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Zaboth Garadath Amarr Universal-Corp Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.11 18:16:00 - [1] I started making T2 Armour hardeners, making about a profit of 200K on every one sold. I now am looking into making T2 frigates, like interceptors and Cov Ops. But using many different Invention and Manufacturing calculators, it says, with up-to-date prices that on every ship I make, I would lose huge amounts of money. For example, making an Anathema, with about 1 mil put into making the BPC, using the best sell prices in Domain, The citadel and The Forge, would end up with me losing 5.5 mil per ship, If I sold the Cov ops as 9.5 mil. Why is this so? There is no way that manufacturers can ever make a profit with the costs of all the materials needed, so is it something I am doing worng or what? And yes... I do have production Efficiency lvl 5 :) Thanks, Zab ------------------------------------------------ Please give me some ISK
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.11 18:32:00 - [2] Often times the market on ships fails to correct as fast as it does for modules when accounting to costs. You also have a whole slew of inventors who farm their own research points for mats and consider those costs 'free' and not towards the final value of the product. As an example, people keep putting up assault ships at 85m when the true cost should be hovering around 102m right now. My suggestion, instead of investing the time and energy into inventing anything like this. Just buy everything on the market and relist at the correct price.
Algerion Gallente new horizon sciences Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:06:00 - [3] Also, most serious T2 manufacturers make all the T2 components that go into the final product.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Algerion Also, most serious T2 manufacturers make all the T2 components that go into the final product. I do/did when there was a margin on them but when that margin is moved to 0 then I buy the parts from the market to use in ships or recycle the parts and resell the mat.
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.02.11 20:42:00 - [5] You have to mine the minerals yourself.
Maalan Caldari Selinir	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:06:00 - [6] Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? --- You think you are a pirate? You should see how much I made selling you that ship you just went and got blown up... ((Until CCP admits what I look like please pretend my face looks normal))
Lucia Wilber Minmatar The Steel Vipers	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Maalan Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense...
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Maalan Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... *facepalm
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... *facepalm I was having difficulty judging whether it was a troll or not tbh
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:01:00 - [11] Quote: Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... I dont mean to troll (sorry if i am). First off mining your own mins doesnt lower the cost, if you mine 1m units of trit, and the market value is 3isk/unit then, that has a value of 3m isk. So if you build a widget with the 1m units of trit it has a base value of 3m isk + Production costs + Broker fees + tax (simple economics). If you sell the widget for less than the total value of this calculation you make a loss. The same is true if you buy material below market, it still has a value of 3isk/unit, because you could sell the item for 3isk/unit.
Dak Sagitarum	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Zaboth Garadath There is no way that manufacturers can ever make a profit with the costs of all the materials needed, so is it something I am doing worng or what? And yes... I do have production Efficiency lvl 5 :) Thanks, Zab I make a healthy profit making T2 ships even afre putting all costs into the ship plus invention, that is with making all T2 parts myself of course. I think you need to look at it again in further detail
Maalan Caldari Selinir	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:55:00 - [13] Originally by: The Slagh Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Maalan Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... Mining does not lower production costs any, it does trade time for ISK. Personally I can make more value in ISK running lvl 4 missions than mining so I'd rather run lvl 4 missions and purchase minerals with my time. Again, please show me how mining 1M ISK worth of minerals, manufacturing and selling an item is cheaper than purchasing 1M ISK worth of mineral, manufacturing and selling an item. If those minerals reduce your production cost, I'll be happy to buy them at that reduced price from you... --- You think you are a pirate? You should see how much I made selling you that ship you just went and got blown up... ((Until CCP admits what I look like please pretend my face looks normal))
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.02.12 14:38:00 - [14] The T2 production line is long enough that often it takes a month or so before the prices rise to match the new production costs, that or the production costs drop as the demand dries up. Also with invention you have to look at a wide range of things to invent, as the more profitable items do fluctuate, when people notice a profit in an item, they all begin inventing it until it is no longer profitable and you have people offloading items below cost to get the money to move onto the next thing that is profitable. With invention you need to continually calculate build costs and profits, for a number of items, if it's not profitable for that item right now, just don't do it. Some people do it anyway then complain that it's not profitable, which is why it's not profitable in the first place, all this supply from people that didn't check that they now have to sell for below cost or be stuck with.
brinelan Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Maalan Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... Feel free to contract me your free minerals so I can sell them and keep the profit you are throwing away. Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... facepalm It's simple math: before: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats Price of Mats after: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats/Time * Time to get them * Price of Time But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0!
Kiay Stryx Gallente Phoenix Mandate	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Khrillian Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... facepalm It's simple math: before: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats Price of Mats after: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats/Time * Time to get them * Price of Time But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0! If your producing an item and not taking into account the value of the minerals your losing ISK... If your undercutting past the mineral worth that the item contains, your better of just selling the minerals. Its simple math... ~Stryx
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Khrillian Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... facepalm It's simple math: before: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats Price of Mats after: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats/Time * Time to get them * Price of Time But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0! Brilliant!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Khrillian It's simple math: before: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats * Price of Mats after: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats/Time * Time to get them * Price of Time But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0! Awesome, your time is free, can I get you to go do some things for me ? Personally my time * the time to get the materials, is actually worth more than the cost of the materials.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.13 18:00:00 - [20] Quote: Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money Bleh, explain me this, then: I need Tritanium at 3.3 ISK to make a zero profit (cost = value I can sell it for) ship. I can mine such material and then pretend I am earning those 3.3 ISK. Or, I can look on EVE-Central, find a factory giving me 4.5 ISK per Tritanium. So, use 1M x 3.3 ISK Tritanium to create a 0 profit ship in some time, or 1M x 4.5 ISK Tritanium sold in little time and enjoy the delta 1M x (4.5 - 3.3) = plus 1.2M ISK?
Viikuna	Posted - 2009.02.13 19:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Viikuna on 13/02/2009 19:16:42 Originally by: Khrillian It's simple math: before: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats * Price of Mats after: Total Cost = Quantity of Mats/Time * Time to get them * Price of Time But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0! Price of Time = Price of Mats in the market * Quantity of Mats
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:42:00 - [22] Originally by: The Slagh Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Lucia Wilber Huh? Mining your own minerals does lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... facepalm I was having difficulty judging whether it was a troll or not tbh im going with troll Originally by:* Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Seb Balaak	Posted - 2009.02.14 13:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Khrillian But the price of time is 0 so Total Costs are 0! Ever heard of the expression "time is money"? Some people always seem to associate that expression with greedy capitalism but I remember trying to explain the concept to someone by turning it around (which is sort of my personal life philosophy): money = time When you have turned enough of your time into money, you can use this money to spend time on things YOU want to do. The more money you have, the more time you can spend on fun things and the less time working (selling your time) on getting money. The same applies to EVE. The more ISK you have the more things you can do that would be of interest to you and the less time you need to spend on ISK-grinding (whether it's in the form of mining/ratting or business). So Isk buys you time and time converts to ISK. Getting the highest time for ISK conversion ratio is not just something for those that like to do the business related stuff and there's no good reason to believe it's silly for someone to try to achieve it (as I've seen here and there being said by die hard pvp-ers who think doing trading/industry is a waste of their time or something to be ashamed of).
Hopey Gallente L.O.S.T. Industries	Posted - 2009.02.14 18:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Dak Sagitarum Originally by: Zaboth Garadath There is no way that manufacturers can ever make a profit with the costs of all the materials needed, so is it something I am doing worng or what? And yes... I do have production Efficiency lvl 5 :) Thanks, Zab I make a healthy profit making T2 ships even afre putting all costs into the ship plus invention, that is with making all T2 parts myself of course. I think you need to look at it again in further detail i make some profit on T2 ships (mostly interceptors & af's) but it's not as good a margin as on mods. and, not to add fuel to the fire, but i mine while i'm working (I work from home about 60% of the time) and whilst i can give enough attention to mining to be successful, i'm unable to do anything else that would require even the slightest attention beyond emptying my hold and sucking it into an orca every once in a while, so to me the minerals are almost 'free' as there's no real opportunity cost involved - it's either afk-mine or not be logged in :P \|~~~~~~~~~~~\| Hopey CEO & Founder, L.O.S.T. Industries \|~~~~\|
Grammar Wizard Gallente Random Acts of Kindness	Posted - 2009.02.14 18:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Maalan Originally by: The Slagh You have to mine the minerals yourself. If you are saying by mining your own minerals you make production cheaper you don't seem to value your minerals much, would you give me some? *Huh? Mining your own minerals does* lower production costs. At least as far as ISK is concerned. You're effectively exchanging time for ISK which is ultimately always what it's about. Time for money. Your post doesn't really make any sense... Okay, everyone is bashing this statement, because everyone seems to think it's a rehash of the "minerals are free!" mentality. However, production costs and the potential profit are two separate things. No, mining your minerals will not "increase profits" because you have "free minerals" that you don't need to take into account in your profit calculations. However, all the production cost of an item is, is the amount of ISK that it would take to buy the necessary minerals for production in the first place. And by having your own minerals available, you reduce that initial number because you don't have to spend extra ISK acquiring minerals from another source. It has nothing to do with profit. So if you mine for your own minerals, technically your production costs are lowered, even if it was an unprofitable thing to do and your time would have been better spent doing something else. - Grammar Wizard** - Fixing your incomprehensible gibberish since 2009. - Not responsible for others' wacky semantics.
SunMaid	Posted - 2009.02.14 20:25:00 - [26] You can't say it "lowers" production cost because it doesnÆt. Look at it this way if I mine for an hour and have enough ore that I can sell it on the market and make 10 mil. Now if I take that ore and use it to build something should I sell that something for less then 10 mil? Now if I decide to build something with it to make a profit I would need to add the cost of the manufacturing and the cost of taxÆs and broker (if I sell it on the open market). I will also need to add the cost of the BPC if I had to buy one. (Even if you own it you should be paid to use it). Ok so lets say all that work to make this Item cost you 1 mil. Now this Item has a worth of 11 mil. There is no way around that because if you take the "what I mined is free" or ôI mined it so its cheaperö and sell for anything less then 11 mil you just lost the exact same amount of money as if you paid 10 mil for the materials and sold it for less. Don't think of what you mine as anything but isk as soon as it hits your cargo hold it has a value that you can take to the first station and convert to isk. Doing anything else just hurts you.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.14 23:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Hopey and, not to add fuel to the fire, but i mine while i'm working (I work from home about 60% of the time) and whilst i can give enough attention to mining to be successful, i'm unable to do anything else that would require even the slightest attention beyond emptying my hold and sucking it into an orca every once in a while, so to me the minerals are almost 'free' as there's no real opportunity cost involved - it's either afk-mine or not be logged in :P I agree that is almost free, but in that same time you could be updating market orders also. But yes mining ice when on the phone is great use of my time. Originally by: Hexxx Congratulations to him for having two brains cells to rub together and give himself a tingling sensation.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.15 00:16:00 - [28] It never lowers your cost. The cost of the mats you acquire through any activity equal the cost of selling them on the open market. If you mine for minerals that you use and value them at 3.3 isk when you can easily move that trit for 4.2 in any major hub, I just have one question. Will you mine for me, I promise to buy everything you could ever hope to mine. *facepalm
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.15 01:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria It never lowers your cost. The cost of the mats you acquire through any activity equal the cost of selling them on the open market. If you mine for minerals that you use and value them at 3.3 isk when you can easily move that trit for 4.2 in any major hub, I just have one question. Will you mine for me, I promise to buy everything you could ever hope to mine. facepalm MY TIME IS FREE AS I'M DOING BUSINESS IN THE REAL WORLD. It is not free mats but free time as clients are paying for my time which I'm stealing from them. Originally by:* Hexxx Congratulations to him for having two brains cells to rub together and give himself a tingling sensation.
Kusum Fawn	Posted - 2009.02.15 08:22:00 - [30] What Dreamwalkers, is trying to say, is that the time spent mining, while doing something else (like actual work) is time they otherwise would be offline and not making isk in any way, missioning takes a bit more attention then mining the materials that are gained by mining, true are not "free" and do translate to isk valuse on the market, but then they are already owned, and dont need to be bought. producing from these materials lowers the cost of production in the way that they dont change the balance of your wallet to use, while they could be traded at a higher value, the time spent finding the higher isk/lower isk mats moving it to those locations and shipping/trucking lower cost mats to where you are manufacturing is a job in itself and may negate any isk increases that you would get from spending that extra shipping time just mining for more mats. this will not always be true but it is a very real possibility. enough of this crap about time is isk and can i have your ore, its true you could be doing something more productive then mining, but then you could also make real money not playing this game and sell GTC,meh, you know what he means and your just ignoring it,

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