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Amy Nirvana Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.08 16:21:00 - [1] I was looking at the character forum and saw a lot of price checks that were going unanswered. I did a little price checking and thought I'd share. Keep in mind with this data that it doesn't differentiate how well placed the skills are, the type of character (PvP, PvE, Miner, etc), security status or any variables apart from the final ISK price and the listed amount of SP. I did my best to deduct and high-value items from the final price - a Phoenix and a Jump Freighter for example. Graph of Yesterday's Prices The forum doesn't allow the use of tables in its BB Code unfortunately. I took 42 data samples over the last 10 pages of the Character Bazaar listing the Character's SP and the final Buyout price. With that, I calculated the ISK/SP for each data object and applied a standard deviation to come up with the following: The mean (average) ISK per SP for this sample is: 315 The standard deviation for this sample is: 78.798 This means that if you were planning on buying a character, you would multiply the character's SP by 236.2 and then by 393.8. This will give you the range that 75% of all sales in the Bazaar fall under. 5 Mil SP = 1.18Bn - 1.97Bn 10 Mil SP = 2.36Bn - 3.93Bn 15 Mil SP = 3.54Bn - 5.90Bn 20 Mil SP = 4.71Bn - 7.87Bn 25 Mil SP = 5.89Bn - 9.83Bn 30 Mil SP = 7.07Bn - 11.80Bn 40 Mil SP = 9.43Bn - 15.76Bn 50 Mil SP = 11.79Bn - 19.67Bn 60 Mil SP = 14.14Bn - 23.60Bn 80 Mil SP = 18.86Bn - 31.47Bn 100 Mil SP = 23.57Bn - 39.33Bn I have an excel sheet with each data object linked back to the forum and a little calc to determine reasonable prices. The ones that didn't fall under these prices were usually listed as quick sales and fell well under the average; or had some particularly impressive skills and matched the FotM. One that went well above the average was a 57Mil SP Cap pilot that could fly a Leviathan and pretty much all Gallente ships up to the Erebus.
Amy Nirvana Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.08 16:24:00 - [2] reserved
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.08 17:25:00 - [3] I think the average price for a character last year was about 200 isk/sp. I figured the price would go up as it became more expensive to raise alts (because of GTC changes). I see the price has gone up, but I wonder if anyone has any other thoughts on why the price has risen.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.08 18:01:00 - [4] Ghost training also has pushed price up since you can no longer put an alt into a 60 day training skill and forget about the account more or less. Now you have to keep the account active which obviously raises the price a bit.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.02.09 06:15:00 - [5] I thought ghost training nerf would've brought the price down. More players were getting rid of their char for that very reason and I thought as a result of the market being flooded with chars, price would go down?? Eve is weird... 10% for Returning Customers
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.02.09 06:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Brock Nelson I thought ghost training nerf would've brought the price down. More players were getting rid of their char for that very reason and I thought as a result of the market being flooded with chars, price would go down?? Eve is weird... A lot of people consolidated the accounts. I personally know of 5 people who did just that. Took their "Mains" on their account, paid the transfer fee and now have them all on one account instead of multiple. Sure they lose the ability to train two skills, but as most of them pointed out, they got the skills they wanted and are just training them because they can, not because they needed to. I actually think 60GTC and Removal of Ghost training will hurt CCP in the long run anyway. I know five people who had at least two paying accounts, now they only have one. I wonder if they would have kept multiple accounts going if CCP just removed Ghost training but still allowed 30/60/90GTCs. We'll never know. Then again kudos to CCP for getting at least $125 out of my friends LOL, Can someone say Short term gain vs long term reward?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.09 06:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Brock Nelson I thought ghost training nerf would've brought the price down. More players were getting rid of their char for that very reason and I thought as a result of the market being flooded with chars, price would go down?? Eve is weird... It does push supply downwards though. I was one of those that consolidated between 4 accounts down to 2 now, bringing most of my 'mains' as it were into my secondary account.
Rekatan Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies	Posted - 2009.02.09 06:57:00 - [8] If you don't mind investing in +5s and maxxing the applicable learning skills before moving on to anything, the cost of a plex (particularly right now!) is still well below the value of the sp. I'm currently about to move up to a 4th account, as the way I see it, as long as the char is being used for something it's a sound investment down the road.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:19:00 - [9] I'm just wondering how long until CCP let's you buy extra SP for your account? I mean why not? You can already buy characters. Cut out the middle man, and let me buy that damn Mining Barge V or other similary crappy long skill trains. More money for CCP.
Rekatan Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Rekatan on 09/02/2009 07:31:27 Originally by: nether void I'm just wondering how long until CCP let's you buy extra SP for your account? I mean why not? You can already buy characters. Cut out the middle man, and let me buy that damn Mining Barge V or other similary crappy long skill trains. More money for CCP. Heh, the day that happens is the day I quit playing. This function supports the free market, gives an added investment opportunity. Very few players out of the entire community actually buy their first character, they're more likely to use it as a function for trading alts. Buying SP on the other hand would defeat the entire appeal of eve, since EVERYONE would use it.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Rekatan Originally by: nether void I'm just wondering how long until CCP let's you buy extra SP for your account? I mean why not? You can already buy characters. Cut out the middle man, and let me buy that damn Mining Barge V or other similary crappy long skill trains. More money for CCP. Heh, the day that happens is the day I quit playing. This function supports the free market, gives an added investment opportunity. Very few players out of the entire community actually buy their first character, they more use it as a function for trading alts. Buying SP on the other hand would defeat the entire appeal of eve, since EVERYONE would use it. Maybe they could sell an SP equiv to PLEX. That way the market could manipulate it. Would that be cool? Cause character purchase is really the same thing. I would definitely buy some SP. Probably not buy a character, because I like the process of building my own, but yeah I might buy some SP, because I'm getting to the point where lots of things I want to train for are 40+ day trains in total. =( Screw that.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Rekatan Heh, the day that happens is the day I quit playing. I second this... although I said the same thing about warp to zero. I think I'm the only person in Eve who hates warp to zero.
Rekatan Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies	Posted - 2009.02.09 08:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Stardust CEO Originally by: Rekatan Heh, the day that happens is the day I quit playing. I second this... although I said the same thing about warp to zero. I think I'm the only person in Eve who hates warp to zero. You still need a friendly to warp to. It's not as if you can warp to a 225KM sniper and nullify their range. You need an inty to close the distance and then you can warp in.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.09 12:17:00 - [14] Originally by: nether void I'm just wondering how long until CCP let's you buy extra SP for your account? I mean why not? You can already buy characters. Cut out the middle man, and let me buy that damn Mining Barge V or other similary crappy long skill trains. More money for CCP. Thats been said it'll never happen. Changes with some major loss however is still on the table as a possibility.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.02.09 14:00:00 - [15] Originally by: nether void I'm just wondering how long until CCP let's you buy extra SP for your account? I mean why not? You can already buy characters. Cut out the middle man, and let me buy that damn Mining Barge V or other similary crappy long skill trains. More money for CCP. Will never, ever, happen. It's not even close to being the same as buying a character. When you buy a character, sure you are getting a thing that comes with a certain amount of SP, but that does nothing to improve your main, and you don't get the opportunity to sit down and decide exactly where the SP is allocated. Frankly I'm unable to imagine the tortured mental process that could come up with a statement like yours.
Manalapan Dynasty Banking	Posted - 2009.02.09 14:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Rekatan Originally by: Stardust CEO Originally by: Rekatan Heh, the day that happens is the day I quit playing. I second this... although I said the same thing about warp to zero. I think I'm the only person in Eve who hates warp to zero. You still need a friendly to warp to. It's not as if you can warp to a 225KM sniper and nullify their range. You need an inty to close the distance and then you can warp in. No as in you could not warp to a gate or a station closer than 15km. That was the good old days where you actually needed to spend time preparing to move anything setting up the bookmarks and such to move long distances at a nice speed. Of course I guess they got rid of them because the number of bookmarks was a pain on the server. More on the characters though the increase in the price of characters might also have a correlation to the growing value of GTC (in terms of ISK). Just a thought that I don't feel like elaborating on since I bet you guys see what I am saying.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Tiirae Frankly I'm unable to imagine the tortured mental process that could come up with a statement like yours. Is this CAOD now? lol Damn, dude, chill out a bit. Take a breather! IMO, buying a character is already buying SP, so I would welcome the ability to buy SP with RL cash. You don't agree, although I can't see how you don't see how it's almost exactly the same. Buy a character with Exhumer V or just buy the SP and put it in Exhumer V. Same difference. Although I guess people are worried about newer players having characters with as much or more SP as themselves? But they can already do that by just buying a new 'main', so I don't really see much difference. Besides, it would probably equate to 30 days of SP for like 15 or 20 bucks. I wonder how many people would actually buy that? I'm not sure I would even do that. Now if you could buy an SP in game item you could apply to your account, I could see that market taking off very quickly. Just like the PLEX system. Again I don't really see the issue. I can go out and buy a character with 55 mil SP with exactly the skills I want trained (cap pilot and manufacturer, lets say). It already exists. What I'm saying is why not just cut out the middle guy and sell SP directly as in game items, like PLEX? If you can sell your character for ISK, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to just sell SP for ISK that people buy for real money from CCP. It's the same thing, only more dynamic, and would probably be a lot more costly anyway (because you can allocate however you see fit). Ah or maybe the people getting upset are the ones who have character farms?
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:35:00 - [18] The "we're getting rid of bookmarks" is the lamest copout I've ever heard. All they had to do was make 'warp to within 15km' drop you at a random point 15km from gate, rather than always coming out of warp 15km short. Had they done this, allowing warp to within 15km to drop you above, below, or at any point around the gate, bookmarks wouldn't have been functional. Warp to zero was one step toward dumbing Eve down and painting it pink. They could even have allowed a 'warp precision' skill, reducing how far you come in from gate by say... 2km/level... instead, they decided to just let everyone warp to zero.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:39:00 - [19] As far as buying sp goes, if you bought sp you'd be generating it from nothing. If you buy a character those sp have been trained. It comes with an age-appropriate character and probably has a history and a reputation. Even if it's never undocked, a 3 year old character with 0 standings and no corps has a certain image behind it.
MinmatarCitizen100223041	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Stardust CEO The "we're getting rid of bookmarks" is the lamest copout I've ever heard. All they had to do was make 'warp to within 15km' drop you at a random point 15km from gate, rather than always coming out of warp 15km short. Had they done this, allowing warp to within 15km to drop you above, below, or at any point around the gate, bookmarks wouldn't have been functional. Warp to zero was one step toward dumbing Eve down and painting it pink. They could even have allowed a 'warp precision' skill, reducing how far you come in from gate by say... 2km/level... instead, they decided to just let everyone warp to zero. This should still be pushed as a solution.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.10 02:01:00 - [21] I pushed, and pushed, and pushed for this... random landing 15km from gate combined with a warp precision skill to warp closer. No one listened, I was repeatedly ignored. No one ever stated a single argument against what I was proposing, but no one ever supported me, either. I was lost in 152 pages of whines about getting rid of lag and killing piracy. I gave up.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:12:00 - [22] Stardust, let me know when you get blown up in low-sec cuz you chose to warp within 15km of the gate.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:31:00 - [23] Brock, I really didn't expect you of all people to make such a ridiculous statement. Of course I use the mechanics as they exist. I do, however, feel that making Eve safer/easier/lazier is a step in the wrong direction. Travel used to mean something. People didn't move around as much. Lowsec used to be much more dangerous. You don't have to agree with me, but please refrain from those silly statements.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:49:00 - [24] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 10/02/2009 04:50:07 My post isn't meant to disagree with you, but rather to troll. Everybody's got opinion of how space travel should be like, I kind of agree with your grudge and the need to have a skill related to how close you warp into the gate. Everyone got a wishlist of skills that should be in the game. Edit: I should mention this but for every proposal, there should be a solid list of benefits. Your idea of having warp-in to 0 km has no benefit, not even having skills to reduce warp in distance would help.
Daphne Eveningstar	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:54:00 - [25] Edited by: Daphne Eveningstar on 10/02/2009 04:55:17 Edited by: Daphne Eveningstar on 10/02/2009 04:54:32 I totally (kinda) dig the idea of being able to do something to extract skill points and resell them as market items. I wrote a long winded post about it awhile back: Anyway, it would really do bizarre things to the economy and although I'm still intrigued by the idea.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:08:00 - [26] Its not like the warp to zero matters much anymore, smart yarrs are utilizing the heavy dic to its full efficiency and effectively shutting down entire systems that are even three jump nexus points.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:35:00 - [27] My complaint about WTZ is less about piracy and more about changing the entire feel of travel. I remember having a "home." Auvergne, first. Then Cat. Then Costolle :) Now, it's no big deal to travel 20 jumps. I know not everyone agrees with me. I'm the minority. Not the first time :P
Amy Nirvana Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:14:00 - [28] Edited by: Amy Nirvana on 10/02/2009 06:15:35 Originally by: nether void Besides, it would probably equate to 30 days of SP for like 15 or 20 bucks. I wonder how many people would actually buy that? I'm not sure I would even do that. Now if you could buy an SP in game item you could apply to your account, I could see that market taking off very quickly. Just like the PLEX system. I think the price you're quoting is pretty far off. Consider that every time you sell a character, you have a $20.00 USD transfer fee. You have the monthly ~$17.50 for the account charges that the character is being trained on. Assuming you train cybernetics and learning skills first so that you're getting about 2000 SP/Hour: Base: 900,000 SP Amount trained monthly: 1,460,000 SP ISK / SP: 236.2 to 393.8 Cost per month: $17.50 Transfer fee: $20.00 Your ROI should look something like: 1-Month: $37.50 for 2,360,000 SP = 556,000,000 - 928,000,000 ISK 2-Month: $55.00 for 3,820,000 SP = 900,000,000 - 1,500,000,000 ISK 3-Month: $72.49 for 5,280,000 SP = 1,200,000,000 - 2,100,000,000 ISK 6-Month: $124.97 for 9,660,000 SP = 2,300,000,000 - 3,800,000,000 ISK 12-Month: $229.94 for 18,420,000 SP = 4,300,000,000 - 7,200,000,000 ISK My numbers may be off somewhat since your SP/HR will be lower in the 1st month. 2000 SP/Hour is derived from someone with virtually maxed out learning skills and +4 implants. And depending on the skills trained vs your base attributes. I still feel that this is a fair rough representation. Compare this to the GTC market, and you'll be paying about $85.00 for the 1.5 Bn ISK you could get by training a char for 2 months for $55.00. This, I imagine, is the extra price you pay for instant ISK. To tie this back to the SP market idea; You're suggesting $15-20 for an instant ~1,460,000 SP: 73,000 - 97,333 SP/$ The current character market charges: ~62,933 (1 month), ~72,837 (3-month), ~77,298 (6-month) SP/$ It would take 6-months of training time in order to start matching the instant $/SP @ $20/month you're suggesting. I think the price would have to be closer to $35/insta month of training if that were the case. Alternatively, it wouldn't be too bad an idea to have intensive schools in-game, where you dock and lock your character in for a set period of time (say 3-15 days) and get a little 5-25% training speed bonus for a set price. Or, you know, not changing the mechanic at all. As for the Jump-to-0km argument that seems to have hijacked the thread; I'd much rather have the old mechanic back. It's nice and convenient to be able to jump to 0, but it makes fighting so much more difficult. You should have to prep before a dangerous journey.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:23:00 - [29] To get away from WTZ, and back to character bazaar prices... I'm against buying sp directly. Looking at it rationally, I'm not sure why I'm so adamantly against it (even on a very limited scale), it just feels wrong. Also, a shift in prices for characters was guaranteed. It used to cost me 380-400m isk for 90 day GTCs. Even without the affect of losing ghost training, you can see that the same 90 days of skill training now costs over twice as much.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2009.02.10 11:12:00 - [30] Nice statistics Amy; thanks :) Originally by: nether void buying a character is already buying SP, so I would welcome the ability It's not quite the same, although it is close along the same slippery path. World isn't black and white; even if CCP did wrong thing by legalising character sales, it is not the same thing to go all the way down. Remember that when CCP allowed character trading, it already existed through ebay. Like it would be best if nobody used harmful drugs, but if that doesn't work, perhaps better that the state sells those instead of mafias. IMHO games work best when we don't have influece of RL aspecs, like the ability/willingness to spend extra to gain relative boost to others. So far CCP has been willing to maintain those things that keep the game good, even if it hurts their short term income (including not yielding to 'less hurting deaths', or allowing non-paid training). -Lasse
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Heikki Nice statistics Amy; thanks :) Originally by: nether void buying a character is already buying SP, so I would welcome the ability It's not quite the same, although it is close along the same slippery path. World isn't black and white; even if CCP did wrong thing by legalising character sales, it is not the same thing to go all the way down. Remember that when CCP allowed character trading, it already existed through ebay. Like it would be best if nobody used harmful drugs, but if that doesn't work, perhaps better that the state sells those instead of mafias. IMHO games work best when we don't have influece of RL aspecs, like the ability/willingness to spend extra to gain relative boost to others. So far CCP has been willing to maintain those things that keep the game good, even if it hurts their short term income (including not yielding to 'less hurting deaths', or allowing non-paid training). -Lasse TL:DR version of the below wall of text: I'm getting tired of my training now taking 30+ days a pop for new ships etc, so would love a way to be able to work harder in game (pay ISK) to get more SP Yeah that's basically my thinking. They've already got paid SP in the form of character transfers and legal character bazaar. I also see the point of 'hey we can't really stop ebay, so why don't we just become the ebay?' It's a sort of dangerous path to travel down, because the next logical step is to just sell SP directly. I'm a pretty 'old school' gamer in that I don't think RL money should buy extra anything in-game, so I don't think I would buy SP for RL cash. Now if there was a way to pay an NPC with ISK for some additional SP that would be great, or buy an SP PLEX, for lack of a better term, I would probably do that too. I know someone else bought that with RL cash, but since I'm buying it with my in-game work I would be ok with doing it, because I did the work with my character to gain extra SP (kind of like implants are ISK for more SP). I probably wouldn't care much about this if I was more willing to buy characters and then add them to my account, but the 'old schooler' in me doesn't like how meta that feels. At the same time I don't train my alts because I'll just train my main instead since he's the one with the best implants and learning skills. I'm at the point in the game where it's taking a month or more to do something 'new' (fly new ship or something like that), and so I'm losing the fun that training brings to this game. I would love if there was some way I could work harder in-game to skill up faster. A hybrid system where there's a flat amount of SP everyone gains everyday just like it is now, but I could work harder some how to reduce that 30 day train into like...20 or something, I don't know. I figure selling SP seems like the logical approach, since there are already character sales. --------------------
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Stardust CEO My complaint about WTZ is less about piracy and more about changing the entire feel of travel. I remember having a "home." Auvergne, first. Then Cat. Then Costolle :) Now, it's no big deal to travel 20 jumps. I know not everyone agrees with me. I'm the minority. Not the first time :P Really? Auvergne was my first home too :D You should move to 0.0. With bubbles, it doesn't matter what range someone warps to
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.11 01:01:00 - [33] Originally by: The Slagh Really? Auvergne was my first home too :D You should move to 0.0. With bubbles, it doesn't matter what range someone warps to I recently (within the last couple of weeks) moved back out to 0.0 after spending the last six months in empire. I don't have a lot of time, because of RL things like work and school, but I'm enjoying myself.
SiJira	Posted - 2009.02.11 16:23:00 - [34] ghost training might have boosted character prices but now with the respecialization likely to pass into the new expansion you will see lower prices again Trashed sig, Shark was here
Ms Bax Union Of EVE	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:40:00 - [35] Thanks for information. Very helpful. Now, a question. WHat do you think will happen to char prices with the new skill queue?
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:22:00 - [36] Edited by: Stardust CEO on 13/02/2009 17:22:47 I don't think it will have any effect. Edit - used wrong hominym
Ms Bax Union Of EVE	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Stardust CEO Edited by: Stardust CEO on 13/02/2009 17:22:47 I don't think it will have any effect. Edit - used wrong hominym Why? I belive more people will find it easier to train up alts and therefore drive down prices. At least for chars with less than 10M skillpoints
Forceflow Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Ms Bax Why? I belive more people will find it easier to train up alts and therefore drive down prices. At least for chars with less than 10M skillpoints Because the SP of a character still represents the time (and money) invested in training a character since the time spent training is not affected by the skill queue. What would affect it is the proposed lowering of overall SP for new toons and the x2 speed of gaining SP until the 1.6mil cap. While there should be a spike in character prices when M10 arrives, over time we should see the price of characters with full learning skill sets completed dropping.
ResearchBunny Beatrix	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:59:00 - [39] Edited by: ResearchBunny Beatrix on 14/02/2009 10:01:18 Here's the issue with attribute respec: you can lay out a 6-month skill plan to maximize usage of your 2 primary (15/9) attributes, then swap to either a balanced spread or a second min/max setup. You'll be able to pull ~2800sp/hr, swapping your primary attributes every 6 months. This means that you'll be able to pull ~24.8M sp/yr instead of ~20M sp/yr. Here's the best way to take advantage of it: spec Int/Mem for the first 6 months - train your learning (gimped a little, yes) then your tanking & support skills (not gimped ). After 6 months swap to per/wil, train whatever piloting skills you want. Step 3, profit!!!!111oneUno!!!1
Anibelle	Posted - 2009.02.15 16:00:00 - [40] I like the idea of being able to re-spec somewhat. If you love out in Null, it's not viable to use a set of +5s, hell, if you're doing regular PvP, it's barely worth it to plug-in +3s. This way you can set a 6month focus. You can never compete with an Empire carebear in SP/Hr, but you can at least make up for a poorly specced main.

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