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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
152
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Posted - 2014.03.26 22:47:00 -
[661] - Quote
devian chase wrote: 1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home
fastest way to clear C5+ space.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
102
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Posted - 2014.03.26 23:02:00 -
[662] - Quote
Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole. But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos. So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before. Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor. PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes. We need the probing for the new players. Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing. Not to probe in w-space is certain death. That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target. Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.
Don't talk about giving us an ess in w-space if the one in null sec doesn't work to give fights.
Ore sites will be repopulated after the reprocessing changes since it would actualy be worth it to mine in w-space after those.
Give us more unique things to make, find, shoot, ... .
We Don't NEED or WANT a local in w-space, it has been fine before , now it is causing the problems we have in w-space. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1032
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Posted - 2014.03.26 23:59:00 -
[663] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
484
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Posted - 2014.03.27 00:15:00 -
[664] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
What is this I don't even know.....
We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!
Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)
Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!
*clutches head and goes to get an asprin. |
Lucius Saturninus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.03.27 01:28:00 -
[665] - Quote
If your going to do this you may as well take away local chat in Null Space to while your at it. |
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
70
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Posted - 2014.03.27 03:49:00 -
[666] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:eGO Wallrat wrote:So I'm new to the forums but not to EVE and for the last several years I've been living in W-Space. I've learned to be paranoid. I've done some hunting myself and I've been hunted. As I'm reading this it would be a major change to the current WH dynamic IMO. Take the auto scanner away - but don't take away my ability to be vigilant. BayneNothos wrote:[quote=Erasmus Phoenix]There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender. The attackers can get information right away with the overlay. Ships on scan and one anom? I know where I'm heading. If I had to scan down the anom then the ratters / miners might see my probes before I get there - if they're vigilant. By masking sigs it simply handicaps one side of equation. I'm all for taking away the auto overlay and make us rely on our own actions to see what's out there. But it doesn't make sense for me to probe if I can't actually see what's there. We're talking about different times here. The defender knows about the incoming K162 at my warp initialisation + however long it takes the discovery scanner to refresh itself/manually be refreshed. This can be as short as a second or as long as however long the auto refresh rate on the discovery scanner window is. The attacker doesn't get any info from the new wh until he's aligned, warped to it, flown up to it, jumped, loaded the new system and clicked dscan. If it's a short warp, he's in a fast boat and he lands on top of the wh that can be a short time, 10-20 seconds. If the WH is the other end of the system, if he's in a fat scan boat like an Armour T3, if the cosmic anomaly is far off the WH entity itself it can be double or even longer than that. This is why I'm in favour of a short delay (or a proper fix via WH spawning on gridland) it equals up both sides.
Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5047
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Posted - 2014.03.27 04:17:00 -
[667] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
If I'm looking, here's what I see in the above scenario: first, I see a new signature. Then, I scan down the new signature. It has a signal strength of 0.4% on the long range scan. I keep watching the signatures. The signature I was watching switches from 0.4% to 0.8% on the long range scan: this means I already know that someone is warping to the other end of this wormhole because the wormhole that was there is now replaced with a K162.
So I know that someone is coming before they even land on their side of the wormhole.
If CCP wants to provide some kind of "warning", I would suggest that the existing wormhole should simply get "bigger" as it becomes more unstable. Rather than replacing that A641 with a K162, just make the A641's signature strength inversely proportional to its stability (or directly proportional to the mass that has transited relative to the mass limit of the hole). Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 05:19:00 -
[668] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole. But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos. So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before. Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor. PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes. We need the probing for the new players. Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing. Not to probe in w-space is certain death. That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target. Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.
- You are not getting to the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is not carefree PvE. The heart of it is the fact that the ENTIRE w-space economy outside of PI is tied to the fate of FOUR ships. FOUR. And CCP has already hinted at nerfing this class of four ships, and let me tell you that has impacted demand for w-space loot big time. My wallet hurts everyday not because I have an easy time ratting (I don't), but because T3 cruisers are in a state of complete limbo and have been for an extended period because there is not any clarity yet from CCP as to what is going to happen to them. This is a problem.
- Nowadays there is "overproduction" of w-space loot while others have complained at the same time that there is a lack of population in w-space. So yeah, this is a demand issue, not a supply one. There's no demand. That needs to be fixed. I think you sort of understand that, but are getting hung up on the K162 timer thingy and believe this will raise sleeper loot prices. Well yes it will, but for all the wrong reasons. This would be a step towards fixing the supply/demand imbalance by cutting supply to be in line with the current low demand. That's the wrong direction to go in if you ask me. It will lead to further depopulation. Net net, you could end up with even fewer kills because there's simply nobody living in w-space anymore.
- I understand that probing is sort of part of the culture of w-space, so I'm ok with the amount of probing there is now, but there doesn't need to be anymore probing than there is today without there being wallet incentives to do it. Especially with the w-space economy situation being the way it is.
tl;dr demand demand demand, fix demand. The K162 timer will cut suppy, but we have a demand problem in w-space. Fix THAT first.
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BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
54
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Posted - 2014.03.27 05:19:00 -
[669] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it.
The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap.
EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point.
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window. |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 05:52:00 -
[670] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
- Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.
- My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.
- If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
95
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:00:00 -
[671] - Quote
mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh
maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update. this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..
As it is you should never stop checking dscan.
As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.
in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:12:00 -
[672] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: What is this I don't even know.....
We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!
Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)
Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!
*clutches head and goes to get an asprin.
I don'r need to rat, but the c1-c4 people seem to complain about not enough income... . Wich only is a problem since the new scanning system. So ore sites not needed to scan might also be one of the problem.
Besides, everyone seems to have forgoten what it was before the overview scanner changes where you did need to scan. Now you can just just pos up immediatly. People still ratted before so HTFU.
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Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:15:00 -
[673] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote: Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it. The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap. EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point. Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time. Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:18:00 -
[674] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh
maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update. this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..
As it is you should never stop checking dscan.
As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.
in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.
I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards. Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers. Today there is no need for it while doing pve. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
55
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:35:00 -
[675] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote:
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
- Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.
- My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.
- If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.
Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.
If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:37:00 -
[676] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more. You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space. And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space. |
Akseli Jari
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
13
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:47:00 -
[677] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. Thanks! -Fozzie
Could you perhaps elaborate on some of the other concepts you've been working on? |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
55
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:52:00 -
[678] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
If you read around the forums a bit you'll see I'm a big fan of PvE guys. I'm the one saying PvP groups should be adopting them rather than trolling and evicting them. The WH ecosystem is very important to me. The variation in what you find static to static is what I love about it. However part of that ecosystem is predators, whether you like it or not. PvE guys existed before the Discovery Scanner and thrived just as much as they do now. The only difference is that now they don't have to actively protect themselves, the Discovery Scanner will tell them when they have to run the split second I start to warp to the WH. And this is why a SHORT delay is being suggested by some people. Even if it is the long terrible way to fixing the Discovery Scanner |
Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
7
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Posted - 2014.03.27 09:24:00 -
[679] - Quote
Directed to Fozzie.
Assuming the proposed unscannable k162 delay changes go ahead for all k162s, what is going to happen to k space exits? The changes would be near worthless for k space as local would be an instant and more powerful intel method than the scanner overlay.
Are you going to add a similar delay timer to local for people jumping in kspace to make the changes worth it?
(I'm curious if there was any dev though put into the issue and if so what was it.) |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:33:00 -
[680] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.
If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will.
I already mentioned about the T3 reblance/nerf in my earlier posts. The uncertainty over the fate of T3 cruisers is already damaging and has damaged w-space. Markets are always forward-looking, and that includes the Eve market. T3 hull/sub prices already reflect significant uncertainty over the possibility of the nerf hammer dropping. Pull up a recent chart of Tengu hulls in Jita and you'll see what I'm talking about. You don't see those kind of inexorable multi-year declines if there isn't a demand problem.
I'm not sure who would program a timer change, but as the old saying goes - past performance is no guarantee of future results.
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Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
8
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Posted - 2014.03.27 10:41:00 -
[681] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more. You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space. And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space.
They aren't anymore because you are in a big ass entity. They see you and they run since your corp has the power to wipe the floor with most of them. It's the nature of the beast. Now, are you one of those hunters that like his prey encircled and brought in the rifle's sights or are you the type that likes to hunt in the wild and knows that he'll not always get the kill? |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:19:00 -
[682] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote: I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards. Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers. Today there is no need for it while doing pve.
The lack of a negative outcome is not a positive outcome.
In other words, it is not "rewarding" to not have something bad happen to me - and it is not "rewarding" to have to engage in a boring/undesirable activity in order to avoid an even more negative outcome.
Logical fallacies.
Staying on topic - I have advocated and continue to advocate that K162 behaviour should be tilted a bit more in favor of the hunters but it should be done without making w-space more inconvenient.
Completely removing the Discovery Scanner for 0% sigs would force PvE pilots to train a scanner alt on another account like it was in the old days and this is rather inconvenient because the role is boring and nobody enjoys it. It would be a significant gameplay nerf.
The opposition would argue that if there is more inconvenience then loot prices will increase. This is true, but creating a price rally by making the game less enjoyable to play is not a good long-term direction to go. More depopulation (and subscription losses) would result.
At the same time putting a delay on the K162 spawn on the Discovery Scanner could easily tip the balance too far in favor of the hunters. Hunters should feel a sense of accomplishment for every kill they get, but if they get like five minutes to find a barge or a cheap PvE boat and there's no warning (cloaked Proteus FTW) - well then its just cheap kills for the lolz and PvE pilots leave w-space.
At least the change should start with the K162 popping on the Discovery Scanner when a ship has gone through it, and no later than when a ship has decloaked after passing through it. That would be more balanced and it would be similar (in terms of timing) to the old days when a scanner alt would pick up the K162 via probes but without the inconvenience of yet more probing (ugh).
But this recommendation is excluding any further changes to improve demand for sleeper loot. If there's some nice improvements to w-space site values on the demand side, then I would not mind further changes to benefit the hunters. Just keep the number of carrots equal to the number of sticks for both camps. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
177
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Posted - 2014.03.27 12:44:00 -
[683] - Quote
Pointing fingers at no one in particular. This thread has turned into a giant DUMB MAGNET. Where is the ninny that randomly locks threads for random forum rules reasons?? This has to be breaking some obscure rule. Please lock it.
There is nothing new to discuss here.
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Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
455
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 13:27:00 -
[684] - Quote
I have a thought which.. kind of just occurred to me. I'm writing something up in more detail.. but I'll just throw it here.
1) Return the scanner changes to pre-odyssey (needed for the next two changes) 2) In c4, c5 and c6 space... instant polarization upon jumping a hole. Currently when you jump a wormhole, you get a polarization timer from the side you jumped in (usually 4 to 5 minutes). You can immediately jump back through that wormhole. When you do, you get another polarization timer (from the otherside), for about the same amount of time. If you try to jump the same wormhole again, you cannot, until your timer expires. This change makes it so that when you jump, you are just instantly polarized on both sides of the hole (you jumped in, you cannot jump back for 4 to 5 minutes).
You want to rage roll, you put your ships at risk, you rage too hard, you risk trapping one of the otherside. Chain collapsing is still possible, it just takes about 5 minutes vs 30 seconds.
3) Make Dscan a module (and just to add more pain, make it a high slot module). No dscan module equipped, no dscanning for you. There is a t1 and t2 version, T1 cannot be used while cloaked, T2 one can.
4) Add 2 DScan skillbooks (Direction Scanning and Expanded Directional Scanner, cannot be trained on trial accounts). Each level of this increases your dscan range by 1.5 au (we can't just have a module without having people dedicate time to learning how to use it now can we).
What does all of this do?
a) Makes wormhole space a HELL of a lot more dangerous and scary. You put the pvper's at risk of getting popped when rage rolling, or even just jumping a wormhole (hell wormhole camps rejoice, you now have a reason to bubble a hole).
b) Makes exploration and jumping in a "wormhole" actually dangerous (note the polarization changes only apply to c4 through c6 space, leaving the bar quite lowered for c1, c2 and c3 space (allowing for day trippers, easier fighting, less stress, etc).
c) Makes people who want that early detection system sacrifice something on their ship to get it. It makes dedicated probers and scanners a EXTREMELY important position for a fleet and a corporation.
d) It gives the "hunters", some more viability regarding hunting. This does deter a "solo hunter" as they have to sacrifice a slot to equip a dscan module (or they could go with just a probe launcher, oh yea probes are now more viable). You need a scanner to really get around, it makes retro-fitting in space MUCH more viable, it creates hunting grounds, and it just makes the whole feeling of wormholes.. scary.
e) gives a new training for people who really want to know whats out there. If you don't want to train it or just get the first skill to 4, your dscan range is only 6.0 au.
No longer will a fleet of 30 people all mash dscan at once (because they probably don't have a module equipped). Hunters can potentially be just "offgrid", "Uncloaked", and a fleet never know.
No longer will people almost instantly auto detect probes in space without having a dscan module on (heck you could probe to your hearts content now).
No longer can you just mash dscan to see if someone is probing you out (the hunters can be hunted also).
No longer can you just "roll the hole", without risking something trying to do it.
I would aim towards doing this. You fix combat by making it just THAT much more dangerous (Hell I'd hate to be a carebear that has to sacrifice a slot for a module, hate to have to train yet 2 more damn skills to use that module, hate that I risk losing ships by trying to mass a hole, hate that wormholes don't auto pop up on the overview anymore, hate that I can't detect probes without having a dscan module equipped, hate that I have to sacrifice cargo to haul more stuff.
I'd be pretty gitty to have changes like these for hunting.. that is till I lose my hunting ship because they bubbled the damn hole, threw garbage around it to decloak me and had 3 tornado's 90 km away. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:17:00 -
[685] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Said **** about polarization
In your very long post you confuse risk with suicide, the second you jump your last cap through to roll a C5 + hole or an Orca C4- your effectively reducing the mass to a point where anything that comes to your aid should you get jumped is trapped. They have 4 minutes 30 seconds (you seemed to be guessing at the time your polarized on one side so ill give you the exact time) to try and not get bumped of the hole and tank any DPS, those on the other side can warp in as many assets to the hole as they like knowing you can't bring help.
What this would mean is you loose the ability to control your chain, and a corp that is incapable of accessing its own chain at will is a dead one. This could happen only 3 or 4 times a week and members would become frustrated that they cannot do anything confined to there POS shields and exit out the first available door or stop playing eve altogether and go DOTA.
Yes many people have said this change or that would mean a mass exudes from W-Space and i have prity much disagreed with them all. But this would mean a definitive end to any small wh entities i can say that with some confidence as many of them don't feel comfortable rolling with hostiles spotted 2 WH's away never mind instr polarization.
So 3x no
Not even going near 3) + 4)...... |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9517
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:58:00 -
[686] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
83
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:09:00 -
[687] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
Good to know. It's good that you realise that the proposed changes are absolutely massive.
As to that huge post about polarisation and d-scan being a module and stuff... What are you smoking and where can I get some, it's obviously potent. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
51
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Posted - 2014.03.27 15:49:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
I queried before but I will try to get your attention again:
What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:59:00 -
[689] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote: What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause.
The problem being addressed is that there are meant to be areas of space that are graded in terms of your safety, High sec > Low sec > Null sec > WH's. All of eve operates on a risk reward system currently with the mechanics in place this scaling of safety is off. This is what the changes are here to address.
CCP Fozzie wrote:mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing |
Newt BlackCompany
Serene Vendetta
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:00:00 -
[690] - Quote
There's already a delay of a minute or so. You have to actively spam the 'show anomalies' button to see new sigs immediately. This is as it should be.
The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. WH life is already risky enough.
This will force all smaller wh corps to join the big alliances to be able to stay in the wh, and they often came here because they didn't want to deal with the politics and pressure and required ops in the nullsec alliances.
I don't think this is a change that's either desirable or needed.
It'd be very similar to removing, or delaying, local chat updating in Nullsec, and I'm guessing that would be an unpopular move.
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