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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1383
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 14:51:00 -
[811] - Quote
@Vayn Baxtor - have a like for a constructive post.
@Cassius Invictus - do you have anything to add to the discussion other than Goonspiracy, a clear lack of having read the thread before posting and a sneaky troll in the form of point 3? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
192
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 17:56:00 -
[812] - Quote
I'd like it if they just made it so you can only post with your highest SP character. Easiest way to do it to allow new bros to post while keeping out the alts.
Two problems with that. 1) Trial accounts. Newbros in trial should definitely be able to post, so we might have to just bite the bullet from disposable 3week scout/forum alts posting. (but the trolls don't get to keep their names/faces and they have to put in a little effort every 3 weeks to be ablet o post again)
2) Alt accounts - Yea its a problem, but I don't think there's a way to stop this either. Pretty easy to get a scout alt into a random corp/alliance. Also, it will be the highest SP character on the alt account, so there's that as well. |
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 17:59:00 -
[813] - Quote
I do not like this idea. "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2604
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 18:05:00 -
[814] - Quote
I do, I think this needs more discussion. "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7695
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 18:22:00 -
[815] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:I do not like this idea.
Why should you, it's aimed at you.
I on the other hand think it's a great idea, there is far, far too much trolling that can be laid at the feet of NPC corp characters having posting privileges. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 19:24:00 -
[816] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:I do not like this idea. Why should you, it's aimed at you. I on the other hand think it's a great idea, there is far, far too much trolling that can be laid at the feet of NPC corp characters having posting privileges.
I choose to stay in the starting Corp to help the new people.
And here is a quote for my rebuttal.
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionists.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me." - Martin Niem+Śller "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 20:48:00 -
[817] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:I do not like this idea. Why should you, it's aimed at you. I on the other hand think it's a great idea, there is far, far too much trolling that can be laid at the feet of NPC corp characters having posting privileges. No there isn't, there's just as much if not more, from player corps. And this is the most troll free game forum in existence. We've been over this. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7700
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:24:00 -
[818] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote: I choose to stay in the starting Corp to help the new people. *snipped out not applicable quote*
You can do that in the Help Channel.
And your quote is entirely not applicable, as NPC corp trolls are basically analogous to actual criminals.
Elfi Wolfe wrote: No there isn't, there's just as much if not more, from player corps. And this is the most troll free game forum in existence. We've been over this.
The current state of CAOD, compared to what it once was, disagrees with you. You lot can't sidestep that one. By prohibiting NPC corp posting in that forum, it has been cleaned up to an incredible degree. Turns out, most of the trolling was from the people who were then given a barrier to entry. However that might have been, it had results.
Some of us now want that result to be applied to other forums that suffer in measure to CAOD's past. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:31:00 -
[819] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote: I choose to stay in the starting Corp to help the new people. *snipped out not applicable quote*
You can do that in the Help Channel. And your quote is entirely not applicable, as NPC corp trolls are basically analogous to actual criminals. Elfi Wolfe wrote: No there isn't, there's just as much if not more, from player corps. And this is the most troll free game forum in existence. We've been over this.
The current state of CAOD, compared to what it once was, disagrees with you. You lot can't sidestep that one. By prohibiting NPC corp posting in that forum, it has been cleaned up to an incredible degree. Turns out, most of the trolling was from the people who were then given a barrier to entry. However that might have been, it had results. Some of us now want that result to be applied to other forums that suffer in measure to CAOD's past. Which forums that suffer? I don't see one with a trolling problem. I see the general forum with low post quality and that's because its a general forum. That's what its there for, posting stuff that isn't really content. But its not trolling, its just non-content. And then there's the WH forum where ALL the trolling is by player corps and there's almost NO constructive posting or threads of any substance. Again, I'm seriously unimpressed with this concept. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1234
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:38:00 -
[820] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The current state of CAOD, compared to what it once was, disagrees with you. You lot can't sidestep that one. By prohibiting NPC corp posting in that forum, it has been cleaned up to an incredible degree. Turns out, most of the trolling was from the people who were then given a barrier to entry. However that might have been, it had results.
Some of us now want that result to be applied to other forums that suffer in measure to CAOD's past. The current state of CAOD has no bearing whatsoever on making an objective analysis of who starts, and just as importantly who exasperates, trolling by counter trolling for pages on end. What I see indicates a number of regular and highly active corp player offenders. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7701
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:51:00 -
[821] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Which forums that suffer? I don't see one with a trolling problem.
You're posting in one of them. If I had my way F&I would be first on the list to ban NPC corp players from. They would only be able to post to stickied feedback threads.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357185&find=unread
There's a good example of why. That kind of thing happens far too often on this board.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1234
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:58:00 -
[822] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Which forums that suffer? I don't see one with a trolling problem.
You're posting in one of them. If I had my way F&I would be first on the list to ban NPC corp players from. They would only be able to post to stickied feedback threads. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357185&find=unreadThere's a good example of why. That kind of thing happens far too often on this board. Counterpoint here. Being in a player corp is no magic cure all to poorly conceived ideas and the equally trollish responses to them.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7701
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:06:00 -
[823] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Being in a player corp is no magic cure all to poorly conceived ideas and the equally trollish responses to them.
No one said it was. But it's a higher barrier to entry than at present.
And that worked for CAOD. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:12:00 -
[824] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Which forums that suffer? I don't see one with a trolling problem.
You're posting in one of them. If I had my way F&I would be first on the list to ban NPC corp players from. They would only be able to post to stickied feedback threads. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357185&find=unreadThere's a good example of why. That kind of thing happens far too often on this board. Once every couple weeks someone reopens a closed thread on purpose is "far too often"? Ruffles you that much? You realize this is hardly evidence of any epidemic. Also that's literally one guy who could easily just be banned if CCP just felt like expanding ISD powers. He'll probably get banned now, anyway. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1234
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:13:00 -
[825] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Being in a player corp is no magic cure all to poorly conceived ideas and the equally trollish responses to them.
No one said it was. But it's a higher barrier to entry than at present. And that worked for CAOD. A higher barrier to entry is meaningless when that barrier can't be correlated to quality posting. That's just pointless obstruction.
Also CAOD is a gossip rag. If that is what you want of the rest of the forums that's a definite -1. |
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:14:00 -
[826] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And your quote is entirely not applicable, as NPC corp trolls are basically analogous to actual criminals. [.
You are not saying stop the criminal trolls from posting, you are saying everyone in NPC corps are to be removed. Then will the next group be everyone in player corps of less than 50 people? And then anyone not in a null-sec Corp? And then anyone not in the 2 major nul-sec alliances to be banned from the forums?
Or will it be, first banned NPC Corp players from the forums, then ban them from local chat? And then ban them from selling on the market and contracts?
Once you have declared the NPC corps as criminal trolls, what is the next item you want to remove? "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |
Dally Lama
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:16:00 -
[827] - Quote
This idea won't force people to post with their mains.
It will make it so people waste a slot creating a permanent forum alt. or It will make it so people who otherwise would have posted cease posting
Secondly it's not really fair to high sec players, due to war mechanics. I have thought of hiring mercs to wardec the corps of a few posters here, but through research have found those corps are mainly active in nullsec/WH space. As such it would be mostly a waste of my ISK to do so. WH corp members cannot be tracked with locators, and null players are 15+ jumps into protected blue zones making them extremely safe from retaliation.
High-sec players are afforded no such luck. Yes, this is a function of them being risk-averse and choosing high-sec, but that is irrelevant as it applies to the forum. This idea creates a situation where posting as a high sec player - carebear especially - is much riskier than posting as non-high sec player or as a non-carebear. Considering the purpose of the forums is to discuss ideas and topics about the game, we can see why this idea is in fact awful, as it adds an element of risk to something that should hold none.
New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders |
GodsWork
Realm of God Triple Penetration Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:18:00 -
[828] - Quote
This is called dictatorship... Only the proud few have something to say...... No freedom of speech my friend. You dont have to agree with a troll but you do have to scroll by their post.... |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7701
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:26:00 -
[829] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote: You are not saying stop the criminal trolls from posting, you are saying everyone in NPC corps are to be removed.
Yep.
Quote: Then will the next group be everyone in player corps of less than 50 people? And then anyone not in a null-sec Corp? And then anyone not in the 2 major nul-sec alliances to be banned from the forums?
Grr, goons appears to be the only real reply that most of you can muster. It's a sharp example of how banning most of your posting abilities would improve discourse on the forums by removing that particular piece of myopia. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1234
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:32:00 -
[830] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:You are not saying stop the criminal trolls from posting, you are saying everyone in NPC corps are to be removed. Yep. Quote:Then will the next group be everyone in player corps of less than 50 people? And then anyone not in a null-sec Corp? And then anyone not in the 2 major nul-sec alliances to be banned from the forums? Grr, goons appears to be the only real reply that most of you can muster. It's a sharp example of how banning most of your posting abilities would improve discourse on the forums by removing that particular piece of myopia. Leaving aside the open admission that this is targeted exclusion rather than for the health of the forums it is somewhat hard to ignore that one social extreme suggesting the opposite extreme should be effectively silenced.
I personally chose to believe the OP genuine in his statement of intent, though ultimately incorrect that his methodology moves the community in a positive direction, but I can fully see why others wouldn't share the faith in his good will. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
180
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:40:00 -
[831] - Quote
Kaarous, we saw eye to eye on one of the worst threads I've ever seen in F&I - these proposals wouldn't have stopped the main protagonist(s) there.
Is it really worth trading all the good posters living in npc/low headcount homes? All in the name of a phyrric victory against trolls? When demonstrable value in NPC posters has been seen and proven; when all this needs is empowered moderation?
The irony is I'm not even that liberal, but the losses (admittedly for me) outweigh gains. I can ignore a douchbag post - I'm less easily afford the loss of the likes of stoicfaux, chribba to name a couple. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7703
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:47:00 -
[832] - Quote
Dally Lama wrote:This idea won't force people to post with their mains.
It will make it so people waste a slot creating a permanent forum alt. or It will make it so people who otherwise would have posted cease posting
Either result is fine. Like I said, even the small barrier to entry provided by CAOD has worked wonders. I believe that is an example that bears further development.
Quote: Secondly it's not really fair to high sec players, due to war mechanics.
That's fine too, and if I interpret the OP correctly that's part of the intent. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7703
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 22:53:00 -
[833] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kaarous, we saw eye to eye on one of the worst threads I've ever seen in F&I - these proposals wouldn't have stopped the main protagonist(s) there.
Is it really worth trading all the good posters living in npc/low headcount homes? All in the name of a phyrric victory against trolls? When demonstrable value in NPC posters has been seen and proven; when all this needs is empowered moderation?
The irony is I'm not even that liberal, but the losses (admittedly for me) outweigh gains. I can ignore a douchbag post - I'm less easily afford the loss of the likes of stoicfaux, chribba to name a couple.
As far as "empowered moderation" goes, I would argue against it. The ISDs are players. I do not want a player, even a volunteer, to have any actionable power against another player.
If people think this idea is "tyranny" or "dictatorship" or whatever, just wait until we open that particular box.
And we all know that CCP, having just fired about a third of their staff, does not have the numbers to actually police the forums themselves. The OP's proposal is just applying one of the few remaining principles we can use to combat the problem.
But in regards to the good posting NPC corp players (yourself among them, and the others you mentioned), if you really want your voices heard, and want to discuss topics, the barrier for entry is really freaking low. It does not stop, nor is it intended to stop people who legitimately want to get their message out.
But as CAOD has demonstrated, even that small barrier to entry is sufficient to deter the kind of people who shouldn't be posting in the first place. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1235
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:11:00 -
[834] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:As far as "empowered moderation" goes, I would argue against it. The ISDs are players. I do not want a player, even a volunteer, to have any actionable power against another player.
If people think this idea is "tyranny" or "dictatorship" or whatever, just wait until we open that particular box.
And we all know that CCP, having just fired about a third of their staff, does not have the numbers to actually police the forums themselves. The OP's proposal is just applying one of the few remaining principles we can use to combat the problem.
But in regards to the good posting NPC corp players (yourself among them, and the others you mentioned), if you really want your voices heard, and want to discuss topics, the barrier for entry is really freaking low. It does not stop, nor is it intended to stop people who legitimately want to get their message out.
But as CAOD has demonstrated, even that small barrier to entry is sufficient to deter the kind of people who shouldn't be posting in the first place. Empowered moderation, regardless of employee or volunteer, is the only lasting solution to the issue of trolling. If CCP can't afford it internally and the volunteer mods can't be trusted to do it then we're just bandaging a self inflicted wound with the suggested.
Also the problem with the solution of a perceivably low barrier is that it is ineffective against those characters that only exist to post but highly effective to playing characters that have chosen to live in NPC or low player count corps. Essentially "Trolly McTroll" just needs 1 extra step to post but "legit NPC player" needs to either compromise play to post or start "Trolly McTroll2" and actually lose any sense of accountability or reputation they may have to resume posting posting. |
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 00:33:00 -
[835] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
And here is a quote for my rebuttal.
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionists.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me." - Martin Niem+Śller
First they came for the NPC Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in the NPC Corps. Then they came for the 10 person Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in a 10 person Corps. Then they came for the Non-Sov Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in a Non-Sov Corps. Then they came for me -- And Goons and PL laughed. "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 03:24:00 -
[836] - Quote
It's not big enough of a problem to warrant this particular change, considering there are aplenty non-trolling NPC posters, mods do need to step up however, especially in general discussion, for both NPC and player corporations, too soft. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1389
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 12:37:00 -
[837] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:
And here is a quote for my rebuttal.
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionists.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me." - Martin Niem+Śller
First they came for the NPC Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in the NPC Corps. Then they came for the 10 person Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in a 10 person Corps. Then they came for the Non-Sov Corps, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not in a Non-Sov Corps. Then they came for me -- And Goons and PL laughed.
This kind of hysteria is really constructive.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2578
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 23:11:00 -
[838] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Empowered moderation, regardless of employee or volunteer, is the only lasting solution to the issue of trolling. If CCP can't afford it internally and the volunteer mods can't be trusted to do it then we're just bandaging a self inflicted wound with the suggested.
Also the problem with the solution of a perceivably low barrier is that it is ineffective against those characters that only exist to post but highly effective to playing characters that have chosen to live in NPC or low player count corps. Essentially "Trolly McTroll" just needs 1 extra step to post but "legit NPC player" needs to either compromise play to post or start "Trolly McTroll2" and actually lose any sense of accountability or reputation they may have to resume posting posting.
I am happy my thread survived my absence.
Empowered moderation isn't the silver bullet for the problem however as humans are just as easily fooled as machines. It takes the two working in concert to handle the problem. Small things like letting ISD's hand out 24 hour gags would, in combination with my suggestion, do wonders to improve forum quality. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
Dhaq
Anonymous Posters
20
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 01:59:00 -
[839] - Quote
People keep talking about improving the forum quality, but as one other person already noted these forums are one the better ones there is. It is a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. The restrictions on the CAOD forums makes since because it's a forum about.. Corps, Alliances, and Organizations. This idea is just silly though. The only people this will affect will be new players that don't meet the criteria and do not know any better.
If it goes into effect, all someone has to do is create an Anonymous Posters corp. Then hop over to the recruitment forum and say, "Hey guys here is a safe place to put your posting refugee." And nothing has changed. Or are we not allowed to post there as well unless you have a certain number of members? That would be a hoot wouldn't it.
Maybe we should have different criteria for each sub-forum. Please expand upon your idea and take each sub-forum and list the size of the corporation a player would need to be in to post. At the moment you are just using broad strokes and generalities, which I think makes it a little hard for some of us to get behind.
I'm glad you are back though and I hope you had a wonderful vacation.
Edit: a word |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
166
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 03:00:00 -
[840] - Quote
I ran into a player a month ago that had been in their initial NPC corp for five years.
I'm going to guess someone is going to point out that the person that stayed in their origihal NPC corp five years is a fringe case and I agree. Let me ask you this if everyone in your neighborhood was guilty of murder except you and the authorities knew this but not who was innocent would you be okay with them just putting you all in prison for life because it was an easy solution?
If so then I'm guessing you're okay with this stupid idea; otherwise, like me you think THIS IDEA is the sort of garbage that needs to be kept off the forums not people that have just decided that NPC gameplay is their chosen gaming style. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
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