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Updyke State Wh0re Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 09:39:00 - [31] Originally by: thisisnotanalt Then quite simply, if this rumor is true that a loss of a T3 ship will set players back SP - then CCP is wasting our time and therefore our money. If you eject before your ship is destroyed you lose no SP. If you do not eject, or put yourself in a scenario where you won't have time to eject, you are stupid. Originally by: thisisnotanalt I will not be flying such if this is true. Thank Goodness. How boring would it be if everyone flew T3?
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.12 09:47:00 - [32] Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing. T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me. so your reasoning is that cost and skill requirements aren't enough for the game anymore so we need to continually up the ante in regards to downsides for any new ships this makes much more sense then making new niches in combat for new ships. justifying their existance instead of just making them because you can and tacking on silly downsides to using them hey i got a great idea for tech 4. once you board the ship you have 30minutes until it automatically self destructs tech 5? progressively damages any implants you may have in your head. mods/fitting cannot be removed/changed what so ever. hey this is fun. i like the direction we are going in slight exaggeration and a childs response to not getting what he/she wants really? how so. please explain (or just make more personal attacks in place of an argument) of course it is an exaggeration, but a relevant one. can you give me one good reason for the skill point loss? we are talking game mechanics here, what possible reason does it serve except either to A) deter or B) SP sink. It's just a dumb concept and every bit as stupid as the 2 exaggerations i made.
Updyke State Wh0re Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 10:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia can you give me one good reason for the skill point loss? I can give you two: 1) Deter people from flying them. This way you'd have to really want to. Which is cool. The worst thing that could happen is if everyone was flying around in T3 ships. 2) Encourage people to eject from their ships when they see they are going to lose. This rewards the victor with a fully fitted T3 ship. Hurrah for Piracy Aside from the above, you also have to keep in mind that you van keep flying and losing these ships as much as you like without losing ANY SP, if you eject timeously and stay out of fleet battles and such where you might not be able to eject timeously.
kyrv	Posted - 2009.02.12 10:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? I'm a little confused on this, is this gonna be some kind of pve cruiser? I think its called collateral damage mite be shineing example of gross and phat little Hobbits that captiolise on markets if theres even the faintest wisper of conflict. Perhapse teaching such hobbits that A)its better to do it yourself B) Less rewarding than getting handed out a corpriate battleship/Hac paid in hand and C) regain some loss of conflict where the cautious and intelligent players could profit in turn. I was totally hopeing for crewed experience of useing the ships
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 10:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 12/02/2009 10:31:06 I dont realy care for the sp loss as it is small max some days ,which is realy affordable. But the isk price can be huge , I hope these ships wont be that much costier than the t2-s ie. around 200m isk max with t2 fit. Just imagine if you loose sp you only have to wait some days to use t3 ship again ,but if you loose isk then you have to grind for hours which is boring as hell. And pls nerf matar one it has too much base slots and pg :P oh and give +1 med for caldari thx.
Coronae Borealis	Posted - 2009.02.12 10:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Gal'drea Originally by: Coronae Borealis Most of the players who have been playing for years are rich. So loosing a battleship or t2 hac in a fight isn't really a risk for them. They probably have 20 of them fitted and ready to roll in their hangars. CCP clearly stated that they wanted something else as risk for them than just loosing some ISK. Noobies in these forums aren't even near to that position ISK wise. Or skill wise.. Imagine of having 60+ M SP full pvp character, pvp is only thing you do. You have pretty much all you need for pvp. What to do with training skills? Start training mining skills? What you do with mining skills? Nothing if you are pvp'eer. This will be really interesting and really gives risk for older players too. Again, isk isn't the only solution here, and neither is losing SP. Saying that some people have more SP than they could ever need is still only some people. That's like saying there should be no more isk generation because old players have enough already. Is T3 designed to be only for '03/'04 characters? With only some slight modifications this could be an awesome mechanic for everyone, not just the already privileged older characters. Yes, it's not for noobs. T2 isn't for noobs too. Isn't life weird?
kyrv	Posted - 2009.02.12 10:39:00 - [37] There should totally be a seperate collum on killboards for these ships.
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. I thought it was about veld miners in empire whining about a worthwhile game mechanic until ccp caves in and screws up their game in preference to people who want honourable 1v1 bow before fight
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Coronae Borealis Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 12/02/2009 10:40:12 Originally by: Gal'drea Originally by: Coronae Borealis The life for noobs is already damn easy with nearly million skillpoints at start. It will be awesome that getting into t3 ships will take atleast year of skillplanning. And they cost alot with the best subsystems. the very best thing about eve is that a week-old player on a trial account can be a useful asset in pvp, regardless of how complex and confusing and grandiose everything is. Eve rewards critical thinking and creativity more than it does grinding rats, ****socking, or otherwise clicking, rinsing, and repeating.
Azuse Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. This just in: Moos/rpgs/adventure are about advancing your character not digressing it. A developer who comes out and tells its customers it's actually created a way for them to level down their character, can hardly be surprised it's received badly. -------------------------
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Jack Gates stuff did you have something to add or just trolling as usual?
Updyke State Wh0re Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 13:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Azuse Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. This just in: Moos/rpgs/adventure are about advancing your character not digressing it. A developer who comes out and tells its customers it's actually created a way for them to level down their character, can hardly be surprised it's received badly. This just in: IF YOU EJECT BEFORE YOUR SHIP BLOWS UP YOU LOSE NO SP.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.02.12 14:00:00 - [43] Much depends on the bonuses the the T3 skills give. But really this is just the extension of risk:reward from the realm of ISK, which is easily obtainable in large amounts, to SP, which is not. In other words, some actual risk. And really, a rank 1 skill... meh. Easily replaced. Me? I'll finish skilling up for the T2 I want while smarter players than me make the calculations. I'm not flying anything cruiser-sized in combat that costs 500M+ ISK, regardless of skill-loss.
K1RTH G3RS3N Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2009.02.12 14:10:00 - [44] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing. T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me. so your reasoning is that cost and skill requirements aren't enough for the game anymore so we need to continually up the ante in regards to downsides for any new ships this makes much more sense then making new niches in combat for new ships. justifying their existance instead of just making them because you can and tacking on silly downsides to using them hey i got a great idea for tech 4. once you board the ship you have 30minutes until it automatically self destructs tech 5? progressively damages any implants you may have in your head. mods/fitting cannot be removed/changed what so ever. hey this is fun. i like the direction we are going in slight exaggeration and a childs response to not getting what he/she wants really? how so. please explain (or just make more personal attacks in place of an argument) of course it is an exaggeration, but a relevant one. can you give me one good reason for the skill point loss? we are talking game mechanics here, what possible reason does it serve except either to A) deter or B) SP sink. It's just a dumb concept and every bit as stupid as the 2 exaggerations i made. its not dumb because you say it is and good reasons have already been listed, like the one you quoted... my opinion on it is that the good side of it would be, im hoping, that they would be cheaper because their draw-back is in the sp not the isk. Recruiting \o/
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:25:00 - [45] Edited by: Shadowsword on 12/02/2009 15:25:26 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your ship gets blowed up and you dont eject you randomly get ONE of the skills reduced by ONE level post death: You're sure about death affecting only one of the subsystem skills? If that's the case, training them all the way to lvl V might be worth it. ------------------------------------------
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Azuse Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. This just in: Moos/rpgs/adventure are about advancing your character not digressing it. A developer who comes out and tells its customers it's actually created a way for them to level down their character, can hardly be surprised it's received badly. LOL that is not true in any sense. FFXI is still a popular MMO and when you die you lose XP. The only solace is, that these are regained not only by a time base, but dependent on how many NPC's you can kill to regain that level. With that being said, if you forget to update your clone, you lose SP too. so they have effectively "created a way for them to level down their character". People live with the fact that it's part of the game and you better be prepared. Same thing with T3 ships. You better be prepared to lose SP and your ship when you un-dock. Lastly, no one is making you fly T3 ships. If you don't like the mechanic, don't use it. The rest of the game is still in tact.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 12/02/2009 15:25:26 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your ship gets blowed up and you dont eject you randomly get ONE of the skills reduced by ONE level post death: You're sure about death affecting only one of the subsystem skills? If that's the case, training them all the way to lvl V might be worth it. I confirm this. Only ONE subsystem skill is reduced ONE level.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:25:00 - [48] lmao, this is great. Besides already building on one of the HARSHEST death penalties in all of MMORPGs, now T3 is going to be suited more towards the older players (who have implants and learning skills up in order to train those lost skills back faster). Good job CCP. Great work.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:28:00 - [49] Edited by: Visceroth on 12/02/2009 16:28:27 Originally by: Kuzya Morozov lmao, this is great. Besides already building on one of the HARSHEST death penalties in all of MMORPGs, now T3 is going to be suited more towards the older players (who have implants and learning skills up in order to train those lost skills back faster). Good job CCP. Great work. So what? plus these skills are lvl 1 skills!!! for an un-implated pilot lvl 1 is what 15 mins? 20? any new pilot isn't going to have the iskies to fly T3 ships anyway. Edit: you could also say: "Way to go CCP, T2 ships are only for veteran pilots as new pilots can't afford them yet."
Updyke State Wh0re Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov now T3 is going to be suited more towards the older players (who have implants and learning skills up in order to train those lost skills back faster). Good job CCP. Great work. You have a point, upon character creation newbs should already have a fully fitted titan and the skills to pilot it. You really thought that one through, good job!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:48:00 - [51] For this to even be close to viable is to make T3 much much better than other ships. Not worth it to risk a ship that is barely better than others if I lose skill time. --
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:49:00 - [52] Originally by: BiggestT Listen, isk is a huge factor. The majority of the player base can barely afford to replace CS (ie me). Losing a captial is still a huge loss for most pilots. We dont all have isk-printing alts Isk is just one of the reasons, the others been stated above. * Risk vs reward is taking a step up. * CCP doesn't want t3 to be the 'standard', this way t3 is viable but a liability, i.e. not the fleet standard. * Cost, as people mentioned above. * Something for the older players who has "too much sp" and "nothing to train". * You can "bypass" this skill loss by ejecting from the specific ship. SP loss is defined by ship loss, not your pod or losing another ship. It all makes perfect sense. If you "don't have" isk or SP to spend, you will fly t2. That's what CCP wants. If you have isk or SP to spend, you have the choice to fly t3 to spend it, or to fly t2. That's what CCP wants. Perfect logic, perfect sense, innovative and cool solution, imho. I'd even step it up a bit and make all relevant t3 skills drop a level per loss, rather than just one random. Honestly, I am really impressed (again) with CCP doing such an intricate implementation to factor in so many solutions.
Lieutenant Isis Gristle Industries	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Updyke You don't lose skill points if you eject. This means that; a) If you regularly fly and even lose T3 ships you don't have to lose a single SP. b) If you fight against T3 ships and get one to structure, there's a VERY good chance that the pilot will eject, meaning that you get a fully fitted t3 ship, in stead of a wreck. everybody wins. This is going to make piracy much fun. Originally by: Roc Wieler I enhance my RP experience by filling my bathtub with red jello, balancing a wooden plank across it, then play EVE naked on my laptop.
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:27:00 - [54] /me passes out boxes of tissues before heading back to Sisi to play with my Legion. ôReligion is a terminal illness whose symptoms include the loss of common sense, humility, rational thinking, and in your case, moral decency.ö - Gallente Ambassador Jacques Allirou, Caill
Gal'drea	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:54:00 - [55] Edited by: Gal''drea on 12/02/2009 20:54:08 Originally by: Lieutenant Isis This is going to make piracy much fun. T3, the silent-pirate boost. "Eject and give me your $$$ ship, or I'll send your character 4 days into the past."
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Gal'drea Edited by: Gal''drea on 12/02/2009 20:54:08 Originally by: Lieutenant Isis This is going to make piracy much fun. T3, the silent-pirate boost. "Eject and give me your $$$ ship, or I'll send your character 4 days into the past." Now if they'd only do something about Bacon and local...
Woulvesbaine	Posted - 2009.02.13 01:38:00 - [57] This is not a criticism of this one mechanic per say, but I think the result will not be to encourage people to PvP. As a PvP'er i am more interested in mechanics which will encourage others to get out of empire and get into PvP. Eve is already an expensive proposition as far as losses go. This of course makes your heart pound that much more during pvp. However, the true and tangible losses deter many people from PvPing. Eve has hundreds of thousands of players yet how many are just carebears b/c they don't want to lose their isk/ship? This being said, I like the basic mechanic CCP has arrived at but am concerned about introducing a mechanic that may have the effect of further deterring players from PvPing form fear of loss.
thisisnotanalt	Posted - 2009.02.13 03:07:00 - [58] This is a topic that deserves recognition and discussion by the denizens of EVE.
Kell Braugh Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Azuse Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. This just in: Moos/rpgs/adventure are about advancing your character not digressing it. A developer who comes out and tells its customers it's actually created a way for them to level down their character, can hardly be surprised it's received badly. Azuse... calm down. Its T3, the new thing. From what it sounds like it will be pretty niche and the connection between people's time in game vs. the ability of the characters they play went out the door when people started buying and trading characters for isk and in game items. - In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP.
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:44:00 - [60] Edited by: Steve Thomas on 13/02/2009 05:45:12 theirs a very weird paradox at work here Quote: T3 ships are going to be nich they take 30 or 36 Datacores to build a complete ship(aparetnly each "section" takes ~6 datacores) which you would think would place them someplace between T2 Cruisers and T2 BCs but from the sound of things they do not seem to be as good as t2 cruisers, and quite frankly given the SP you need to invest just to get in them (not counting the module skills!)they frankly dont seem to be worth the effort! so in a nutshell if that remains the case theirs -0- reason to go into Wspace AT ALL.

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