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Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:25:00 - [1] Yeah, you heard it right. As I'm writing up this collective proposal on the actual auditing group, it snapped into my head. Why not inform others of what you've been doing and perhaps we can get more interest involved. Through some secondary contacts I made way back in the way back machine when I was in a pirate merc corp, I started vetting corp members. Essentially the same thing we here at MD do just on a more personalized and focused scale. Searching character records, eve search, API journel checking, etc.. and more or less screening new applicants and potential directors, players with roles, etc... Its mostly small time, I only do maybe 3 or 4 vets a week due to time constraints. I don't charge to much, but between the work I do in a month it usually is enough to pay for a single GTC Do the rest of you think this might be something that could be taken into a larger role? Also.. how does everyone feel about New Eden Financial Assurance Group
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:32:00 - [2] Needs a better name with a rude acronym. Other than that, approved!
Damien Jax Industrial Research College Ltd	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:40:00 - [3] I like the idea, but I've been thinking for a while that it should be expanded to go further. I propose doing auditing and some form of underwriting for new issues. Some people who propose IPO's dont' do their homework or get bogged down trying to do the IPO, they get distracted from their business. I propose that underwriters step in and advise these people on any possible business flaws and how best to raise the isk they need. Auditors kind of perform this duty already (except for the isk raising part). Underwriters could also do what they do in real life - buyout the IPO and resell it. The IPO gets their money and the underwriters get a spread, it'd be on teh underwriters to "sell" the plan to the public. I know, I know. It sounds like money grubbing, but what the hell... it's EVE afterall! Everyone needs a piece of the pie.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Damien Jax I like the idea, but I've been thinking for a while that it should be expanded to go further. I propose doing auditing and some form of underwriting for new issues. Some people who propose IPO's dont' do their homework or get bogged down trying to do the IPO, they get distracted from their business. I propose that underwriters step in and advise these people on any possible business flaws and how best to raise the isk they need. Auditors kind of perform this duty already (except for the isk raising part). Underwriters could also do what they do in real life - buyout the IPO and resell it. The IPO gets their money and the underwriters get a spread, it'd be on teh underwriters to "sell" the plan to the public. I know, I know. It sounds like money grubbing, but what the hell... it's EVE afterall! Everyone needs a piece of the pie. I would strongly advise starting simple and small, focus on the auditing and business analysis as described in the principles based auditing standard. A simple informational website on the audit methodology and some basic advice for IPO managers would also be a beneficial use of time. Again, keep it simple. The group can always grow later.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Hexxx A simple informational website on the audit methodology and some basic advice for IPO managers would also be a beneficial use of time. Again, keep it simple. The group can always grow later. More or less what Im doing right now. Deciding on a name I figure should be a collective effort before I got and plunk some dollars down for a domain name
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Hexxx A simple informational website on the audit methodology and some basic advice for IPO managers would also be a beneficial use of time. Again, keep it simple. The group can always grow later. More or less what Im doing right now. Deciding on a name I figure should be a collective effort before I got and plunk some dollars down for a domain name I kinda liked your initial name there. Assurance is audit after all. I kind of favor the descriptive names these days. However let me point out that Financial Assurance Group is always going to spell...well...you get the idea. Maybe, "EVE Financial Assurance Services" instead? EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:21:00 - [7] Kazzac as you know i am exiting my current line of work and would be interested in getting involved with your project should you need additional manpower.
Pax Magnus Minmatar Peace Corps	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:57:00 - [8] I'm sure you've all been waiting for a "!" to weigh in on the topic, so here goes: I think Kazzac has an excellent idea, supplemented by Damien's take. At it's core, there are two primary factors that result in a successful IPO; profitable operations and the ability to convince potential investors of the likelihood of returns. I tend to believe that the combined ability to be successful in both endeavors is a rare commodity. There should be an opportunity for an individual or group to review inelegant business plans from unknowns, audit the provider, and invest in them if appropriate. At that point, the investment could be kept within the group or shopped around to the MD investors in the form of a refined business plan. Ultimately, this group would be a resource for potential investors to learn about the past performance of those involved in an IPO. I guess this is more a venture capital initiative than an auditing service, but it seems like the more profitable direction.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.13 23:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Pax Magnus I'm sure you've all been waiting for a "!" to weigh in on the topic, so here goes: I think Kazzac has an excellent idea, supplemented by Damien's take. At it's core, there are two primary factors that result in a successful IPO; profitable operations and the ability to convince potential investors of the likelihood of returns. I tend to believe that the combined ability to be successful in both endeavors is a rare commodity. There should be an opportunity for an individual or group to review inelegant business plans from unknowns, audit the provider, and invest in them if appropriate. At that point, the investment could be kept within the group or shopped around to the MD investors in the form of a refined business plan. Ultimately, this group would be a resource for potential investors to learn about the past performance of those involved in an IPO. I guess this is more a venture capital initiative than an auditing service, but it seems like the more profitable direction. Oh, you mean like the MD forum community that already does this?
Pax Magnus Minmatar Peace Corps	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Hexxx Oh, you mean like the MD forum community that already does this? Point taken. I guess the only difference is relieving the "Ops Guy" from having to create a formal business plan, attempt to fund raise, and endure the inevitable beating from proposing an IPO to MD.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Hexxx I kinda liked your initial name there. Assurance is audit after all. I kind of favor the descriptive names these days. However let me point out that Financial Assurance Group is always going to spell...well...you get the idea. Maybe, "EVE Financial Assurance Services" instead? .....well yeah its been a long day at work. EFAS looks better than, yeah the other one. Pax Magnus, this isnt an IPO more of a collective group of players working towards a singular goal, that being to improve transparency in the secondary market. My ultimate goal now being to just improve transparency period, more thought on my matter has me thinking that there is a lot of potential here not just for us market jockeys. LoW, I'll definitely be needing volunteers, in fact this goes to anyone. If you are interested in being an auditor or business analyst just let me know and what you're specialties are. Just keep in mind that full transparency goes both ways, I feel that everyone should be able to watch everyone else more or less. I don't want a situation arise where the question is asked "Who watches the watchers?"
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:16:00 - [12] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/02/2009 00:17:45 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Also.. how does everyone feel about Waffles & Syrups Assurance Group Delicious!!!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:24:00 - [13] Sounds good Kazzac, just a key question: How would you select those who would be the auditors or member of this group? Secondly, we've been talking about having an "audit" group of some kind for a long time, it'll be nice to see something finally launched.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Brock Nelson Sounds good Kazzac, just a key question: How would you select those who would be the auditors or member of this group? Secondly, we've been talking about having an "audit" group of some kind for a long time, it'll be nice to see something finally launched. Get three or four of the most respected and well known auditors in MD together. Work as a group to "select" new auditors to be included into the group. Rinse and repeat. Use the participatory organizational model that works so well for EBANK. EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Brock Nelson Sounds good Kazzac, just a key question: How would you select those who would be the auditors or member of this group? Secondly, we've been talking about having an "audit" group of some kind for a long time, it'll be nice to see something finally launched. Get three or four of the most respected and well known auditors in MD together. Work as a group to "select" new auditors to be included into the group. Rinse and repeat. Use the participatory organizational model that works so well for EBANK. More or less what I was thinking I like way EFAS sounds so far... I'll go domain shopping this weekend
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Brock Nelson Sounds good Kazzac, just a key question: How would you select those who would be the auditors or member of this group? Secondly, we've been talking about having an "audit" group of some kind for a long time, it'll be nice to see something finally launched. Get three or four of the most respected and well known auditors in MD together. Work as a group to "select" new auditors to be included into the group. Rinse and repeat. Use the participatory organizational model that works so well for EBANK. More or less what I was thinking I like way EFAS sounds so far... I'll go domain shopping this weekend The technology portion will take a bit longer, but you can start on the people portion a bit sooner. EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.02.14 02:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Hexxx We must raise an army... I hate to ruin your expansionistic plans but currently there aren't many IPOs and bonds being launched in MD. That shouldn't stop you people from pushing **** uphill and striking your egos though, however, perhaps some of you respected auditors and auditor wannabes should consider running IPOs yourselves instead, one at a time. It will solve the risk issues raised before and you'll get to actually benefit the community for once.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.14 03:17:00 - [18] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/02/2009 02:47:45 Originally by: Hexxx We must raise an army... I hate to ruin your expansionistic plans but currently there aren't many IPOs and bonds being launched in MD. That shouldn't stop you people from pushing **** uphill and stroking your egos though, however, perhaps some of you respected auditors and auditor wannabes should consider running IPOs yourselves instead, one at a time. It will solve the risk issues raised before and you'll get to actually benefit the community for once. P.S. The Word is "Celebrate". I'm actually an auditor in RL. Oh, and it's called "planning ahead". EBANK Staff \| www.eve-bank.net
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:26:00 - [19] This is an interesting idea. If a group will be formed that will have auditing as a business objective, then you will be expected to start providing some monetary guarantees in case people loose their ISK to an audited individual/group. I personally think people should be doing audits of perspective investment opportunities themselves. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Hexxx on 14/02/2009 10:31:45 Originally by: Aniel Zaar This is an interesting idea. If a group will be formed that will have auditing as a business objective, then you will be expected to start providing some monetary guarantees in case people loose their ISK to an audited individual/group. I personally think people should be doing audits of perspective investment opportunities themselves. Auditing is not about monetary guarantees, it's about bringing transparency to potential investors so that they can make more informed decisions. A more transparent market is a better market. It never was, never has been, and never will be a safety net. edit: To follow up, investors can't do audits themselves in a lot of cases because some businesses have sensitive information. An auditor is a mediator who can verify and communicate the accuracy of the claims without compromising the business. That said....investors can and should do their own research to the extent that they can. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
cpt Mark	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:02:00 - [21] can an auditor contact me in-game please, with cost thanks. Need it done by Sunday.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:03:00 - [22] Just a thought.. EVE Finance Assurance Service Team. ? EVE-FAST(tm) A bit of a potential pun in there I think..
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:31:00 - [23] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/02/2009 11:32:40 Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Hexxx We must raise an army... I hate to ruin your expansionistic plans but currently there aren't many IPOs and bonds being launched in MD. That shouldn't stop you people from pushing **** uphill and stroking your egos though, however, perhaps some of you respected auditors and auditor wannabes should consider running IPOs yourselves instead, one at a time. It will solve the risk issues raised before and you'll get to actually benefit the community for once. P.S. The Word is "Celebrate". I'm actually an auditor in RL. Oh, and it's called "planning ahead". Oh please, pleeeease, mister Hexxx, I want to be an auditor too... You must have missed the Xabier expisode. Kazzac was one of the biggest fans. Three experienced auditors (Kazuo, Shar and Kazzac) are more than enough. As I pointed earlier, the problem is endemic and the solution does not lie with devising better ways to avoid scamming but with participatory organization and bundling producers and consumer in mega-corporations. Black Sun Empire
Joss Sparq Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 12:55:00 - [24] Originally by: YouGotRipped What happened with the idea of a corporation shelf/shaft? I'm willing to improve on that if there's some sort of guarantee from CCP that they're at least looking at it. I would describe myself as having been "shafted" before in EVE, but I don't think that is quite the same thing. A corporation shelf/shaft (for the uninitiated) is?
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.02.14 18:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Hexxx Auditing is not about monetary guarantees, it's about bringing transparency to potential investors so that they can make more informed decisions. A more transparent market is a better market. It never was, never has been, and never will be a safety net. You are correct, which is why there are only 2 people that I am aware of that have the required reputation for such mediation. Making a whole group of people will of course involve at least one of them, but one person can only do so much - who will guarantee the reliability of the rest of the group? Will the results of audits be double checked every time by Kazzac Elentria? What will protect the investors from the chance that one of the volunteer auditors will make an honest mistake (or how do we know it was honest?)? Will auditors be working as a team, dividing the amount of data each has to analyze, opening the window for communication mistakes? I see auditing as a privileged for selected few at this moment. A reputation earned over the years makes people trust them not only under a watchful eye (meaning they are unlikely to steal even if they know they can get away with it), which is more then I would be able to way about anyone besides Kazzac Elentria and Ricdic. Unless, as I mentioned, they would vouch for their auditing business volunteers, taking on some responsibility for their possible mistakes. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Aniel Zaar You are correct, which is why there are only 2 people that I am aware of that have the required reputation for such mediation. Making a whole group of people will of course involve at least one of them, but one person can only do so much - who will guarantee the reliability of the rest of the group? Will the results of audits be double checked every time by Kazzac Elentria? What will protect the investors from the chance that one of the volunteer auditors will make an honest mistake (or how do we know it was honest?)? Will auditors be working as a team, dividing the amount of data each has to analyze, opening the window for communication mistakes? I see auditing as a privileged for selected few at this moment. A reputation earned over the years makes people trust them not only under a watchful eye (meaning they are unlikely to steal even if they know they can get away with it), which is more then I would be able to way about anyone besides Kazzac Elentria and Ricdic. Unless, as I mentioned, they would vouch for their auditing business volunteers, taking on some responsibility for their possible mistakes. The only responsibility I could foresee would be any and all information gathered to be released to the general public for consumption. You would honestly be shocked at the amount of information one can gather if you are clever enough. One of the larger issues that would have to be addressed would be if any participants from Ebank were to assist in any form, would there be any conflicts there in the TOS for them for any current customers. That's something I think Ricdic was going to bring to the board for discussion if I remember right. And to YouGotRipped on the whole Xabier thing. As I've said before, if you spend any length of time in the capital market production, you start to notice repetitive names and your and others names get passed around. Really its a niche market when considering the consumer end since literally the same Alliances buy the same product over and over again. You can really only have so many pets. He was consuming minerals and delivering product, that much I know. Another issue where people in the know cannot release some information which would confirm that fact. But thats getting off topic here.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:14:00 - [27] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/02/2009 12:08:17 Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Hexxx We must raise an army... I hate to ruin your expansionistic plans but currently there aren't many IPOs and bonds being launched in MD. That shouldn't stop you people from pushing **** uphill and stroking your egos though, however, perhaps some of you respected auditors and auditor wannabes should consider running IPOs yourselves instead, one at a time. It will solve the risk issues raised before and you'll get to actually benefit the community for once. P.S. The Word is "Celebrate". I'm actually an auditor in RL. Oh, and it's called "planning ahead". Oh please, pleeeease, mister Hexxx, I want to be an auditor too... hahah You must have missed the Xabier-evn expisode. Kazzac was one of the biggest fans. Three experienced auditors (Kazuo, Shar and Kazzac) are more than enough. As I pointed earlier, the problem is endemic and the solution does not lie with devising better ways to avoid forum scamming but with participatory organization and bundling providers, producers and consumers in mega-corporations / power blocks driven by a common set of goals. What happened with the idea of a corporation shelf/shaft? I'm willing to improve on that if there's some sort of guarantee from CCP that they're at least looking at it. You're relevant. You really are. Really. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Damien Jax Industrial Research College Ltd	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:29:00 - [28] Kazzac, I have server space and I believe yahoo can register a domain for $2 for the first year. I also don't think there's any reason why you would have to start small. It isn't that hard to write up some general guidelines to auditing and underwriting. It should take less than a week to get something hashed out. The problem around here is that things get discussed to death and no one ever follows through.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.15 00:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Damien Jax Kazzac, I have server space and I believe yahoo can register a domain for $2 for the first year. I also don't think there's any reason why you would have to start small. It isn't that hard to write up some general guidelines to auditing and underwriting. It should take less than a week to get something hashed out. The problem around here is that things get discussed to death and no one ever follows through. When it comes to transparency like we'd like around here, sometimes it is best to talk to death to ensure no misunderstandings are held. Was just gonna register with Godaddy more than likely, you get a free year of simple hosting with a 4 dollar registration. Since honestly I was only going to put up a simple HTML design. We can advance the technology as the need arises.
Lieutenant Obvious Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.15 01:04:00 - [30] Edited by: Lieutenant Obvious on 15/02/2009 01:04:50 I thought "Any F.A.G" was a great acronym-combined-with-liberal-pronunciation.

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