avg (5d) - whatever that means. And the other items have labels such as Donchian channel and median day price. Whatever this is so cryptic.
So does the red line = high sell orders?
So does the green line = low buy orders?
So if the red line is way over the green that means there are extremely high sell orders with very low buy orders equaling a great potential for profit? If so I can normally surmise this information just from looking at the details in the market data of x item.
Does this graph averaging regional, system or galaxy wide information?
Still have no idea what the yellow dots, brown boxes or green graph at the bottom suggest.
And what is manipulating the system?
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Dreamwalker
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:10:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Corpia Sin
Well, my question is in regard to this post. Is it necessary to have a working knowledge (and a math degree) of the the market graph to be successful? - the lines, boxes what do they all really mean?
Math degree won't help you here, you need exposer to finance. That said, most finance students just do it for the money so they couldn't help you with charting aka Technical analysis.
I can read the chart but I also enjoy reading the table, I prefer to see numbers even if its not all of them. As you use the charts you should be able to pick up the information.
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Toldos Leafkicker
Tenichigo Kaigun
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:14:00 -
[3]
Every trade I make or deal I find involves use of the graph.
Well, let me rephrase that. Every profitable trade I've ever done has been via use of the graph.
I pay the most attention to the median price (yellow boxies) and the median price spread (vertical yellow lines).
The Donchian channel is also great for figuring whether or not your buy orders will be filled, or what sell orders have recently gone through. Seems to be a pretty big delay on it, though.
--
<3 |
Illioe
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:20:00 -
[4]
I personally make use of both the graph and the table, though the table probably more so.
I primarily use the graph to look at long term price trends to try identify whether something that looks like a good deal might turn bad fast (price spikes). My concern here is what risk there is in getting stuck with stock that I can't move without a loss. I don't know finance, so Donchian channel doesn't mean anything to me; mean price is primarily what I look at.
I use the table to examine how many units are selling per day (for potential volume I could sell) and how many of those are from buy orders and sell orders. Some items may have like 30 buy orders but, but with without one buy order being met in WEEKS. That's a good hint not to try put in a buy order on that item, unless you plan to narrow the price margin a lot.
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.04 06:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ambo on 04/02/2009 06:50:08
Personally, I never look at the table.
When I'm doing my inital research, the graph can be useful to see trends over time, whether the current prices are normal or not, things like that.
Edit, oh, and for checking the sort of volumes you can expect to be moving.
Day to day, I rarely make any use of it at all though. |
Forceflow
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:01:00 -
[6]
Donchian Channel
I use the graph for initially finding profitable items to trade in.
Once you find your goods, you're not gonna be using it much unless you're trying to predict the next trough or peak. |
Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:27:00 -
[7]
can someone write a guide to this beast?
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Jacqueline Coeur
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jacqueline Coeur on 04/02/2009 07:30:15
The graph (or the table form of it) is only for in-region trades. Each region has a completely separate market.
Sell order prices and buy order prices have nothing to do with the graph. The graph is about completed transactions. Either a buy order or a sell order can be fullfilled to qualify as a completed transaction.
Not ALL completed transations are accounted in the graph. We do not know exactly what transactions are and what are not, it's like CCP "cuts off" the highest and lowest transactions, but we do not how many they ignore when making the graph.
The advices you quote are generally correct. But as anything in the market do not take them literally. They give you a hint, but you should apply your own knowledge of the market (or else everybody would be buying tons of Plexes in Jita right now).
The best explanation of the data math I can give you is:
- red line: average transaction price over last 5 days
- green line: average transaction price over last 20 days
- yellow dot: median transaction price of the day
The Donchian Channel (the brown area) is a bit more complex. It's computed over n days (no idea how many days CCP uses for that).
Let's assume they use 5 days (i may be wrong here). Consider the channel as the area between two separate lines (top and bottom limits of the channel). The top limit is the maximum transaction price over the last 5 days. The bottom is the lowest transaction price over the last 5 days.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:56:00 -
[9]
Hexxx explained a lot of the market stuff in this audio file, the infamous HEXXX.rar. Have a listen :) |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Hexxx explained a lot of the market stuff in this audio file, the infamous HEXXX.rar. Have a listen.
Perhaps the infamy is partly because he doesn't get the description of the market graph quite right in that session? Have a listen.
Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible.
Market + Price History Graph
A legend for the Market window's Price History graph is included right on the chart itself. Most items are all plotted in relation to the y-axis scale at the left of the chart (ISK):
ò The red line is 'Moving Avg. (5 d)' (some links for those who find internet searching a challenge: Wikipedia, Investopedia)
ò The green line is 'Moving Avg. (20 d)'
ò The brown lines define the Donchian Channel (Wikipedia, Investopedia), which simple observation will show you trails five days.
ò The yellow dots are 'Median day price' (Wikipedia, Investopedia)
Two other items are plotted on the graph but not listed in the legend:
ò The faint yellow vertial lines indicate the intra-day high and low prices.
ò The green bars at the bottom of the chart indicate daily trade volume in total units, in relation to the y-axis scale at the right of the chart (units).
The reported daily high and low prices (in the table and on the graph) are 'massaged', i.e., they exclude extreme outlier values. As far as I know, the precise formula for determining which extreme values are excluded as outliers has not been determined players or made public by CCP.
Current intra-day numbers for the median and highs and lows may not match the eventually-computed historical numbers for at least two reasons: (i) the present day may not be complete, so the values can shift, and (ii) the current intra-day numbers may be computed differently than the historical numbers.
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Mortisha Addams
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:56:00 -
[11]
I write reports for EPOS software so was similar with certain aspects of the Market Graph when it was released, that being said there were things on there that didn't make sense, did a simple google and found it on wikipedia.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:41:00 -
[12]
I only use the table because the graph isn't that well designed. It confuses me more then tells me anything.
On scan over the table view tells me enough though :) |
nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:20:00 -
[13]
Edited by: nether void on 04/02/2009 15:25:03
Here let me google that for you: moving+average
Here let me google that for you: Donchian+channel
To be a bit more productive in this thread, the jewel of the graph, IMO, is the volume graph at the bottom. It shows how much product moved in that region each day.
--------------------
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2009.02.04 17:32:00 -
[14]
Personally I don't use the graph, but I use the table instead because it shows alot more relevant information.
Although you would need to check it fairly frequently and it might not generate as many profits. |
Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:14:00 -
[15]
ok, a specific question:
lets say the green line and the red line are at the same level (very close together) over several months.
the bottom of the donchian channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period.
the yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines
the vertical yellow lines are almost always above the yellow dots ending at the top of the channel
the price is constant, the traded amount/day isnt
what does that all mean?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible.
Blasphemy. 
In seriousness, you are correct. CCP is eliminating outliers. Since we don't have a way of "perfectly" viewing all details of all transaction data, it is extremely difficult to determine the criterion for what are and are not outliers.
EBANK Staff | www.eve-bank.net
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Thoraemond
Hexxx is rightly well respected, and the audio file is worth checking out, but the guy is not infallible.
Blasphemy.
In seriousness, you are correct. CCP is eliminating outliers. Since we don't have a way of "perfectly" viewing all details of all transaction data, it is extremely difficult to determine the criterion for what are and are not outliers.
More than 3 standard deviations from mean would be where I would start first. Or maybe 4. That's pretty up there.
--------------------
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:53:00 -
[18]
damn, seems it's necessary serious studying time to get understand the market.
Will take a look, I always like to get the reasons, not just follow the path. "check the red line, compare this points, etc."
I DO want to undestand it! :) |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:38:00 -
[19]
Reading the graph is not an exact science, since there are a lot of factors that might be in play, but here are some thoughts:
Originally by: Loaby
The green line and the red line are at the same level (very close together) over several months.
As it looks: median price is steady. Perhaps not many new people getting into that market? Probably not an item that has been directly affected by a patch in the time period you're viewing.
Originally by: Loaby
The bottom of the Donchian Channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period. The yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines.
The median price is tending toward the daily lows, so perhaps most units being sold to sell orders; some sales are at the substantially higher price, probably from sell orders.
Originally by: Loaby
The vertical yellow lines are almost always above the yellow dot ending at the top of the channel.
Recall that the vertical yellow lines define the channel: the highest price of the last 5 days is the top of the channel, the lowest price of the last 5 days is the bottom.
Originally by: Loaby
The price is constant, the traded amount/day isn't.
Perhaps some weekly cycling (higher sales volumes closer to the weekends, when there are higher login counts), perhaps an indication of periodic or aperiodic activity (e.g., large alliance-scale operations nearby on some days but not on others). |
Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:45:00 -
[20]
ok, thanks. but...
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Loaby
The bottom of the Donchian Channel is almost identical with those lines but the top of the channel is constantly way above the lines in the whole period. The yellow dots are always close to the red/green lines.
The median price is tending toward the daily lows, so perhaps most units being sold to sell orders; some sales are at the substantially higher price, probably from sell orders.
doesnt this have to be 'buy' ? |
Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Corpia Sin
Market graph really useful?
Yes. It shows if the price of an item is on the rise / fall / stationary, and to what extent. Also shows if the market for an item is steady/fluxuating. Can be used to decipher the difference in buy / sell orders and if sellers are regularly selling to buy orders or posting there own sell orders.
It has a multitude of functions, the best advice I can offer is to understand what everything on it means and then predict how the market is going to move.
I.E. People are selling to buy orders = they are happy with the price the goods are selling at so it is likely to see a fall in price. ( can be seen when 20/5day avg is close to lower end of donchain channel )
Huge spike in someone buying from sell orders? Check volumes, this could be market manipulation at work.
just a few examples.
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Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:22:00 -
[22]
even after reading this thread i doesnt seem to be able to see whether people sell to buy orders or buy from sell orders.
hell, i¦m usually not that stupid in rl
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Mr Gecko
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Mr Gecko on 05/02/2009 23:43:03
Originally by: Loaby
even after reading this thread i doesnt seem to be able to see whether people sell to buy orders or buy from sell orders.
hell, i¦m usually not that stupid in rl
Nah, youre not stupid:)
If you want to buy something immediatly you will want to check the sellorders that others have put up. If you want to buy something at a certain price you can put up youre own buyorder, however it may take a while before someone wants to sell the item to you at that price.
With sellorders its the opposite, if you want to sell something you can first check the buyorders that have been put up on the market, however if you believe that you can get a higher price you can put up your own sellorder at the price of your own choosing. If anyone else believe thats a fair price then they will buy from your sellorder.
Short version; you buy from other ppls sellorders and your own buyorders. You sell to other ppls buyorders and from your own sellorders.
Hope I got that right.
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Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:11:00 -
[24]
what a long post for a simple joke |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.06 04:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Loaby
Doesn't [that typo] have to be 'buy'?
Yes, sorry, I meant that if the median price tends toward the low end of the daily range, this might be an indication that most units were sold to standing buy orders. My thoughts were probably running ahead of my typing (i.e., to the sentence following that typo).
It looks like you got my meaning though, so I would probably not call you 'stupid'.
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Mr Gecko
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Posted - 2009.02.06 09:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Loaby
what a long post for a simple joke
Figured you were new so I was just trying to be nice and help you, no need to be a ***** about it. |
Red Flood
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Posted - 2009.02.06 23:24:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Every trade I make or deal I find involves use of the graph.
Well, let me rephrase that. Every profitable trade I've ever done has been via use of the graph.
I pay the most attention to the median price (yellow boxies) and the median price spread (vertical yellow lines).
This^^ |
Loaby
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:27:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Loaby on 07/02/2009 00:36:40
is that true: the green line trend is "stronger" than the red one?
edit: ok, found the answer myself. man, reading and learning all that stuff linked by Thoraemond is some kind of work, esp when english is not your native language |
Wreyn Sevet
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Posted - 2009.02.07 02:31:00 -
[29]
No specific questions -- I just want to remark that this is a very useful thread. Thanks for clearing all of these issues up guys. |
Corpia Sin
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Posted - 2009.02.08 02:00:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Corpia Sin on 08/02/2009 02:02:37
Edited by: Corpia Sin on 08/02/2009 02:01:55
I have a further question about the market Table not the graph. I hear people talking about the ability to see how many items are sold a day. So is that information in the table ? If so how do you read it?
For example the market table is as follows for Large F-S9 Shield Induction mod in the Essence region. I am searching region to sell off my buy orders that I placed in Jita. So I want to find a region that sells higher than I bought for and moves fast.
[Date]______[ORDERS]_______[Quanity]____[Low]______[High]_____[Average]
2009.02.08____24______________34_______115,211____354,890______324,213
Does this mean there were 24 sales out of 34 items? What does the Low, High and Average indicate?
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Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.08 03:29:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Corpia Sin
[T]he market table is as follows for Large F-S9 Shield Induction mod in the Essence region.
Date, Orders, Quantity, Low, High, Average
2009-02-08, 24, 34, 115211, 354890, 324213
Does this mean there were 24 sales out of 34 items? What does the Low, High and Average indicate?
34 units that module of were sold in 24 transactions.
(Recall that every transaction is necessarily the product of matching a buy order to a sell order, so the true number of orders involved is actually double the number of completed transactions.)
Low, High and Average indicate the low, high and median prices at which those 34 units were sold, with the caveat that I explained earlier in this thread:
Originally by: Thoraemond
The reported daily high and low prices (in the table and on the graph) are 'massaged', i.e., they exclude extreme outlier values. As far as I know, the precise formula for determining which extreme values are excluded as outliers has not been determined players or made public by CCP.
Current intra-day numbers for the median and highs and lows may not match the eventually-computed historical numbers for at least two reasons: (i) the present day may not be complete, so the values can shift, and (ii) the current intra-day numbers may be computed differently than the historical numbers.
Here the Average is closer to the High, so (without double-checking by looking at the standing orders in the region) it looks likely that more units are being bought from standing sell orders than are being sold to standing buy orders.
These numbers are current intra-day numbers, so the second part of my caveat applies. When this day's historical figures are calculated (at downtime on 2009-02-09, to my understanding), the Low might rise, the High might drop, and the Average might shift either up or down, even if no more transactions occur between now and then. This would be a result of the removal of outliers and the calculation of the median price to fill the Average column, rather than whatever calculation fills the column while the day is in progress. |
Chainfall
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Posted - 2009.02.08 03:35:00 -
[32]
Quote:
[Date]______[ORDERS]_______[Quantity]____[Low]______[High]_____[Average] 2009.02.08____24______________34_______115,211____354,890______324,213 Does this mean there were 24 sales out of 34 items? What does the Low, High and Average indicate?
In this example, there were 24 individual orders which totaled 34 units. I'll explain a bit further in a made up example example;
Say Orders = 3
Quantity = 4
& Item equals X
----
Person A purchases two units of item X;
This counts as one order, and two quantity.
Person B purchases one unit of item X;
This counts as one order, and one quantity.
And Say person B purchases one more unit of X on that same day;
This counts as one order, and one quantity.
Adding this all up we get;
Orders = Person A's orders + Persons B's orders
= 1+3
Quantity = Person A's purchase quantity + Person B's purchase quantity
=2+(1+1)
---------------
Okay, now for the cost of item X
Person A bought his 2 units of X at 1500 isk per unit.
&
Person B bought his 2 units of X at 2000 isk per unit.
---
The low price in this market for item X equals 1500 isk per unit
The high price in this market for item X equals 2000 isk per unit
The average for this market would be;
(Sum of the prices of all items purchased)/ (number of items purchased)
So it would look something like this;
Average price for item X =(1500+1500+2000+2000)/4
= 1750isk per unit
------
Hope that helpssss ya make da' iskies = )
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Corpia Sin
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Posted - 2009.02.08 03:42:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Corpia Sin on 08/02/2009 03:46:04
Ah! This helps so much. Thanks. Yea this will definately give you an idea of how much to inject into a market without flooding it.
Great |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.08 03:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Chainfall
Average price = (1500 + 1500 + 2000 + 2000) / 4 = 1750 ISK per unit
In this example, the median would be 1750, but your calculation is wrong: you've describe the calculation of the arithmetic mean price, but the information recorded (at least for historical data, as described earlier in this thread) is the median price.
As you may recall from elementary maths class, the calculation for the median price has two cases, one for when there are an odd number of values (median = the middle value when they are sorted in order of magnitude), the other for when there are an even number of values (median = the mean of the two middle values when they are sorted in order of magnitude).
In your example, there are an even number of values, so the median is calculated as the mean of 1500 and 2000, which is indeed 1750.
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Chainfall
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Posted - 2009.02.08 04:40:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Originally by: ChainfallAverage price = (1500 + 1500 + 2000 + 2000) / 4 = 1750 ISK per unit In this example, the median would be 1750, but your calculation is wrong: you've describe the calculation of the arithmetic mean price...
My calculation is not 'wrong' it's very right. Average price = (1500 + 1500 + 2000 + 2000) / 4 = 1750 ISK per unit. You are right, however, that the median would be 1750 isk per unit. And I do recall from my classes what the calculation for the median price is, thank you. But to put your mind at ease, I'll type out the median price for my example;
(1500+2000)/2 = 1750
Sorry, I'm just being facetious.
I do believe you are wrong in what average calculation is used for the table. I believe it is the arithmetic mean and not the median for the average calc. I'll put up an example from my own experience. ( don't mind the horrible job at editing, I mocked it up really quick to respond to you)
Linkage
In this picture, I'm trading y-t8's. I want you to look at the date of 2009.02.06 specifically. There is only one person in this market, and it's me so it's a perfect example to use. Looking at the table in the right, you'll see that on that date orders =4 and quantity =9
Now looking at the left hand side (my wallet), you'll see that I made all those sales and you can see each one of those sales. Also it is important to note that I have two sell orders in the station; one for 6 million and one for 5 million. So here's the break down ( top to bottom);
y-t8 - 2 @ 6 m = 12m
y-t8 - 1 @ 5 m = 5m
y-t8 - 5 @ 6 m = 30m
Y-t8 - 1 @ 6 m = 6m
-------------------------
-------9 units total-----------------
so now we're off to calculate the 'average' for the chart, which is equal to 5,888,888.89
from top to bottom;
average equals =[(6+6)+(5)+(6+6+6+6+6)+(6)/9]=5.888....
The median for this example would be....6m
So why does the table to the right say......5.8m
(you don't really need to answer that, btw. and no, I don't want you to point me to your post again. /rolls eyes/ |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.08 05:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Chainfall
The median for this example would be 6 MISK, so why does the table to the right say 5.8 MISK?
You're right. Thank you for the evidence and correction.
I was under the impression that the data on the table matched the data on the graph, and on the graph the only average shown is clearly labelled 'Median'. Can you please check to see whether it is in fact the mean or the median value that appears on the graph that covers the same data as that table?
Also, with the potential for a long tail to the right on these numbers and the resulting skewness, median is a better choice as a measure of central tendency than mean, so that probably reinforced my (erroneous!) assumption that the type of average used in the table was the median.
There was a thread from roughly a month or two ago in which someone was asserted that either the historical or intra-day calculations were wrong, and his follow-up (from a petition) indicated that someone CCP-side was going to look into validating the computations. I don't recall reading of a fix in any recent patch notes, but maybe something changed?
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Chainfall
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Posted - 2009.02.08 05:19:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Chainfall on 08/02/2009 05:25:05
Quote:
Can you please check to see whether it is in fact the mean or the median value that appears on the graph that covers the same data as that table?
Yeah no problem.
Linkage
As one can see, the 'average' for the table is indeed the 'median day price' on the graph. The median day price for feb 6th is located between 6m and 5.8m
Glad we got that cleared up = ) |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.08 05:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Chainfall
The 'Average' for the table is indeed the 'Median day price' on the graph. The Median Day Price for Feb. 6th is located between 6 MISK and 5.8 MISK.
Thanks! Looks like the calculation has changed, then. I've submitted a bug report (with your screenshots) to get those labels corrected.
Calculating the current intra-day mean after each transaction is computationally easier than determining the intra-day median after each transaction, so I'd have to guess that's the reason for the change to mean. |
Maelos
Caldari
Omega Directorate
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:51:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Maelos on 08/02/2009 20:53:33
Hi all. Is it possible to link to this thread in the MD resource thread? I have been slowly learning about trading and am finding this thread particularly useful for learning the technical analysis aspect of the market.
Thank you all for your help in countless threads, they have been great reads. Hopefully one day I can contribute more to the forum and possibly to the specific players in game for their advice.
See you all online.
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CAPTAIN FAECES
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:00:00 -
[40]
Edited by: CAPTAIN FAECES on 09/02/2009 10:03:51
To Corpia sin: The graphs are pretty easy to understand, just don't be intimidated by them.
To Thoraemond: With your Wikipedia link you suggest that the moving average in EVE is a weighted moving average ... is it? I assumed it was a simple moving average.
Edit: I read a little more in this thread, and jesus christ I hope the moving average isn't actually a moving median ...
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Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CAPTAIN FAECES
To Thoraemond: With your Wikipedia link you suggest that the moving average in EVE is a weighted moving average ... is it? I assumed it was a simple moving average.
The article I get when I click my link is entitled 'Moving average' and it begins 'In statistics, a moving average, also called a rolling average and sometimes a running average, is used to analyze a set of data points by creating a series of averages of different subsets of the full data set.' That's the concept and article to which I was pointing.
There is discussion of weighted moving averages in that article, but I don't think I suggested anywhere that that's what the graph in EVE's market uses. |
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:30:00 -
[42]
Ah, I think I see what you mean now. It looks like my original internet search for 'moving average' led me to a Wikipedia redirect entitled 'Weighted moving average' that points to the 'Moving average' article, and I pasted the redirect's URL into my comment.
To be clear, I was thinking that that people might want to read the linked article, not the URL. |
CAPTAIN FAECES
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:41:00 -
[43]
Thanks for clarifying that.
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CAPTAIN FAECES
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:59:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Chainfall
The 'Average' for the table is indeed the 'Median day price' on the graph. The Median Day Price for Feb. 6th is located between 6 MISK and 5.8 MISK.
Thanks! Looks like the calculation has changed, then. I've submitted a bug report (with your screenshots) to get those labels corrected.
Calculating the current intra-day mean after each transaction is computationally easier than determining the intra-day median after each transaction, so I'd have to guess that's the reason for the change to mean.
I think that's just a coincedence, the average from the table and the daily median often don't match at all. |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.02.09 14:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Corpia Sin
Edited by: Corpia Sin on 04/02/2009 03:32:49
Originally by: SencneS
I tell people who want to get into trading that no one is going to give them any info unless that info is to the benefit of the giver.
However I like to be a little helpful so here is a tip I've used before.
When the little Green Line on the Graph page is above the little Red Line... BUY BUY BUY!!!!!
When the little Red Line on the Graph page is above the little Green Line... SELL SELL SELL!!!!!
When the fat brown boxes behind the two lines are huge, someone is manipulating that item.
When the little yellow dots are all in a line and steady, No one manipulating that market and there is probably hardly any competition.
When then Little Red Line and Little Green Line are about the same, And the Brown box is really small, and the yellow dots are all in a row and you have a huge surplus of that item, Load em up into a hauler, haul them to noobie stations and deposit gifts for people because becoming the "Gift god" is what made Chribba a god amongst men (Hi Chribby).
There is your indispensable market tip from SencneS.
Well, my question is in regard to this post. Is it necessary to have a working knowledge (and a math degree) of the the market graph to be successful? - the lines, boxes what do they all really mean?
She says its indispensable information but I find it a generic statement that could not even begin to shed light on the market graph ui. I see that in the game the red line is labeled as Moving Avg (5d) - whatever that means. And the other items have labels such as Donchian channel and median day price. Whatever this is so cryptic.
So does the red line = high sell orders?
So does the green line = low buy orders?
So if the red line is way over the green that means there are extremely high sell orders with very low buy orders equaling a great potential for profit? If so I can normally surmise this information just from looking at the details in the market data of x item.
Does this graph averaging regional, system or galaxy wide information?
Still have no idea what the yellow dots, brown boxes or green graph at the bottom suggest.
And what is manipulating the system?
I seem to be in a critical mood this evening... but holy crap man, you seriously can't just type some of these things into google before coming here? You have to make *some* effort yourself. Do you seek help when you need to take a crap or remember your own name?
Some of the terms may be confusing, but I'm sorry, if you can't deduce for yourself what 'moving 5-day average ' means, you have no business looking at the market window in the first place.
Seriously. It means exactly what it friggin says.
And even if you can't figure it out, go to google and type in:
"what is a 'moving average'?"
And it will be explained for you at great length. Use that tiny shriveled raisin you call a brain for once, you might be surprised what it can do.
You should only need to post here if there are discrepancies between google-acquired knowledge and the way the game behaves.
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Corpia Sin
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Posted - 2009.02.09 20:00:00 -
[46]
I have done extensive research in preparing my career in eve. The amount of concise information about the graph was either infrequent or cryptic. I have since learned to understand it thoroughly and was also interested in how others used it and for what purpose. I think this thread has been helpful even though there is some information regarding the market graph in one of the stickies which I found after making the post. Which I take responsibility for. Mods are welcome to lock this thread if they feel it has violated forum protocol.
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Chainfall
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Posted - 2009.02.09 20:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CAPTAIN FAECES
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Chainfall
The 'Average' for the table is indeed the 'Median day price' on the graph. The Median Day Price for Feb. 6th is located between 6 MISK and 5.8 MISK.
Thanks! Looks like the calculation has changed, then. I've submitted a bug report (with your screenshots) to get those labels corrected.
Calculating the current intra-day mean after each transaction is computationally easier than determining the intra-day median after each transaction, so I'd have to guess that's the reason for the change to mean.
I think that's just a coincedence, the average from the table and the daily median often don't match at all.
Huh? show me an instance where you have all the data, and have calculated the mean before you make that assertion.
'pics or it didn't happen'
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CAPTAIN FAECES
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Posted - 2009.02.09 20:35:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Chainfall
Originally by: CAPTAIN FAECES
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Chainfall
The 'Average' for the table is indeed the 'Median day price' on the graph. The Median Day Price for Feb. 6th is located between 6 MISK and 5.8 MISK.
Thanks! Looks like the calculation has changed, then. I've submitted a bug report (with your screenshots) to get those labels corrected.
Calculating the current intra-day mean after each transaction is computationally easier than determining the intra-day median after each transaction, so I'd have to guess that's the reason for the change to mean.
I think that's just a coincedence, the average from the table and the daily median often don't match at all.
Huh? show me an instance where you have all the data, and have calculated the mean before you make that assertion.
'pics or it didn't happen'
I was happily on my way to do that because of your request, but I aborted upon discovering that I was utterly wrong. I must have simply mixed up the dates, sorry about that  |
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