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Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.
Try as you might there's no effective way to cut your opponent off.
Warp dec there haulers? - NPC Corp
Gank them? - sec status drops to quickly to be effective.
Attack them in low sec or Null? - Local Intel, Instant 100% correct, check local see person, don't undock/jump.
AFK in Local? - add new jump points, AFKer cant be in every system at one time.
As it stands now in eve your supply lines are 99% safe 99% of the time if you only take the simplest of precautions.
Baring the random tard the logistic back bone of every group in EvE is safely tucked away behind Extremely easy counters.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2995
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cynos remove strategic placement and movement of forces in the same way.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3520
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
I imagine the situation would change significantly if modules and ammo were larger than the minerals required to build them. Imagine if 425mm rail guns were 1500m3 instead of 50m3?
Would it still be cheaper to jump 40 freighter loads of titanium to null rather than mining it locally? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Ioe Oria
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V. |
Domer Pyle
Northern Flemish Bastards Inc Yulai Federation
43
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Posted - 2013.05.29 07:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
this would be nice. pvp is rather stagnant and boring atm. making it easier to disrupt supply lines would be interesting. it would also force people to actually engage others. "Imagine if the bars to your prison were all you had ever known. Then one day, someone appears and unlocks the door. If they have the power to do this, then are they really the liberator? You never remembered who it was that closed you in." - Ior Labron |
ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1318
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ioe Oria wrote:I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V. That idea is probably the best way to change it without having to completely overhaul an entire aspect of the game. Plus it makes sense, who wants to be looking out the window of their space office and suddenly see a 2km long spaceship appear meters from their face? Its not safe! You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
ashley Eoner
175
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:I imagine the situation would change significantly if modules and ammo were larger than the minerals required to build them. Imagine if 425mm rail guns were 1500m3 instead of 50m3?
Would it still be cheaper to jump 40 freighter loads of titanium to null rather than mining it locally? I imagine with the roid changes that'll be less of an issue. |
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Isn't restricting ice supply a way to combat that?
Presumably, if CCP wanted to, they could continue to tweak fuel prices until jumping no longer become economical, and would be restricted to only for special circumstances. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
436
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Most logistic guys in larger entities know the tricks of the pirates, yes. This is not really a problem as it forces people to find new ways... _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
696
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote: When i first started playing EvE i Wanted to be a pirate praying on the Haulers moving the Supply's from high sec to low and null, and the riches from null/low to high-sec. In the start it was great fun fighting the fleets guarding these haulers for the hopes of getting the sweet loot that was inside of them. We Even had deals going to actively hunt some corps supply lines for a while.
But that Play stile is long dead, and in the past years of eve.
Now i spend my time patrolling WHs for even a small reminder of the days of old.
no more easy mode?
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
494
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Posted - 2013.05.29 09:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meh, I never saw the introduction of jump drives as a benefit for the game in general. Sure it is of benefit of the individual player, but in total it reduces game play aspects for many just to make things more convenient for a few.
Though, I am still living in the hope that one day all low sec systems will have cynosural blockers. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
696
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Posted - 2013.05.29 09:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Though, I am still living in the hope that one day all low sec systems will have cynosural blockers. ban capitals from low-sec totally?
maybe this is good idea....
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Gwenywell Shumuku
31
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Posted - 2013.05.29 09:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.
There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.
Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.
Then ppl started to use Titans to bridge freighters (lol), the less rich used carriers (at least still having to cross high/lowsec) and later use cyno-bridge networks (the end of 0.0 logistics) and then jump-freighters (beating the already dead horse again eliminating even the highsec/lowsec jump). |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
139
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote: There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.
Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.
That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
891
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gwenywell Shumuku wrote: There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.
Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.
That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later. it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.
and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.
so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.
tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9603
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600
There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9603
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.
Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9603
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
No seriously though, Hi-sec has approximately 30 times as many build slots as sov null. 0.0 absolutely relies on importing goods from hi-sec because there simply isn't the industrial capacity to produce the ships and modules required.
And that's on top of the gigantic non-ISK subsidies that hi sec manufacturing gets, meaning that even if 0.0 did have the slots, which it doesn't, then it will still be far cheaper and more efficient to build in hi-sec than in 0.0
At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.
1 Kings 12:11
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ioe Oria wrote:I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V.
An easier and long over due fix is that warp scram should prevent docking. Would end station (sexually unconservitive indivudals) from hanging around stations and spreading disseases. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
139
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.
and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.
so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.
tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.
Aaaand, even more awesome!
EDIT: I can understand why alliances and their haulers like jump bridges, jump freighters, cynos etc. But i still believe they're used in a downright inflationary way, it would be cool if there was some kind of reason or mechanic that would justify such kind of convoys even if You have access to various kinds of jumping technologies. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
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Gwenywell Shumuku
31
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Easy gameplay mechanics encurage stupidity. Stupidity will never go away, doesn't matter how easy you make any activity. So ppl still die, as it SHOULD be.
The problem is that ppl not sleeping while playing will never die again doing logistics. I did logistics for a 100ppl corp in deepest 0.0 ALONE for 4 months...thats how broken the system is.
CCPs motivation was to bring more ppl to 0.0. Making it easy to get stuff there should accomplish that, they thought. Well, all they got was 0.0 folk saying "oh, look, we don't need that many ppl now, lets do all the logistics with fewer ppl = more money for us".
All this jumping around and easy logistics made it way to easy to hold and control large amounts of space without anyone living in it. Enjoy todays 0.0. |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Grimpak wrote: it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.
and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.
so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.
tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.
So more player iteraction, more 0.0/low sec pvp, more alliance importance, more importance to strategic system.
Yep, it's obvious why they remove that feature |
baltec1
Bat Country
6692
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
It still wasn't enough to stop us from being terrible at this game. |
Gwenywell Shumuku
31
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.
Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.
Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM... EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.
Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.
For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.
Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for.... |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.
No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option |
Mhax Arthie
85
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Uhm, freighter convoys... yummy! Just yesterday passed a huge freighter convoy in hi sec somewhere around Rens, there was about more than 20 Charon's on each side of the gate. I would love to see something like this in low and null sec! |
ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1320
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Gwenywell Shumuku wrote: There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.
Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.
That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later. it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres. and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you. so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely. tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy. Sounds so much better than "Wake up at 2am to shoot at a tower that will probably have no one defending it, if I don't see you in fleet you get kicked." You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Othran
Route One
502
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:Uhm, freighter convoys... yummy! Just yesterday passed a huge freighter convoy in hi sec somewhere around Rens, there was about more than 20 Charon's on each side of the gate. I would love to see something like this in low and null sec!
Well you'd have to nerf the crap out of cynos/bridges - and probably supercaps as well.
So it isn't going to happen. Simple as that. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
32
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form. http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there. Yeah because titans are supply ships. Pretty sure he's talking about cargo ships, the ones that you could actually hunt in null. The ones that would occasionally be full of mega and zyd. He's absolutely right too, having had the pleasure of hunting those ships way back then, there was some risk to null seccers. Now there's none. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9608
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Malcanis wrote:Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form. http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there. Yeah because titans are supply ships. Pretty sure he's talking about cargo ships, the ones that you could actually hunt in null. The ones that would occasionally be full of mega and zyd. He's absolutely right too, having had the pleasure of hunting those ships way back then, there was some risk to null seccers. Now there's none.
You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?
Look at that page again.
1 Kings 12:11
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