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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5234
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
You could just not plug in +5s. They don't save much time and you'd have less reason to not PVP.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
353
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Or just get +3s they're cheap enough that if you get podded (which rarely happens in lowsec anyway) it doesn't matter |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1633
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
I haven't used learning implants for a very long time. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
208
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away.
Most of the time. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Wesley Otsdarva
Asuratech Industrial Corp
39
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1633
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk.
And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. Why force a decision between optimal training time and player interaction? I just don't understand this from a game design perspective. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15059
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.
So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine
Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
|
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masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1633
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. Why force a decision between optimal training time and player interaction? I just don't understand this from a game design perspective.
Risk vs reward. Actions have consequences. Diminishing returns on investment. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast.
Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1633
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast. Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve.
Oh no my skills aren't training as fast. I'm ruined. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
145
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zappity wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle. Well, you can either learn to not die, or get used to not having +5's. The latter comes into play if you fail to apply the former.
I haven't had anything that is not a Slave Set for well over a year now, and I don't regret it. My pew is worth much more than the few days I could save in a year long period. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15061
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zappity wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle.
Do you think T2 and faction ships should be removed also? Why should you be forced to choose between paying more ISK and having a more effective ship? The increased loss is just a penalty and a disincentive to PvP, right?
Actually, why should ships be destroyed at all....? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15061
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast. Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve.
No it isn't. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4622
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
+5s are in the clone I use when real life keeps me from playing the game for a while.
I view them as an added benefit for that purpose only. Otherwise my 3s work just fine. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast. Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve. No it isn't. Explain please. I don't understand how this supports the goal of increasing player interaction. If you are talking risk vs reward that could also be achieved by boosters which would be destroyed when podded. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1634
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast. Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve. No it isn't. Explain please. I don't understand how this supports the goal of increasing player interaction. If you are talking risk vs reward that could also be achieved by boosters which would be destroyed when podded.
I find it amazing how some players handicap themselves and become slaves to the skill que. Nothing is preventing you from interacting with others except yourself. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
|
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
254
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hey Zappity!
Well... the implants definitely have their spot in the game.
They are great for those who believe that they are worth it. Great for those who want to cut down on time needed to skill for stuff.
Problem arises only if those who want to skill fast are also those who like to pew!
You know that yourself. You question what they add to the game, while at the same time you're actually a happy user... until moments like this one come up.
Does that really make sense or is it just the "pain" or "fear of losing them" speaking here?
You seem to want to have both the cake and eat it at the same time... but we both know that won't work.
What it adds to the game is benefit for those who want to use them. It also adds thrill for those few who use them and at the same time RISK them. You know that too!
You say you don't want to jump into your PvP clone, because you don't want to lose the benefit...
Maybe you're taking it a bit more serious than necessary? Maybe the speedup isn't actually worth it for such short amounts of time? Have you done the math? How much do you lose if you don't have them plugged in for a week or two? And... do you REALLY lose anything?
What's worth more? The fun you could have (which you are missing out by choice, as you say), or the day or two you get to use something better/earlier?
Time goes by anyway, doesn't it? |
Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
215
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sounds like a classic tale of Risk vs. Reward. My signature got stolen (o.0) |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1828
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly) because you don't really risk your implants in hisec.
Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15062
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast. Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve. No it isn't. Explain please. I don't understand how this supports the goal of increasing player interaction. If you are talking risk vs reward that could also be achieved by boosters which would be destroyed when podded.
How does giving options hurt new player retention? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Sounds like a classic tale of Risk vs. Reward. My PvP implants are more expensive. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15062
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)
Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 23:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
[quote=MalcanisHow does giving options hurt new player retention?[/quote] How does sitting in a station help? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)
Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5. Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1635
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zappity wrote: How does sitting in a station help?
You are choosing to sit in the station. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Thead Enco
47th Ronin
131
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.
And this is why the "Risk adversed" will be the end of all of us....
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1828
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?
This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1635
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Malcanis wrote:Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI
I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1828
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part.
But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1636
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part. But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants.
It was a filter for the community. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Wesley Otsdarva
Asuratech Industrial Corp
39
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:
I find it amazing how some players handicap themselves and become slaves to the skill que. Nothing is preventing you from interacting with others except yourself.
This^ I wish I could like this more than once. I stopped being a slave to the queue when I forgot put in some really long skills and forgot the end dates missed about a week of training. After that I realized that the skills will finish when they finish. Never again did I spend time on EVE HQ finding optimal training plans or sit in highsec with a set implants.
A man chooses, A slave obeys. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15062
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Malcanis wrote:Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI
In fact it is.
Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.
Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.
Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?
If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.
So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?
1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed
2) That skills take too long to train. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15062
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)
Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5. Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade.
That's a better answer, but why would this require the removal of implants? Why not simply have both? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
568
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
A few points:
- people are far far too obsessed with SP, it has become a mini-game in its own right, especially for new players
- for most people the loss of +3s or +4s is not really a matter of finance, they are cheap enough you can afford to lose them. Its more a case of not wanting to give the other guy the bonus of a shiney pod killmail.
- seems to me completely empty clones are mainly used for suicide ganking or highly dangerous roams
- PvP clones only need two implants (as you switch your skill queue to whatever skills match the two implants in the clone) so even +4s in a PvP clone is only 45 mill at current market value
- if for some reason you have spare LP with a low LP/ISK ratio corp(fed navy comes to mind) they are good way of using otherwise excess hard to convert LP. (you would mad to spend sisters LP on generic implants though)
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1828
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:In fact it is.
Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.
Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.
Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?
If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.
So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?
1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed
2) That skills take too long to train.
NPCs don't engage pods, and until they do, saying that implants are risked outside of 0.0/w-space is a joke. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
PrettyMuch Always Right
University of Caille Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Malcanis wrote:Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI In fact it is. Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills. Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right. Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat? If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue. So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here? 1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed 2) That skills take too long to train. The issue for me is how it relates to new players.
New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so.
The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most.
I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players.
EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem! |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4623
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote: The issue for me is how it relates to new players.
New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so.
The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most.
I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players.
EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem!
Yeah, this isn't really true.
A new player will always be able to close the gap faster than a veteran can increase it. Implants aside, even.
The people who need it, are the people with month long training queues. We will not, ever, increase new player retention by turning their 9hr queue into an 8hr one. That's not even noticeable.
We will almost certainly lose older players by turning their 40 day queue into a 50 day one. Especially when those are the only things they have left.
A few hours here and there are nothing. Weeks here and there? Yeah, that's something. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Sibyyl
368
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
This is why you have multiple alts with +5 jump clones. Problem solved. Now that you are *campers* you will have more *parties* and no more *sad* *lonely* *bubbles*. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Hey Zappity!
Well... the implants definitely have their spot in the game.
They are great for those who believe that they are worth it. Great for those who want to cut down on time needed to skill for stuff.
Problem arises only if those who want to skill fast are also those who like to pew!
You know that yourself. You question what they add to the game, while at the same time you're actually a happy user... until moments like this one come up.
Does that really make sense or is it just the "pain" or "fear of losing them" speaking here?
You seem to want to have both the cake and eat it at the same time... but we both know that won't work.
What it adds to the game is benefit for those who want to use them. It also adds thrill for those few who use them and at the same time RISK them. You know that too!
You say you don't want to jump into your PvP clone, because you don't want to lose the benefit...
Maybe you're taking it a bit more serious than necessary? Maybe the speedup isn't actually worth it for such short amounts of time? Have you done the math? How much do you lose if you don't have them plugged in for a week or two? And... do you REALLY lose anything?
What's worth more? The fun you could have (which you are missing out by choice, as you say), or the day or two you get to use something better/earlier?
Time goes by anyway, doesn't it? Hey Solstice. Correct - I do want my cake and eat it too. It isn't about risk aversion but rather choosing between learning implants and PvP implants (or whatever other implants there are). I don't like it.
But Malcanis makes a good point - why not just have both? I would like learning drugs to stack on top of whatever implants I choose to sit in. Make 'em expensive. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4623
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zappity, why not make them expensive... and only available in lowsec? Might be a much needed economic boost for the denizens of low. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity, why not make them expensive... and only available in lowsec? Might be a much needed economic boost for the denizens of low. Do you know I almost wrote that in the OP but thought it would distract. Limit a required cloud to lowsec! We would see swarms of Ventures.
Oh, and allow them in contracts. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Zappity wrote: How does sitting in a station help?
You are choosing to sit in the station. Absolutely. I never said it was right or logical, just that it happens. And the result is that I am not there to be shot at. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
568
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 00:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote: The issue for me is how it relates to new players.
New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.
If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification.
The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further.
My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway.
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masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1639
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 01:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:PrettyMuch Always Right wrote: The issue for me is how it relates to new players.
New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.
If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification. The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further. My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway.
This is it. Right here.
Not everyone is cut out for EVE and it's best to discover that early. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
975
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 01:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:PrettyMuch Always Right wrote: The issue for me is how it relates to new players.
New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.
If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification. The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further. My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway. This is it. Right here. Not everyone is cut out for EVE and it's best to discover that early. Even better to provide more options to new players and keep them in the game. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Xeator
soldiers.fi
24
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 02:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
I really dont understand why people want to cling onto learning implants, its like the learning skills...
Just make it more streamlined eg: Available stat bonuses from implants +1, +2 and +3
In terms of learning speed +1 becomes the current +3 +2 becomes the current +4 +3 becomes the current +5
Current +5 and +4 are removed.
Current set implants with +3 are as strong as the old +5 with added bonuses.
There you have it, people can retain learning capability while having nice bonuses for flying ships.
Problem solved, everyone is happy. |
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
708
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 02:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days.....
Get away from me you filthy casual.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
338
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 02:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk.
500m for a full set now?
Damnit. I spent almost 2b for mine. Still wearing them though, so I don't see the problem. I only jump in my +5 clone when I know I'll be away from the game for a few weeks anyway. Used skill ghosting and +5s to get DI V.
Good times.
Why do we have the +5 implant mechanic?
Tears. Progress is meaningless without risk. You might as well argue that Titans are too expensive and the price should be reduced to encourage pvp.
Implants create opportunity but they also increase risk, which is pretty much the stated intent of the devs when introducing any mechanic. Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
287
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 03:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:You could just not plug in +5s. They don't save much time and you'd have less reason to not PVP. Mr Epeen
The difference between +4 and +5 is about the equivalent of training a 3x skill to level 5 over the course of a year. For some it is negligible, for me it matters. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
571
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 08:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Xeator wrote:I really dont understand why people want to cling onto learning implants, its like the learning skills...
Just make it more streamlined eg: Available stat bonuses from implants +1, +2 and +3
In terms of learning speed +1 becomes the current +3 +2 becomes the current +4 +3 becomes the current +5
Current +5 and +4 are removed.
Current set implants with +3 are as strong as the old +5 with added bonuses.
There you have it, people can retain learning capability while having nice bonuses for flying ships.
Problem solved, everyone is happy.
Sillyness, it is the 4 and 5 implants that need to go.
A better solution is leave +1 to +3 as is but double the price.
Then replace the +4 and +5 with modified +3s similiar to the CA implants. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
689
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 09:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
Zappity wrote:It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it. You're trying to get around EVE's rule #1. Also, since it seems to hurt, it's a balanced game mechanic.
Remove insurance. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
11656
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 09:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Never forget Learning Skills...
But yes it's a tough choice between learning implants or other cool implants.
/c
|
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Nick Starkey
Interstellar Steel Templis CALSF
36
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 09:36:00 -
[57] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away. Most of the time. It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.
It would not be a bad idea if they changed implants to something similar to the starter boosters, though. Temporary effect but not lost if you get podded. It would maintain the same demand (as people still have to replace them periodically), while not favouring the alts that stay in station all day over the people who are actually doing something in the game.
Either way I'm fine with it. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
977
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 09:42:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.
Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
34
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 09:44:00 -
[59] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away. Most of the time. It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.
No it does not discourage PVP, it doesn't even have anything to do with PVP.
Only in game effect of learning implants is that they increase the rate of SP accumulation. |
Nick Starkey
Interstellar Steel Templis CALSF
36
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:17:00 -
[60] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.
orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.
They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. |
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
978
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.
My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.
I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.
I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Sibyyl
372
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
Should breast implants be a thing in NeX Store? Of course it'd be only fair that you lose them if you get podded.. Now that you are *campers* you will have more *parties* and no more *sad* *lonely* *bubbles*. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2201
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
I have always used +3 implants, they were all I could afford when I started to play, and as I die quite a lot in pvp it would be prohibitively expensive for me to use +5s.
One simply gets used to the time required to train skills using +3s and it stops being a case of, but I want to train faster!
I am training Marauder V right now, and it will be done when it's done.
I just hope I have not died of old age before it is complete :) This is not a signature. |
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
84
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:Malcanis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Malcanis wrote:Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI In fact it is. Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills. Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right. Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat? If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue. So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here? 1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed 2) That skills take too long to train. The issue for me is how it relates to new players. New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so. The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most. I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players. EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem!
I am sorry but there is NO "keep up with vets" Vets are vets because they invested the time and it is their privilege to have. This is the one major plus to eve. We all progress at the same time and eventually we get to that goal we set.
All this boost new player SP gain will do is those VETS that make a living in selling characters will have an easier time. Also this is not that other game where you can just jump in and two weeks of you time invested in it you are running end game.
Nothing stops a new player from training cybernetics to 5 and slapping in a set of +5. All the mechanics are in game already for this.
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
34
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost. My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP. I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds. I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.
It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
979
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost. My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP. I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds. I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else. It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants. Yes. Feel better now? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
34
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
Yes, now just change the thread title accordingly and we can let this thread die in peace :)
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
689
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 10:59:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost. My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP. I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds. I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.
Remove insurance. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1436
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:03:00 -
[69] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)
Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5. Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants? Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade. i don't want to replace my constant boost by temporary. What for? I happily have enough implants in my head and it doesnt' prevent me from undocking The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
257
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
Zappity wrote:But Malcanis makes a good point - why not just have both? I would like learning drugs to stack on top of whatever implants I choose to sit in. Make 'em expensive. Price isn't a balancing factor.
ISK is too easily accumulated.
They'd need a rather strong downside instead. |
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1436
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:05:00 -
[71] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part. But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants. not really.
that story just shown that we have a lot more stupid players inside our community than we thought The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
257
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:05:00 -
[72] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants. Well that was obvious right from the beginning... |
Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
291
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:07:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sounds to me like you love learning implants too much. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Linna Baresi
34
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:13:00 -
[74] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle. Do you think T2 and faction ships should be removed also? Why should you be forced to choose between paying more ISK and having a more effective ship? The increased loss is just a penalty and a disincentive to PvP, right? Actually, why should ships be destroyed at all....?
I understand where the OP comes from. I too think it's a fairly bad mechanic. As a new player, there is SO MUCH to learn... and it all takes lots and lots and lots of time. I've seen people in chat who said they were only logging in their characters to train during the first year of their sub... which is just an appalling notion.
And contrary to what one of the previous posters said, +5 implants save a great deal of training time, even when compared to +3 implants. On a one year training plan, it can save as much as 90 days. That's hardly insignificant, especially to a new player.
I completely agree that it makes sense to have skill enhancing implants, and to have those destroyed on podding. But the whole idea of learning implants needs to be overhauled, because once you have them, it IS a deterrent to actually going out and trying things. Sure, there's jump clones, but that's precious training time lost....
Member of <Fated> since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1437
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
Zappity wrote: I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose.
would it be OK for you if i just forbid you from using learning implants?
If so you have my word: "Zappity, from now you MUST NOT use any learning implants".
Now i saved you from painful choices. No need to thank
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15075
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:39:00 -
[76] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost. My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP. I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds. I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.
But what you want is for me to not be able to to choose. Thanks buddy, but please don't try and do me any more favours like that..
I'm quite happy with the idea of a consumable booster that can be used (non-cumulatively) for people who want to use them; I think they're a really good idea. I am opposed to the idea of removing an existing choice to make a permanent investment.
Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
983
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Zappity wrote:Nick Starkey wrote:Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept. Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff. orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all. They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that. I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost. My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP. I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds. I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else. But what you want is for me to not be able to to choose. Thanks buddy, but please don't try and do me any more favours like that.. I'm quite happy with the idea of a consumable booster that can be used (non-cumulatively) for people who want to use them; I think they're a really good idea. I am opposed to the idea of removing an existing choice to make a permanent investment. I already commented that your suggestion to have both was better. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Arianne Stone
Screaming Hayabusa
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 11:49:00 -
[78] - Quote
You don't have to choose, you don't need pirate implants to pvp. |
Obvious Cyno
The Scope Gallente Federation
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 12:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.
How do you even get podded in lowsec? i genuinely find it difficult. |
Johm Luck
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 12:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
You should be able to swap to clones in the same station without triggering the cooldown. Such an obvious solution. But CCP doesn't want you to change clones because then you could get by with fewer characters. |
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Dagar Bly
EvE Character Portrait REDUX
28
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 13:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
Don't post ideas in GD, all you get is 4 pages of "I like the way it is", sometimes more.. http://eveportraitcontest.webs.com |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 13:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
Dagar Bly wrote:Don't post ideas in GD, all you get is 4 pages of "I like the way it is", sometimes more..
I agree with the OP idea of getting rid of implants. SP obsession is bad and dumping implants is a step in the right direction.
Problem was, it was really a stealth thread about BOOSTING (rather than nerfing) SP training by making the temporary +17 etc new player boosters availble to everyone as a new form of in game drug. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17051
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 17:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.
Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no? This.
No implant has ever stopped me playing the game. If you find it stops you, then don't use them.
In fact my +5 set happens to be the cheapest clone I have and when I had time to play last, would often fly in them. Not due to the price, but simply because I couldn't be bothered to change clones.
If learning implants were removed, you would simply moan about something else stopping you playing. Plus, it is rather difficult to lose a pod in low and high sec.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2585
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 17:38:00 -
[84] - Quote
Zappity wrote: It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.
I find the repetition of this thread surprising coming from you, Zappity.
I know for a fact that implants of any type are not a discouragement for you personally to PvP.
Because you want to be out PvPing. And so you do.
Anyone that tells you that their implants 'prevent' them from PvPing is a liar.
What prevents them from PvPing is the fact that they want to build SP more than they want to be PvPing. Otherwise they would use a lesser set of implants, no implants, or would not care about losing the implants they have.
Supposedly these people 'want to PvP,' and yet they deliberately 'prevent' themselves from doing it by plugging in implants. Where is the sense in this?
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2585
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 17:44:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: SP obsession is bad and dumping implants is a step in the right direction.
Sadly, dumping implants is not going to get rid of SP obsession.
The moment the implants go, they will start their **** about remapping.
And when remapping is gone, and everyone has the MAX_SKILLS_DURR_HURR from all those bonuses being rolled into the baseline character (because rarely do these people just want the advantage to go away, they usually want to keep/gain the bonus for free) they will start pushing even harder for SP boosters.
SP boosters that will still give the space rich and vets a decided advantage over the misguided plebes that wanted all this in the first place. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 17:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
How about just get rid of the bloody things and give EVERYONE 5 more points for each attribute... |
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER CODE.
175
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
you only need 2 +4 implants never a full set, skills need only 2 attributes. And that's cheap |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. Why force a decision between optimal training time and player interaction? I just don't understand this from a game design perspective.
Because +1 to +5 implants used to be the only implants there were (other than hardwiring). For a long time they only went up to +3.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2585
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
Linna Baresi wrote: And contrary to what one of the previous posters said, +5 implants save a great deal of training time, even when compared to +3 implants. On a one year training plan, it can save as much as 90 days.
On a one year training plan, spent sitting in those implants, yes.
When you bounce in and out of them on a regular basis, they start to lose their luster quickly.
I make one year skill plans. So that I know what I will be training this year. My current one year plan was begun on January 3rd. At that point, it was set to end on December 30th at around midnight local time. Due to time already spent in blank clones for roaming nullsec and other JC activity, it is now set to end on January 6th, 2015 at midday. I have all ideas that it will ultimately end somewhere around the 3rd week of January 2015.
These over runs are not wasted time. The reasons for the overruns (getting out of one clone and into another to partake of some sort of game play) is the only valuable time, because it was entertaining time spent playing. I don't play EVE with the skillqueue open, pawing myself with glee as the timer counts down, because that timer is so ******* awesome. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2585
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:How about just get rid of the bloody things and give EVERYONE 5 more points for each attribute...
How about we get rid of them and give no one any bonus at all?
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:How about just get rid of the bloody things and give EVERYONE 5 more points for each attribute... How about we get rid of them and give no one any bonus at all?
Learning Skills
|
Agondray
Dark Forge Enterprise Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
93
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 19:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Wesley Otsdarva wrote:Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.
Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk. And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship. Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle. Do you think T2 and faction ships should be removed also? Why should you be forced to choose between paying more ISK and having a more effective ship? The increased loss is just a penalty and a disincentive to PvP, right? Actually, why should ships be destroyed at all....?
your right if ships didn't get destroyed more people would pvp like in world of tanks and such since that's all that exist. Also get rid of the killboards and kbnazi's won't worry about losses and pvp more. although not losing ships and all will cause prices to go up and Industry will become not needed
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mine" -Dr. Smith |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2586
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 19:35:00 -
[93] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:How about just get rid of the bloody things and give EVERYONE 5 more points for each attribute... How about we get rid of them and give no one any bonus at all? Learning Skills
That's nice. Do you have a point you would like to make using complete sentences?
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 21:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:I know for a fact that implants of any type are not a discouragement for you personally to PvP. Domanique is probably referring to the time she podded me in a low grade snake set. That was a good fight although a disappointing derp at the end. These things happen!
Domanique Altares wrote:On a one year training plan, spent sitting in those implants, yes.
When you bounce in and out of them on a regular basis, they start to lose their luster quickly.
I make one year skill plans. So that I know what I will be training this year. My current one year plan was begun on January 3rd. At that point, it was set to end on December 30th at around midnight local time. Due to time already spent in blank clones for roaming nullsec and other JC activity, it is now set to end on January 6th, 2015 at midday. I have all ideas that it will ultimately end somewhere around the 3rd week of January 2015.
These over runs are not wasted time. The reasons for the overruns (getting out of one clone and into another to partake of some sort of game play) is the only valuable time, because it was entertaining time spent playing. I don't play EVE with the skillqueue open, pawing myself with glee as the timer counts down, because that timer is so ******* awesome. Yes, this is the correct attitude. I think a lot of people don't think this way, though. I checked my own one year queue and found a 40 day difference between +5 and a low grade set +2.
I would still like to see +2, +3, +4, +5 boosters (non-stackable with implants) but until they arrive I think I'll just ignore my +5 set unless I'm going away. I still wonder how many fights are not given because of this. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
287
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
Linna Baresi wrote:But the whole idea of learning implants needs to be overhauled, because once you have them, it IS a deterrent to actually going out and trying things. Sure, there's jump clones, but that's precious training time lost....
This assumes that everyone should be engaging in PvP on a regular basis. There is no intrinsic authority for that position. Not everyone wants to engage in null/lowsec PvP on a regular basis. Those people should be allowed to play as they wish, with the added risk that being podded will result in a huge ISK loss.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2162
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:42:00 -
[96] - Quote
Yay,
This thread again.
CCP has already determined what the base training rate should be. Everyone trains at least at this rate minimum.
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
I have spent most of my EVE time in hostile WH space. I have never used more that +3 learning implants and I have never felt my EVE experience has been diminished in any way.
Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with the implant system as it stands.
|
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1650
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:46:00 -
[97] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
This is exactly correct. I know it's hard for some people to understand they aren't automatically entitled to the best of everything, but it's true. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
287
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:47:00 -
[98] - Quote
Linna Baresi wrote:
And contrary to what one of the previous posters said, +5 implants save a great deal of training time, even when compared to +3 implants. On a one year training plan, it can save as much as 90 days. That's hardly insignificant, especially to a new player.
No it doesn't. Over +3 implants on a one year timeline the difference in SP gain is 1,576,800. That is only 26 days of additional time to train at the lower +3 rate of 2,520 per hour.
Even over no implants the +5 give 3,942,000 additional SP over a year. That is only 73 days additional training at the lower +0 rate of 2,250 per hour.
Your claim of 90 days is too high. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20728
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:59:00 -
[99] - Quote
GǪnot to mention that, if you're really that nutty about you skill training time, you'll be running year-long +10/+4 remaps anyway so you only ever need to have two learning implants at risk (and as others have pointed out, that pair can easily be the cheapest part of your implant setup).
SoGǪAlyth Nerun wrote:you only need 2 +4 implants never a full set, skills need only 2 attributes. And that's cheap GǪthis. That's all of 40M GÇö probably less than the cost of the ship + fittings GÇö and over a year you lose a whopping 788,400 SP compared to +5s. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:03:00 -
[100] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
This is exactly correct. I know it's hard for some people to understand they aren't automatically entitled to the best of everything, but it's true.
Spend and risk the ISK.
I lost a set of CA's and +4s a few weeks back cos I got bored and went on a null roam in a faction frigate and picked a fight I shouldn't have with something way bigger and insta locking and was to slow warping away. I was like "meh just ISK" while thinking that guy is going to get a surprise when he sees the pod killmail (140 mill pod, 10 mill frigate). |
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:07:00 -
[101] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
This is exactly correct. I know it's hard for some people to understand they aren't automatically entitled to the best of everything, but it's true. Spend and risk the ISK. I lost a set of CA's and +4s a few weeks back cos I got bored and went on a null roam in a faction frigate and picked a fight I shouldn't have with something way bigger and insta locking and was to slow warping away. I was like "meh just ISK" while thinking that guy is going to get a surprise when he sees the pod killmail (140 mill pod, 10 mill frigate). The last pod I lost cost 700m. This has nothing to do with ISK. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
34
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:20:00 -
[102] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
This is exactly correct. I know it's hard for some people to understand they aren't automatically entitled to the best of everything, but it's true. Spend and risk the ISK. I lost a set of CA's and +4s a few weeks back cos I got bored and went on a null roam in a faction frigate and picked a fight I shouldn't have with something way bigger and insta locking and was to slow warping away. I was like "meh just ISK" while thinking that guy is going to get a surprise when he sees the pod killmail (140 mill pod, 10 mill frigate). The last pod I lost cost 700m. This has nothing to do with ISK.
Isn't this all about isk? The fact that you don't want to risk +5s in pvp because they are too expensive? |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:32:00 -
[103] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Isn't this all about isk? The fact that you don't want to risk +5s in pvp because they are too expensive? No:
Chribba wrote:Never forget Learning Skills...
But yes it's a tough choice between learning implants or other cool implants.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1651
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Organic Lager wrote:Isn't this all about isk? The fact that you don't want to risk +5s in pvp because they are too expensive? No: Chribba wrote:Never forget Learning Skills...
But yes it's a tough choice between learning implants or other cool implants.
So you don't want to make choices? Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
573
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:40:00 -
[105] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Zappity wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
The use of implants is a priviledge for those willing to spend the isk for them. They are not a right or requirement.
This is exactly correct. I know it's hard for some people to understand they aren't automatically entitled to the best of everything, but it's true. Spend and risk the ISK. I lost a set of CA's and +4s a few weeks back cos I got bored and went on a null roam in a faction frigate and picked a fight I shouldn't have with something way bigger and insta locking and was to slow warping away. I was like "meh just ISK" while thinking that guy is going to get a surprise when he sees the pod killmail (140 mill pod, 10 mill frigate). The last pod I lost cost 700m. This has nothing to do with ISK. Isn't this all about isk? The fact that you don't want to risk +5s in pvp because they are too expensive?
The only reason my losec hauling and PI alts are pretty much empty is I do not want to encourage gankers in my PI areas by offering them good killmails. A well set up PI alt could lose a set of +5s every month and still turn a good profit.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:40:00 -
[106] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Zappity wrote:Organic Lager wrote:Isn't this all about isk? The fact that you don't want to risk +5s in pvp because they are too expensive? No: Chribba wrote:Never forget Learning Skills...
But yes it's a tough choice between learning implants or other cool implants. So you don't want to make choices? Why can't we have MORE choices? I want to choose between learning boosters and learning implants. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4654
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:42:00 -
[107] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Why can't we have MORE choices? I want to choose between learning boosters and learning implants.
My suggestion would be, that since the topic of the thread has diverged significantly as a result of the discussion, that you take the time to write it out for F&I.
Because you now have a concrete idea with which to build such a suggestion on. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
21
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.
how about you learn how to fly around low sec with +5's instead of trying to get them removed since its not exactly that hard to select a celestial and click warp several times as your ship blows up to warp out to safely, besides this game isn't just about pvp as you well know. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2163
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:56:00 -
[109] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The last pod I lost cost 700m. This has nothing to do with ISK.
Really? Because your OP seems to prettly clearly indicate your issue with exploding with your +5's in. As well as your comments that these implants discourage PVP (due to cost).
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 00:21:00 -
[110] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:How about just get rid of the bloody things and give EVERYONE 5 more points for each attribute... How about we get rid of them and give no one any bonus at all? Learning Skills That's nice. Do you have a point you would like to make using complete sentences?
My apologies, I tend to forget not everyone has been around long enough to know anything about EvE history.
When CCP killed Learning Skills they refunded the SP and they normalized the attributes to be roughly equivalent to having them, so the logical move for them to make would be to do something similar if they removed the +attribute implants. Which means normalizing attributes again (and hopefully allowing for more extreme mapping) and reimbursing the obsolete implants (which I don't really care about).
|
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
574
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 00:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Why can't we have MORE choices? I want to choose between learning boosters and learning implants.
My suggestion would be, that since the topic of the thread has diverged significantly as a result of the discussion, that you take the time to write it out for F&I. Because you now have a concrete idea with which to build such a suggestion on.
Though if posting in F&I, I would suggest a title other than "I hate Implants". |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4658
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 00:59:00 -
[112] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Why can't we have MORE choices? I want to choose between learning boosters and learning implants.
My suggestion would be, that since the topic of the thread has diverged significantly as a result of the discussion, that you take the time to write it out for F&I. Because you now have a concrete idea with which to build such a suggestion on. Though if posting in F&I, I would suggest a title other than "I hate Implants".
Personally, I don't hate implants, although I do prefer naturals. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2965
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 03:21:00 -
[113] - Quote
Moving this from General Discussion to Features and Ideas. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 03:25:00 -
[114] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Why can't we have MORE choices? I want to choose between learning boosters and learning implants.
My suggestion would be, that since the topic of the thread has diverged significantly as a result of the discussion, that you take the time to write it out for F&I. Because you now have a concrete idea with which to build such a suggestion on. Good idea. Thanks ISD Dorrim.
I have updated the OP. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
408
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 04:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mag's wrote:[quote=Malcanis][quote=Zappity]I hateIf learning implants were removed, you would simply moan about something else stopping you playing. .
This. It be cost of these boosters they'd whine about next. Just don't see residents of delve being charitable selling the booster gas only in their region (name is escaping me, someone chime in to jog my memory if you want). Currently they are "nice" as they can't gouge too high...most don't need certain boosters to the point they will crap away stupid isk for them.
Make it so everyone needs thier gas components....they will charge. Not seeing drug pos owners being nice price wise either. Current implants get a price break...lp turn ins or storyline drops make it so sellers can't gouge. This takes a heavy empire source item set and turns it all over to low/0.0. Not getting warm fuzzy feelings from that personally.
Also haven't scoured this thread but have not seen side affects mentioned in brief look over. So what shall thay be....as boosters have side affects. Kind of needed...or peeps would be popping current combat drugs full time. Me I saved this for special occassions.
Which also leads to cost, again Isk and time costs in fact.. Neurotoxin control is not exactly a cheap skill. its about 169 mil to get this skill...jsut not seeing the new player friendly aspect here. Hell if memory serves this price is much greater than full spectrum learning skill cost back in the day. Which I recall as a noob was a pita to cough up the isk for to get at first even.
And as we throw in a few more skills they'd they'd whine as they brought learning skills part 2 on themselves. Which is what all these booster/related skills would be. Skill to increase duration, side effects....it be some time spent in these skills. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 05:01:00 -
[116] - Quote
sci0gon wrote:Zappity wrote:Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations. how about you learn how to fly around low sec with +5's instead of trying to get them removed since its not exactly that hard to select a celestial and click warp several times as your ship blows up to warp out to safely, besides this game isn't just about pvp as you well know.
Exchange +5's with "learning skills" and your argument/point of view would still be terrible.
Add +5 to each attribute then come out with new cool hardwires for us to use to replace them in the LP store. It helps everyone and if there still needs to be learning boosts have it be from drugs. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 05:34:00 -
[117] - Quote
Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...i worked out roughly that to train a lvl 5 skill with +3's takes about 5 days more than +5's. Just how much extra would you do with a skill 5 days sooner? |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 06:14:00 -
[118] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:32:00 -
[119] - Quote
I comprehend just fine. You hate implants and want boosters as well so you can fly at less risk whilst still training at the same rate. That is less risk for the same reward. Make the boosters expensive to counter this and you simply favour the rich. Not undocking is a player choice based upon their willingness to lose stuff. Making that choice trivial by introducing easy ways to avoid the risk and you break the risk/reward balance.persoalky i don't think fitting anything in your clone or ship that would ever stop you undocking is a good idea. Why limit yourself for the sake of a little patience? |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17053
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:58:00 -
[120] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Well it is in fact far worse than that. The reason you give for change is as follows:
I do not want to PvP in my learning implants because I am l33t.
Hardly a valid reason.
Oh and you'd do far better, by removing the hate line in the OP and title.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Well it is in fact far worse than that. The reason you give for change is as follows: I do not want to PvP in my learning implants because I am l33t.Hardly a valid reason. Oh and you'd do far better, by removing the hate line in the OP and title. I never said it was a valid reason and that was meant to be tongue in cheek. But consider that I could have replaced that with something about implants for mining yield (a mining ship not out there getting ganked), warp speed for freighters (another ship not out there getting ganked), whatever a mission runner might use their implants for (I have no idea, sorry), etc etc.
The only truly solo activity I can think of in game is the skill queue. Everything else I can think of involves some level of interaction: markets, PvP, just flying around in space, whatever. Training skills occurs entirely without player interactions. This should never be promoted above activities which do result in interaction.
The current situation is that if you want to maximise skill training, a truly solo activity, you have to reduce efficiency in some other aspect of your gameplay. This discourages the other gameplay, to whatever degree. Whether this is sound logic from the player is irrelevant - I have already said that this is NOT a good reason to stay docked. But it still happens.
And so it is not good design. Give us an alternative to maximise skill training without gimping other playstyles. Give us boosters! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 09:51:00 -
[122] - Quote
I have to say that if a player doesn't undock because of implants and you bring in boosters instead (thus nerfing the risk/reqard of players who *will* undock in said implants) the players who won't undock will still stay docked. They are risk averse. They don't want to lose stuff at any cost. Next they would complain about clone expense and why do we have to pay for them (and peope already are complaining about it). Or some other reason.
Those who do not undock will play the game in the same way no matter what you nerf to make it more palatable for them. As I pointed out earlier the difference in learning time between +3's and +5's is about 5 days or so. What is so important to do in that 5 days that means a player who doesn't want to lose +5's can't just do what they currently do for less than a week?
Crap grammar and syntax here before the academic police jump on me :D I'm just typing quickly in work :) |
iskflakes
905
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 10:07:00 -
[123] - Quote
If I understand this right, the OP is saying: Why should I have to choose between learning and PVP implants? The choice encourages people to jump clone to a +5 set, which reduces interaction.
If this is what he is saying, then I agree with him. It's a stupid choice that players are forced to make, and speaking from personal experience it has caused decreased player interaction. If a player has enough money for a +5 set AND a pirate implant set, they should be able to get the benefits of both simultaneously.
I don't like the idea of attribute boosters though. I would rather see the learning bonus on the pirate implant sets changed to +5. That way everybody can stay in their PVP sets all the time and not be forced into making a tradeoff between PVP success and training time, which is an artificial one.
An alternative solution is to make learning and PVP implants occupy different slots, so that if somebody wants to pay for both then they can. - |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 10:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
it isn't an artificial choice though by that measure...you are choosing better PvP performance over increased learning time. If the player with learning implants in then chooses not to undock they should reconsider the level of learning implants they are willing to lose. Again people seem to be hung up on how many SP they have and that isn't the defining attribute in the game, only the SP in the skills you are currently using count in any way. The difference between using +3's and +5's is not that much. Whilst it is nice to train a little faster it isn't worth it if it'll stop you from undocking. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
10
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 11:45:00 -
[125] - Quote
Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 11:58:00 -
[126] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me.
Agreed, I proposed the same in one of the various threads on this subject, although I think I made it reduced by 3 hours per level, phr cooldown minimum so the average player would probably have to trade a days play for a days lower training, but not be so constrained by JC times. 1 hour per level just seems way too low for that skill. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1883
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 14:25:00 -
[127] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Well it is in fact far worse than that. The reason you give for change is as follows: I do not want to PvP in my learning implants because I am l33t.Hardly a valid reason. Oh and you'd do far better, by removing the hate line in the OP and title.
I agree with you on that point but, I think the intention is that these prevent playing the game like learning skills did. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
991
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:01:00 -
[128] - Quote
Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1208
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 23:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
+4's are just as good as +5's, unless your so super anal about your sp'hour its physically painful to get less, in that case though i recommend going back to raiding in WoW.
as for your cowardess tor eamin docked because of implants. I routinely PvP in +4's, because i want the training speed, but im not going to suffocate on the stench of cowards in station. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 01:16:00 -
[130] - Quote
to all those whining about 'risk averse players' and nullsec gouging the market, please look at the (updated) front post:
the gas would come from low, thus preventing too much of a monopoly the OP claims to fly PVP with more expensive implants than +5's (I presume this is something like a snake set or w/e) he also claims to know how to keep his pod safe (mostly) the boosters would cap out at a certain attribute max so +5's wouldn't benefit from using them +5's have taken a month or two off my skill plan to date, and I've had them a smidgen over a year (I also remap, which probably helps....) this is not about being able to JC back and forth quickly - it's about being able to swap to your uber PVP clone without suffering too many learning penalties for those times when you have half an hour or so....
I think OP's forgotten that at some point these boosters will finish, and you're in the same boat - and no - I do not think that having them last for a week or so is viable. For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
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Johm Luck
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me.
Zappity wrote:Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further.
Johm Luck wrote:...swap to clones in the same station without triggering the cooldown.
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
713
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:43:00 -
[132] - Quote
So summarising this entire thread and those that spawned it.
Those who have the skills are in favour of training being a long rewarding progression to eve nirvana.
Those who are yet to gain the skills would like the training to be shorter by whatever means can be made possible, either by reducing the time needed or with a mechanic that maximises training speed.
Which method will result in player retention or gain, and which will maintain the status quo?
Will a change similar to removing learning skills, make the game worthless for existing players? Will a change similar to removing learning skills, make the game more enjoyable for players under 1 or 2 years of game age.
Sometimes we avoid asking the right questions and will not listen to them when asked, because we are afraid of the answer.
Maybe we should be either asking the right question or be willing to listen to the answer rather than hiding from it by finding fault with the mechanic or the questioners fitness to ask it in the first place. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
369
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 13:12:00 -
[133] - Quote
To answer this point...I am not one with massive SP, only been here just over 6 months. I am perfectly happy with SP rate and implant levels (along with remap limits) as they stand. It is not slow to learn a new career, it does however take time to perfect it which is as it should be. There are very few careers you cannot turn to relatively quickly, and usually those that take longer are because they are very specialized which again is as it should be.
I like the choice I get from remaps and implants. I choose to fly in +3's as a compromise between cost and SP rate. I have the choice to do so because of the current system. People should make their choice and live with the consequences...you can always make another choice if you aren't happy with your current one. |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
46
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 17:18:00 -
[134] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further. Reducing JC timers would hardly increase power projection. It's already possible to just podjump around, which is what many/most nullsec alliances actually do. Podjump costs are almost completely negligible even for >100m SP pilots, that is to say they're an annoying and dumb inconvenience to pay but not something that will discourage people from podjumping to that stratop if they have to. If you have expensive implants, just jump to an empty clone and podjump.
What reducing JC timers would do is increase convenience. The current clone/attribute system greatly disfavours some groups of people and favours others -- clone costs are completely negligible to people with less than 70-ish million SP and don't really discourage people from podjumping, while they discourage pilots with 150m SP from going on drunken zero-fugs-given roams in T1 frigates into nullsec because their empty pod will cost more than the entire fleet combined (which I repeat isn't a prohibitive cost, but a principally annoying one).
Additionally, the implants/attributes system disfavours people with low SP who really need those critical skills to get into the game properly, while the effect is greatly diminished for people with high SP. The starter pack learning boosters help this to some degree, but I would consider it somewhat of a bandaid fix to a fundamentally illogical system. For a veteran pilot a 4-day train is a short one, but for a newbie fresh and excited about the game it can feel like an eternity, especially if it's the thing keeping them from progressing to the next step.
Personally I feel like skill training time should be a constant, same for everyone, or alternatively favour fresh characters instead of old or rich characters who can afford learning implants. SP is the most fundamental concept in Eve, and the way attributes interact with it feels kind of out of place and outdated. The whole remap/implant system feels like it was specifically built to give veteran players training alts an edge, while shafting newbies who waste all their remaps and put SP into mining.
As a side note, removing learning skills had to be the best thing CCP's ever done to fix the training system. Back when I started and they were still in the game I actually took a month's (or two's) break just logging in to train learning skills so I wouldn't be rump ravaged trying to train other skills. That definitely wasn't my fondest memory of Eve (but getting the "free" SP later when they were finally removed felt kinda good), and I wouldn't mind another change like the removal of learning skills, be that removing clone grades altogether or doing something about the silly attribute system. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
157
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 17:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away. Most of the time. It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.
Amazing how most people fail at reading comprehension.
You are 100% correct, learning implants do nothing but encourage risk aversion. Even if you are loaded, you still don't want to pvp with a full set of +5's and run into that smartbombing Maller.
In my opinion, learning implants are as outdated as learning skills were. They don't add content to the game, they remove it.
A solution could be the way that jump clone cooldowns work, (once per 20 hour period rather than jumping, then starting a 20 hour cooldown), but that might cause imbalances elsewhere.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
372
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 17:52:00 -
[136] - Quote
Burneddi wrote: Additionally, the implants/attributes system disfavours people with low SP who really need those critical skills to get into the game properly, while the effect is greatly diminished for people with high SP.
I have to disagree here...I've been playing just over six months and have been building control towers for 4 months, and inventing tech II goods for two, this is whilst still running missions. I made choices that worked out for me and in no way believe that the progression in careers I can perform is slow |
Johm Luck
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 19:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
This has nothing to do with SP. It's about whether the movement and implant switching abilities of jump clones should be separated. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 20:40:00 -
[138] - Quote
I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1016
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 20:59:00 -
[139] - Quote
Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 21:43:00 -
[140] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP.
Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea.
Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago. |
|
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 21:58:00 -
[141] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea. Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago.
oh... but wait... no wonder this thread looked so familiar! It looks like this one.
So... all things considered, my thoughts between the two are the same: no need to get rid of learning implants (which I know the OP is not proposing) and having learning boosters added would be peachy. Cause it would cap my +3s across the board.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1016
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Posted - 2014.04.18 23:04:00 -
[142] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea. Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago. Oh, sorry. Fair enough and carry on! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
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