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Dragy
Caldari
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 15:55:00 -
[1]
I understand that this is the 100th topic about the missiles. I must state that i am not using missiles and even if they get changed again i won't be using them. Just want to have caldari ships to have some performance so that they can fight equally.
Let's go back. Way baaaack. To the time when we had only skills for dmg. It was great. Missiles always hit. This philosophy should be like this all the time and never shoudl have been changed imo. Then again Phoenix would be too much powerful. So they should change only citadel torpedoes. But ok. The system has been changed.
What happened next ? Missiles were only good for pve and nothign else. Torpedo raven was weaker than ever. Redicolous explosion radius on rage missiles made them not worthy of fitting even. So what else ? Let's change 'em !
Then it was the golden age of missiles. Finally a torp raven made a damage that SHOULD DO. Then other pilots felt threatened. How the hell a ship like raven should be able to damage us if it's such a good pve boat for missions and everything. It can't be ! Let's nerf it !
So now we have a situation when missiles are obsolete, more than ever. Even a Stealth Bomber can't kill a frigate with it's cruise missiles as it's meant to be ... It's not like i'm not keen on changes, but ....
why the f*** CCP does not think and calculate their changes BEFORE they hit TQ ? Huh ? Their incompetence is unacceptable! This cannot be! All the time caldari ships and their missiles are being underestimated and threated like they should be obsolete. For everyone's sake, CCP. Please double think about changes that occur in Eve universe. People are really laughing at you in your face, if i were you i wouldn't be able to accept it.
What should you do you probably ask. Rechange the missile concept, even rearranging all the skills, cause probably you're fighting for a loss cause. That's more than enough. And please, think things twice before you do anything.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.11 15:57:00 -
[2]
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Asestorian
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:00:00 -
[3]
You want missiles to be like they were in the start?
WHAT?
Holy dongs.
---
 Originally by: CCP Atropos
Destiny Balls
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House
BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:07:00 -
[4]
second this! i even stopped using missiles and trained drones and amarr cruiser 5.
so what like i give ccp about $500 and then they turn around and make all that training time for nothing over and over again...
theres even videos on youtube which claimes to be CCP guys dancing and singing and playing ping pong, when they could be fixing my missiles damn it!
i wont give up though, i have faith that they will make serious changes to missiles soon.
Recruiting \o/ |
K'uata Sayus
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:08:00 -
[5]
It's the frigs, the g**d*** frigates.
When the hell do they get nerfed???!!?
EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM. |
Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:20:00 -
[6]
Rockets are broken, Cruise missiles could use some tweaking.
But missiles in general are allright.
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Maisonian
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:22:00 -
[7]
Whilst I primarily fly Amarr ships, I've cross-trained missile skills to account for the Kahnid T2 ships. Since the changes introduced in QR have come into effect I'd say that things are actually MORE ballenced than they were. I think the problem here is that each wepon system is its own personal entity with missiles being the extreme. For example, lets compare the FOTM weapon system with missiles:
Lasers:
Pros: Good tracking, reasonible DPS, crystal ammo.
Cons: Eats cap like twinkies (esp. on bigger models), high fitting requirements.
Missiles:
Pros: Modular damage types, 'always hits', does not require cap to fire.
Cons: Takes 'time' to do damage (i.e. reach target), damage is reduced against smaller targets
Now, I admit this may be an over-simplification to some degree. However, I cannot see why there is such a great problem involving the missile system. Now frig Vs frig, cruiser Vs cruiser etc works (as it does with other offensive systems) but shooting a missle the size of a bus at a small target causes it to 'miss' somewhat. Now, I have also flown the stealth bomber (and it is broken imho although i have had some fun with it) and it's problem lies in the use of a BS sized weapon system being mounted to a frigate platform. Lets imagine a similar frigate was envisaged where you could fit 3 Tachyon lazers but gave it a paper tank - the same problem arizes (keep in mind the insta Vs. timed damage would be an unfair advantage though).
Esentialy I'm trying to say that Vs ships of a similar size the weapon systems investigated work as intended (I know there are problems with other systems but thats for another post). Now that a raven has problems against frigates or fast moving cruisers the issue is being raised. My thoughts would be to increace the bonuses for T2 missiles (e.g. cruise T2 should have precision doing most of its damage against CRUISERS Vs the other doing heavy damage to structures & slow BS) I know this is the way things are 'intended' currently but buffing these areas of ammo MAY have a positive effect on the missile 'problem'.
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Dragy
Caldari
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Asestorian
You want missiles to be like they were in the start?
WHAT?
Holy dongs.
No. I want missiles to be redone. From the scratch. The concept that CCP thought of was doomed from the beginning. Changing skills bonuses and the whole system of missiles. The "every missile hit" feature should be brought back again. It is irrational that missiles sometimes "hit" more or less a target.
Also, rockets are broken. Cruises are broken. Torps are broken. That's enough said imo.
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Vagel
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Vagel on 11/02/2009 17:19:45
The missile nerf was overdone.
Cruise missiles are now horrible. Even with max missile skills/implants, they do next to nothing in damage against any moving targets - and if they be small targets, forget pointing at that direction.
True, standard missiles can still hit something, but the explotion vel. has been nerfed beyond any practial use.
As long as a target moves faster than 300 m/s, the fastest missile start to loose damage, for cruise missiles that speed limit starts at 112 m/s.
I am now my new main, my old main had 7 mill SP in missiles, 5 mill SP in exploration. Talk about a waste.
Give missiles a chance to do damage again. Give all missiles at least 400% bonus to their current explotion velocity. Rockets could proberly use alot more help, but..got to start somewhere.
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Cromzor
Caldari
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:23:00 -
[10]
It seemed like there were lots of missile boats in the tournament. Is that due to some special mechanic I'm not aware of?
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:24:00 -
[11]
This was what i was thinking after i saw http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=994754
Originally by: Dragy
why the f*** CCP does not think and calculate their changes BEFORE they hit TQ ? Huh ? Their incompetence is unacceptable! This cannot be!
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:43:00 -
[12]
Well, missiles have changed a lot since then. And personally I feel for the better - the 'old' torpedo raven was just plain overpowered (And lets not even start on cruise missile kestrels/blackbirds).
The missile balance has been improving, QR improved them a great deal, because it's no longer possible to completely negate missile damage.
However balance isn't quite there yet - they're still a lower DPS weapon system, which was fine when you did that lower DPS reliably. It's not so hot when your lower DPS is burned by the fact that ships in the same size class are getting substantial damage reduction.
This is especially so for Rockets and HAMs, which don't do enough more damage than their longer range counterparts, in light of their worse general stats and overall bad range. Blasters do 60% more DPS than railguns, with approximately similar fittings.
HAMs do 25% more, and use more grid but less CPU.
Rockets do 33% more, and have quite a lot lower fitting than standards - which would be ok, if there were actually a higher fitting/higher damage rocket option.
For reference, a Rocket Launcher II does about the same damage output as the 75mm gatling railgun II. It costs ~3x the CPU, and 2x the grid.
I don't know many people who fit 75mm gatling railguns, because despite their low fittings, they generally speaking 'just suck'.
But I suspect I'm wasting my time posting here, as I'm in a troll thread. So, whatever.
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249km locking? |
pausert
Caldari
AFK
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:54:00 -
[13]
My favorite is " missiles always hit " HaHa, love this joke. All those missiles I have fired must still be traveling to the target, since I have never seen the explosion yet.
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Rakalakadingdong
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:45:00 -
[14]
Missiles are fine the way they are know. Balanced. Stop whining.
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Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rakalakadingdong
Missiles are fine the way they are know. Balanced. Stop whining.
Some are, some are not, stop anti-whining. |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Divinity's Edge
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cromzor
It seemed like there were lots of missile boats in the tournament. Is that due to some special mechanic I'm not aware of?
I have no idea why people are whining, I saw ample amounts of golems and caracal navy issues. Does being in Polaris enhance your missiles or something?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: Cromzor
It seemed like there were lots of missile boats in the tournament. Is that due to some special mechanic I'm not aware of?
I have no idea why people are whining, I saw ample amounts of golems and caracal navy issues. Does being in Polaris enhance your missiles or something?
And yet, I bet you saw none of them fielding torpedos, HAMs or rockets?
But this is largely a moot point, as the restrictions imposed on the alliance tournament have very little to do with PVP, and are actually a lot closer to running a mission.
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249km locking? |
Julius Romanus
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:07:00 -
[18]
Cruise suck. Torps need a lot of support to work. Rockets suck if you arent WHORING their reach inside web range.
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For Medicinal Use Only. |
Bravard
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:19:00 -
[19]
My drake / nighthawk still comes up near the top of the killmails. Yes damage has been reduced quite a bit, but just get a few TPs in gang and some webs and you're fine..
It just means that caldari, the race most of eve choose when they first join, isnt SO incredible for missile spam level 4s (which I do and ****es me off now) as well as great for PVP.
I do feel that if the falcon is nerfed, caldari ships will be too specialized and won't be GREAT at pvp compared to other alternatives in the other races.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:27:00 -
[20]
Quote:
So now we have a situation when missiles are obsolete, more than ever. Even a Stealth Bomber can't kill a frigate with it's cruise missiles as it's meant to be ... It's not like i'm not keen on changes, but ....
stealth bombers suck = missiles suck
have stealth bombers ever been good?
maybe missiles need a bit of a boost, maybe not.
and believe it or not but turrets actually get reduced damage from sig raidus too 
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Poast Warrior
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: Cromzor
It seemed like there were lots of missile boats in the tournament. Is that due to some special mechanic I'm not aware of?
I have no idea why people are whining, I saw ample amounts of golems and caracal navy issues. Does being in Polaris enhance your missiles or something?
It just shows that certain missiles are still decent against certain ships. Using the tourney as an example is silly though, since it's really nothing like actual PVP.
Personally I think torps are fine, HAMS are questionable, precision heavies are still worthless, rockets and cruise are complete garbage.
So all missiles certainly aren't "balanced", there's still a few issues that need to be addressed.
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Visceroth
Minmatar
The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:33:00 -
[22]
so while we're at it, can my guns always hit too??? Please?
I know it dumb to compare other systems but having missiles "always hit" is a dumb idea too. Than everyone back to missiles.
Missiles are not obsolete. They are just not the same as you remember. Cruises need to work better against bigger targets. The way I see it, Cruise missiles should be the alpha damage. But this just means EHP needs to be looked at(than bring back the arties, but that's another thread) Same with torps not hitting as well on same size targets.
But cruises hitting frigs, c'mon. That's like saying my 800mm Gun should be able to track a frig easy and pop him out of the sky.
All in all, I just think missiles intended for a certain size should be tweaked. Cruises/torps work better against bigger targets, etc.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:37:00 -
[23]
One exceptionally crappy thing about missiles now is that you cannot break smaller ships. Was in a ABing Helios yesterday pinning down a Raven, it shot me with cruise missiles that did 3 damage each (Paradise vs Shields). Sure, they always hit, but no matter how many cruises it shoots at me, it's simply not going to kill me.
Now if it were a Mega that were shooting at me, it'll take a long time but eventually it will hit me. And all it takes is one shot.
Missiles are a bit jacked up atm.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Ron Bacardi
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:49:00 -
[24]
I too, would like my BS size guns to hit a frig at close range all the time.
The missile problem was pretty evident in the tournament too. No one used caldari missile ships at all...ohwait
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House
BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Rockets are broken, Cruise missiles could use some tweaking.
But missiles in general are allright.
yeh - i been going on about missiles a bit lately but this is about right eh
Recruiting \o/ |
Grek Forto
THE IRIS
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:21:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Grek Forto on 11/02/2009 20:21:17
Cruise Missiles vs Frigate = Fail!
Nuke vs Outhouse = Fail?
Edit : Or Nuke vs Outhouse on a moving truck if you a nitpicky about frigs moving.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:24:00 -
[27]
waaaay back?
or
waaaaaay back?
i'm all for being able to fit seige launchers on kessies again
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Rockets are broken, Cruise missiles could use some tweaking.
But missiles in general are allright.
yeh - i been going on about missiles a bit lately but this is about right eh
I'll support that too.
Without getting into too much detail, rockets are crappy because of low base damage, nasty fittings, shortage of slots to fit web on their frigate hosts and the vague viability of ABs on their frigate targets.
Cruise is crappy because a long-range anti-BS missile is never going to be very useful. No matter what you do to the stats (within reason), Cruise will be crappy because it doesn't have a useful role, outside ECM-suppression and dedicated BE-style tactics.
Torps and HAMs are fine and are unchanged from pre-QR - they need no more web/painter support than before. LMs are fine. HMs are immensely more effective.
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Empire Wolf
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:11:00 -
[29]
Just a question how the hell ppl use the philosophy good at pve + good at pvp=Overpowered???!?!?!?!?!??!?!?
pve is complitely different thing, if missiles are both good at pve + pvp doesnt mean they are op.
balance should be for pvp ONLY!!!!
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AnKahn
Caldari
The Giant Squid Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:15:00 -
[30]
Killmails provide the most useful comparison.
Blasters do AT LEAST twice the damage of any missile system.
Drones... Well they add up after awhile.
Real PvP in Eve is point blank so range is not an issue.
I'll fly Caldari just to keep the dream alive, but Gallente still rules. Amaar and Minnie somewhere in between.
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