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Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
4
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Posted - 2015.02.26 12:09:56 -
[1] - Quote
Hello,
I want to suggest to flag Pilots, that enter FW Complexes without taking part in Faction Warfare, as criminals.
FW Complexes are sectors of military operations as such "civilians" have no reason to be there. In most cases those "Civilians" will go on and attack the "military personal" on duty. In order to stay alive it is often necessary to open fire first, which will not only flag the Pilot carrying out his duty as criminal but also lower his security rating.
This does not make sense in any way.
Best Regards
Flash Thomson
PS: I was not sure if this should be posted here or on Faction Warfare.
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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Leto Thule
Everywhere and Terrible
2117
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Posted - 2015.02.26 12:47:04 -
[2] - Quote
Flash Thomson wrote:Hello,
I want to suggest to flag Pilots, that enter FW Complexes without taking part in Faction Warfare, as criminals.
FW Complexes are sectors of military operations as such "civilians" have no reason to be there. In most cases those "Civilians" will go on and attack the "military personal" on duty. In order to stay alive it is often necessary to open fire first, which will not only flag the Pilot carrying out his duty as criminal but also lower his security rating.
This does not make sense in any way.
Best Regards
Flash Thomson
PS: I was not sure if this should be posted here or on Faction Warfare.
It shouldn't be posted anywhere because it is a bad idea. Even going with your example, civilians exsist in war zones and areas of conflict. Military members are not allowed to simply open fire without provocation.
Try and remember that FW plexes are there to provide PVP zones... Not to line your pockets with LP.
Big Fat Forum Meanie and Thanatos Scammer
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2797
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:15:58 -
[3] - Quote
Hello,
I want to suggest an idea also. When players start up the game, a quick survey is presented to them, with just one question: do you prefer to pvp other players? If answered yes, the player should be permanently flagged as a criminal, in order to discourage this undesirable behavior. They would be able to retake the survey in one year. I think this would really help with EVE's griefer problem.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:25:56 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:It shouldn't be posted anywhere because it is a bad idea. Even going with your example, civilians exsist in war zones and areas of conflict. Military members are not allowed to simply open fire without provocation.
Try and remember that FW plexes are there to provide PVP zones... Not to line your pockets with LP.
Yes people live in Warzones, because the warzone moves to them. I don't think there are many examples of people actually moving to warzones if they don't intend to participate in one or the other way.
Please try to enter Area 51 or any other Base of military operation as a civilian, without permit and see what happens. There is 0 reasons for a civilian to enter a Faction Warfare Complex.
Think of it as "Do not enter! Deadly Force Autherized" Area.
I am all for PvP, that is why I participate in Faction Warfare. But loosing security standing for defending my self against someone that has obviously come to cause trouble? Why? So he can rejoice while I have to run missions to make up for the sec loss?
I think a armed civilian entering a Faction Warfare Complex is probable cause for a preemptive strike!
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
618
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:28:51 -
[5] - Quote
I missed being -8.9 Those were the days.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
315
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:57:49 -
[6] - Quote
Bwhahaha, a pitiful ISK farming servant of the NPC menace calling those who fight for capsuleers and capsuleers only civilians amuses me to no end.
No, your ISK making does not need to be made safer, and no, the empires of the puny mortals do not need to be that important or powerful.
It's all about the capsuleers and the empire militaries have no say in what we do and who we fight. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory.
1531
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Posted - 2015.02.26 14:12:48 -
[7] - Quote
What is this **** doing in C&P? Put in to Features and Ideas were in can die in peace.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
"Also, your boobs [:o] " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
"When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23457
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Posted - 2015.02.26 14:47:50 -
[8] - Quote
If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1169
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:10:17 -
[9] - Quote
......
*shakes fist at sky*
EZWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:40:47 -
[10] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum...
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2798
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:51:52 -
[11] - Quote
Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then?
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Tasnala Estidal
Viziam Amarr Empire
45
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:56:03 -
[12] - Quote
Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum...
Then set Mr. Safety to orange and press f1, sec status be damned. Sounds like to me you want to do what " filthy pirate scum" do, but don't want to man up to the price of your desires. All those fw points should buy you a set of tags easy. Shoot everyone, buy tags, profit.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
107
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Posted - 2015.02.26 16:55:48 -
[13] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month.
Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3915
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Posted - 2015.02.26 17:00:30 -
[14] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Paranoid Loyd
3962
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:02:32 -
[15] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month. Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem. I don't do any PVE for isk. Get off your high horse and go gank someone.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:04:05 -
[16] - Quote
Flash Thomson wrote:Hello,
I want to suggest to flag Pilots, that enter FW Complexes without taking part in Faction Warfare, as criminals.
FW Complexes are sectors of military operations as such "civilians" have no reason to be there. In most cases those "Civilians" will go on and attack the "military personal" on duty. In order to stay alive it is often necessary to open fire first, which will not only flag the Pilot carrying out his duty as criminal but also lower his security rating.
This does not make sense in any way.
Best Regards
Flash Thomson
PS: I was not sure if this should be posted here or on Faction Warfare.
Agreed. I should not have to give someone the first volley just because they have a highsec logistics alt. Pirates love farming kills in FW plexes; if you warp into one as a neutral 99% of the time you're looking for a fight. Should get a suspect timer upon taking gate. If you want to pick off FW players sack up and join FW.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:07:15 -
[17] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month. Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem. I don't do any PVE for isk. Get off your high horse and go gank someone.
You're still farming. You're just farming idiots instead of red crosses. I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable.
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Paranoid Loyd
3962
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:34:50 -
[18] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right?
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1602
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:38:58 -
[19] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:I missed being -8.9 Those were the days.
Yeah the days you gave me more suspect flag in a logi boat that I could ever ask for...
:D |
Lugh Crow-Slave
803
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 18:11:02 -
[20] - Quote
Either
A.) wait for them to fire on you or B.) man up and take the sec hit
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
107
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Posted - 2015.02.26 18:49:31 -
[21] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right?
This gets trotted out every time someone is defending their alt-dependent gameplay.
The reason people use alts is to fulfill a task so boring that no human player wants to do it full time.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
129
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Posted - 2015.02.26 19:02:54 -
[22] - Quote
-1 unsupported
no isk without risk, sandbox, etc. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7519
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 19:05:05 -
[23] - Quote
Tasnala Estidal wrote:Then set Mr. Safety to orange red and press f1, sec status be damned. Sounds like to me you want to do what " filthy pirate scum" do, but don't want to man up to the price of your desires. All those fw points should buy you a set of tags easy. Shoot everyone, buy tags, profit.
FIFY.
Back in my FW days, you shot everything and worked it out later. No fancy Tag4Sec... you had to spend HOURS in null-sec in Stealth Bombers with buddies... avoiding bubbles... scaring ratters... hiding from hotdropping response fleets... all to kill 1 NPC battleship per system.
Eventually you stopped caring. You learned how much NICER it was to just live in low-sec full-time. You gain experience... you become more bloodthirsty... you create an alt character on the same account and train him (by pausing your main character's skill queue) to haul things and run missions... you become efficient at making money in low-sec.
And soon you forget why you would ever want to go back to high-sec... aside from suicide ganking some poor sob because you decided they deserve it (you are not sure how, but you know that if you dig through his/her history you'll fine something).
"The Skillpoint System and You"
"How did you Veterans start?"
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Paranoid Loyd
3964
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Posted - 2015.02.26 19:21:58 -
[24] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right? This gets trotted out every time someone is defending their alt-dependent gameplay. The reason people use alts is to fulfill a task so boring that no human player wants to do it full time. I'm not defending my game play, everyone should play how they like. With that said, I have no need to defend it. If you choose to have one account that is fine but that in no way means you can't gank for profit.
The tactics involved in successfully ganking for profit are infinitely more engaging than orbiting a button for profit. But it does take patience and forethought.
Freighters are ganked for profit on a daily basis, very few if any of those groups are multiboxed anymore.
More on topic: If you want to orbit a button with the intention of getting fights why would you worry about a minuscule sec status hit that can be easily fixed with cheap sec status tags or a few minutes of ratting?
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us
111
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 19:32:08 -
[25] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote: Even going with your example, civilians exsist in war zones and areas of conflict. Military members are not allowed to simply open fire without provocation.
Most reporters and civilians in war zones... arent armed.
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Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
482
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 19:54:09 -
[26] - Quote
I have to say that as someone with a good backround in FW I support the spirit of the idea, I need to point out that this is moot with the advent of sec tags. Sure it costs isk, but y'all make enough already that it's not a problem to buy one every so often to help your standing. I never had a problem with shooting anything that wasn't blue that came in my plex, although that's probably just me being trigger-happy lol. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
183
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 03:20:01 -
[27] - Quote
Honestly, I also think maybe Neutral (as in npc corp) players should get a flag of some sort if they are intefereing with FW Zones.
A player corp should not however....so if one is a pirate group...militas should just dec them and be done with it.
Now as to an earlier comment.....FW is not about the capsuleers....read your lore study the Emergency Concord descision that allowed the Empires to field Capsuleer militias....its for the resources in lo-sec for the Empires and to keep capsuleers away from key places in highsec.....basically playgrounds for the sociopaths. |
Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
6
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Posted - 2015.02.27 10:55:09 -
[28] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Either
A.) wait for them to fire on you or B.) man up and take the sec hit
I generally go with option B although it has done me little good, I simply still suck at PvP =D (If you want a good laugh check out my killboard =) )
My point is, I am there fighting for the State and yes also for my personal profit and I am sure all off you guys make great profits from it, me not so much... I loose to many ships, trying to find the right one =D And you know what that's fine! I am having fun... But lets talk about carrying the cost of defending my self, apart from working to get a new ship and mods, I don't have the time and will to farm for something I personally consider should not happen in the first place.
But lets turn this around.
What are you afraid of Mr. Pirate? You come here to fight! You where going to take the Sec hit anyway, what do you care if you get tagged as Criminal when entering a plex?
Oh you might not get to fire the first volley? Who is the chicken now?
So I stand by it, you do not participate in FW? You get flagged as Criminal entering a plex! Easy as that! Fair fight good night!
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
955
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 11:01:12 -
[29] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month. Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem. I don't do any PVE for isk. Get off your high horse and go gank someone.
P v E for fun P v P just for the ISK Chuck Norris: my b!tch
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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takedoom
Swagateers
57
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:50:44 -
[30] - Quote
The whole point of FW was to get noobs to go to low sec.
http://spinthatdamnship.ytmnd.com/
I am not a thief. I am a treasure hunter.
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The Newface
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:54:16 -
[31] - Quote
Disagree with the OP
There is no need to make FW easier, low sec is dangerous places.
from a in game perspective, concord has nothing to do with FW per say. |
Ben Ishikela
17
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Posted - 2015.02.27 18:19:46 -
[32] - Quote
Maybe you should rename "criminal" with "suspect". Flagged: Also in Missions. Also upon entering any accelerationgate. Also in highsec for more contest there ... Then those ignorant posters here would see better.
BUT i want to point out some things: Sec status hit or not. It does not affect difficulty at all. Why do people still think that?! Its just the costs that increases. 1point of sec is worth around 50milion for someone that wants to have a "high sec"-status. But then there is this little trigger of "-5". When people do not have enough money to buy the sec back and then train an alt for support and then go on to multicharacter play, they can truly enjoy the game of "shoot everyone". Then they have manned up. Its funny how FW does this atm: Guiding new players on a path to become criminals and leave highsec. yay!
Now if players could join FW on the pirate faction side, if they have -5sec as requirement, there could be some incentive to go to Null through it. Which would be great!
So to conclude: Lore- and Justice- perceivedwise i would agree to put suspect flags on entering "neutrals". BUT the benefit it brings to the gameplay progression of new players is just toooooo big like it is right now!
Now maybe OP sees better.
PS.: i recently bought tag4sec for WH logistic as i thought it would help me fly expensive ships from market to my homesystem. but i could do it with the hauler alt much easier. I consider it lost money now.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
102
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:15:51 -
[33] - Quote
To be quite honest, they should really re-think the whole sec status and criminal flag system for lowsec. They did step a few things back but others they left full on.
Since it is a lower security status system, they security penalties should all be stepped down by the same margin. For example, shooting someone's ship that you have to right to shoot.
Hi-sec: You are flagged criminal, take a standings hit for the aggression, a secondary standings hit for ship destruction, and concord blows you up.
Low-sec (currently): You are flagged suspect (1 step down from criminal), take standings hit for the aggression, a secondary standings hit for ship destruction (same standings penalties as hi-sec)
Low-sec (how it should be): You are flagged suspect (1 step down from criminal), only take a security hit if you bow up their ship (but smaller than the hi-sec ship destruction hit)
That way it transitions nicely into null where you have no flags and no security penalties...
This would greatly reduce your anxiety to fire first. And with all things crimewatch, low sec stuff would just be a whole step down, so like repping someone in a limited engagement that would normally yield you as suspect, now won't... so no more penalizing the logi pilots on a roam anymore. If under the current system the pilots flying in a roam can avoid being flagged by not shooting first, there needs to be an option for logi pilots as well. This actual gradiation of security penalties and crimewatch states from hi to low to null would solve that issue. |
per
Terpene Conglomerate
43
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Posted - 2015.02.28 00:30:20 -
[34] - Quote
+1 to op
about easier isk/ lp if i want more lp i do fw missions not plexes about being carebear - nothing changes for me in lowsec with OP change.... pirates still can come on me in plex if they want, i still can be killed at gates etc .... |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
109
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 04:40:16 -
[35] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right? This gets trotted out every time someone is defending their alt-dependent gameplay. The reason people use alts is to fulfilll a task so boring that no human player wants to do it full time. I'm not defending my game play, everyone should play how they like. With that said, I have no need to defend it. If you choose to have one account that is fine but that in no way means you can't gank for profit. The tactics involved in successfully ganking for profit are infinitely more engaging than orbiting a button for profit. But it does take patience and forethought. Freighters are ganked for profit on a daily basis, very few if any of those groups are multiboxed anymore. More on topic: If you want to orbit a button with the intention of getting fights why would you worry about a minuscule sec status hit that can be easily fixed with cheap sec status tags or a few minutes of ratting?
Ganking for profit is not difficult once you understand how to get around the crimewatch mechanics. I could make decent ISK ganking untanked barges in 0.5 systems if I had another account to scoop loot. It just doesn't appeal to me. It seems very much like PvE as you can simply scan the target, figure out if you have the DPS to pop them before concordokken, f1 and scoop loot with alt. The margins are pretty good if you can use a t1 fit catalyst and the loot fairy isn't on her period.
If you make your money that way, fine. I'm just tired of seeing an elitist attitude towards people who "farm" at PvE so they can afford to risk things other than tech 1 frigates and destroyers against people who actually shoot back.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
87
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Posted - 2015.02.28 04:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
+1 OP
spending 70mil to drop my sec for shooting nub neutral pods because I DID shoot first, and last.
want to shoot a FW pilot inside a FW plex, join FW. If not, be flagged and prepared to lose your ship. Who, in their right mind, lets somebody pull to their optimal ranges, after they see your weapon system, and before they shoot you? Anyone that doesn't see the reason in that is being foolish.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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ACESsiggy
University of Caille
31
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Posted - 2015.02.28 09:06:37 -
[37] - Quote
I brought this up in chat once but was shut down... I like your thinking though=ƒÿë but hopefully =ƒö£=ƒö£=ƒö£
At least remove standing loss for FW pilots ((inside FW plexes)).
GÇ£The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.GÇ¥
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3432
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 09:24:21 -
[38] - Quote
Oh, it's this thread again. More easy-mode pirates. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
80
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 11:21:58 -
[39] - Quote
Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum...
if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity.
Just Add Water
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
88
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Posted - 2015.02.28 14:12:30 -
[40] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum... if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity.
That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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ACESsiggy
University of Caille
31
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Posted - 2015.02.28 14:22:27 -
[41] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum... if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity.
So is this a prerequisite joining faction warfare? Losing sec status for the glory of the empire? lol
GÇ£The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.GÇ¥
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Davey Talvanen
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
26
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Posted - 2015.02.28 15:22:48 -
[42] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: You're still farming. You're just farming idiots instead of red crosses. I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable.
This
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
80
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 18:02:49 -
[43] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum... if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity. That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect.
no, i was barred from entering the federation i hold dear is because i killed alot of innocent (read neutral) pilots entering my plex, that is logical.
what illogical is, preventing neutrals to enter a plex and make them a suspect.
just like irl, anybody (reporters, volunteers, etc) can go to a war zone. does this mean a soldier can just shoot at them without any repurcussions? if you don't want to take a sec hit then allow them to shoot at you 1st, make them a "true" suspect 1st before you engage them.
Just Add Water
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
962
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 18:45:56 -
[44] - Quote
Davey Talvanen wrote:Sibyyl wrote: You're still farming. You're just farming idiots instead of red crosses. I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable.
This
You got your quote mechanics wrong there, buddy. Sibyyl would never say anything so brain dead. The actual clown you should be attributing that quote to is Demerius Xenocratus. It's on page 1, post 17. Here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5529167#post5529167
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
16
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:16:37 -
[45] - Quote
Ben Ishikela wrote:Maybe you should rename "criminal" with "suspect". Flagged: Also in Missions. Also upon entering any accelerationgate. Also in highsec for more contest there ... Then those ignorant posters here would see better. BUT i want to point out some things: Sec status hit or not. It does not affect difficulty at all. Why do people still think that?! Its just the costs that increases. 1point of sec is worth around 50milion for someone that wants to have a "high sec"-status. But then there is this little trigger of "-5". When people do not have enough money to buy the sec back and then train an alt for support and then go on to multicharacter play, they can truly enjoy the game of "shoot everyone". Then they have manned up. Its funny how FW does this atm: Guiding new players on a path to become criminals and leave highsec. yay! Now if players could join FW on the pirate faction side, if they have -5sec as requirement, there could be some incentive to go to Null through it. Which would be great! So to conclude: Lore- and Justice- perceivedwise i would agree to put suspect flags on entering "neutrals". BUT the benefit it brings to the gameplay progression of new players is just toooooo big like it is right now! Now maybe OP sees better. PS.: i recently bought tag4sec for WH logistic as i thought it would help me fly expensive ships from market to my homesystem. but i could do it with the hauler alt much easier. I consider it lost money now.
I actually do mean suspect! (<-- Noob)
So I edited the subject
About this whole civilian thing....
This is Eve! Who ever entered a plex without intending to fight?
It is simple Concord could proclaim Plexes no go zones for not faction war pilots and as such flag everyone entering a plex not taking part in faction warfare as suspect...
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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Naomi Anthar
386
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:34:29 -
[46] - Quote
God only knows why this is not implemented already.
There is basically no single LEGIT( i mean serious one) argument against it, yet hundreds that support it.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1791
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:42:16 -
[47] - Quote
I wouldn't have a problem being set suspect on entering a FW plex. Neutrals only ever enter to fight.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
239
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:42:43 -
[48] - Quote
There are no bounty rats in a plex, there are no asteroids in a plex, there is no reason for a non-pvper to be in a plex, so there is no reason for there not to be a suspect tag added to them while they're in there.
On the other side, if a pirate comes into a plex and the person inside cares about their sec status, the pirate is either forcing the other player to take a sec status hit in an obviously hostile environment for that player, or for the player in the plex to let the pirate get to whatever optimal they want.
There is NO good reason for not gaining a suspect flag for entering a plex. |
Iain Cariaba
1090
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:58:31 -
[49] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:God only knows why this is not implemented already.
There is basically no single LEGIT( i mean serious one) argument against it, yet hundreds that support it.
Yes, hundreds out of the tens of thousands of players. Face it, you're not even 1%.
Oh, you want one legit reason for flying into a site if you're not faction warfare? Try using them as an escape route to break off pursuit. I've dived into novice and small sites before to shake pursuit by ships too large to use the gate. Using your logic, I should have gotten a timer that allows everyone to shoot me when I got to highsec because I was trying to hide instead of fight.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:17:52 -
[50] - Quote
I don't know how it works in your country, but over here our soldiers routinely have to wait for a green light from command before engaging ANYTHING unless it's already shooting at them, more or less. If you want to be a lawless killer living on the fringes of society, that's what standard low sec gaming is for. If you want to be a soldier, you gotta work with their rules, man. That means not just senselessly killing anyone who ain't friendly as soon as they show their face. Be on guard. Be ready. Strike when they become hostile. To change it would be to change it for the sake of game mechanics and ease, and nothing else. It would be the exact opposite of realistic. You're thinking of this from the perspective of yourself as a player and not from the one of those who are living in this world. |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1003
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:30:28 -
[51] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:I want to suggest to flag Pilots, that enter FW Complexes without taking part in Faction Warfare, as criminals. It shouldn't be posted anywhere because it is a bad idea. Even going with your example, civilians exsist in war zones and areas of conflict. Military members are not allowed to simply open fire without provocation.. Civilians don't usually drive tanks and fire on the military.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Mag's
the united
19102
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:33:09 -
[52] - Quote
Flash Thomson wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Either
A.) wait for them to fire on you or B.) man up and take the sec hit I generally go with option B although it has done me little good, I simply still suck at PvP =D (If you want a good laugh check out my killboard =) ) My point is, I am there fighting for the State and yes also for my personal profit and I am sure all off you guys make great profits from it, me not so much... I loose to many ships, trying to find the right one =D And you know what that's fine! I am having fun... But lets talk about carrying the cost of defending my self, apart from working to get a new ship and mods, I don't have the time and will to farm for something I personally consider should not happen in the first place. But lets turn this around.What are you afraid of Mr. Pirate? You come here to fight! You where going to take the Sec hit anyway, what do you care if you get tagged as Criminal when entering a plex? Oh you might not get to fire the first volley? Who is the chicken now? So I stand by it, you do not participate in FW? You get flagged as Criminal entering a plex! Easy as that! Fair fight good night! You're the one asking for change here, which means you want the consequences for shooting a neutral gone. So your attempt at moving the fear aspect is quite frankly, ludicrous. I am a pirate. I am -10, which means I'm open season all the time. You seem to be discussing players with a security standing above -5. They are not pirates, they are neutral players to you as far as the game is concerned.
So just like in warzones, there are consequences for shooting neutral (civilians). There are rules of engagement, just like in Eve. So either pay the consequences, or don't shoot first. It being a FW plex, doesn't remove you from the rules or make you a special case.
Naomi Anthar wrote:God only knows why this is not implemented already.
There is basically no single LEGIT( i mean serious one) argument against it, yet hundreds that support it.
There has not been ONE legit, or logical reason for this change. 'I want' and 'I wish to avoid the consequences', are neither. It's FW, not FNW.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:40:09 -
[53] - Quote
Ugh, even if they see a tank rolling near by them. They DO NOT fire until they are allowed to.
Even if they see it firing, they DO NOT fire until they are allowed to.
Only if it engages them are they allowed to return fire, to my knowledge. Otherwise, they wait for the order.
Unless you know 100 percent that it's the enemy, you do not fire on that target.
You might think it's silly, but that is how war works.
I would be glad to grab some raw combat footage showing how this works, if you like. |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
154
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:40:31 -
[54] - Quote
Suspect timer maybe, criminal timer is a no no.
Iain Cariaba wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:God only knows why this is not implemented already.
There is basically no single LEGIT( i mean serious one) argument against it, yet hundreds that support it.
Yes, hundreds out of the tens of thousands of players. Face it, you're not even 1%. Oh, you want one legit reason for flying into a site if you're not faction warfare? Try using them as an escape route to break off pursuit. I've dived into novice and small sites before to shake pursuit by ships too large to use the gate. Using your logic, I should have gotten a timer that allows everyone to shoot me when I got to highsec because I was trying to hide instead of fight. Can you explain your tactic more, you were breaking off pursuit by jumping in small in what from what? |
Mag's
the united
19102
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:48:40 -
[55] - Quote
I've said this before in these threads. If you want this done in a way that is more balanced and a makes for a better game in low sec, then do the following:
Remove sec hits from all ship kills in low sec and have sec hits on pods only.
It might open things up more there.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
154
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:55:30 -
[56] - Quote
Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? |
Mag's
the united
19102
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:57:51 -
[57] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:09:16 -
[58] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules. Well true, but what about new'ish pirates wannabes? Also gate guns become kind of absolutely useless. |
Mag's
the united
19103
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:13:29 -
[59] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules. Well true, but what about new'ish pirates wannabes? Also gate guns become kind of absolutely useless. If you mean what about newish pirates getting to -10, then pod kills are still available. (Or high sec ship/pod kills)
Gate guns could just shoot on pod kills, but I don't care either way with those tbh. Simple is generally best though.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:28:25 -
[60] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules. Well true, but what about new'ish pirates wannabes? Also gate guns become kind of absolutely useless. If you mean what about newish pirates getting to -10, then pod kills are still available. (Or high sec ship/pod kills) Gate guns could just shoot on pod kills, but I don't care either way with those tbh. Simple is generally best though.
Great point indeed, streamlining things is the best solution than just making rules about rules on top of one another. |
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
91
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Posted - 2015.03.01 03:37:14 -
[61] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules. Well true, but what about new'ish pirates wannabes? Also gate guns become kind of absolutely useless.
Gate gun mechanics could remain the same, just remove the sec hit on aggression in lowsec and i'll be alright with that. Keep the pod sec hit is okay too. I usually do my best to shoot pods because the initial sec hit.
As far as receiving command green light for shooting suspicious civilians... I could show you raw footage too that will give good reason to both sides. @Bright Noa, Why do you draw examples from RL combat scenarios? I thinhk you are being naive if you think war is manners, protocol, and command. I know a few vets that would envy the luxury of delays or responsive aggression.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23530
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 04:26:56 -
[62] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month. Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem.
Look. You are in lowsec. The reason why you want to open fire on the other person is because you think the other person doesn't care about their sec status and will preemptively open fire you anyway.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Both of you risk a sec status hit by aggressing first. Joining Factional Warfare is not some kind of safe haven for getting shot in lowsec.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
230
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Posted - 2015.03.01 05:22:48 -
[63] - Quote
On the surface, this almost sounds reasonable. But then you restrict it to non-FW people.
Frankly, if CONCORD cares about flagging anyone, then they should simply flag EVERYONE who enters it as suspect, FW pilots included.
Otherwise, the current system, as far as not flagging people, is perfectly fine.
edit to add: or.. hehe... CONCORD flags everyone and anyone who enters Low Sec as suspect. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 06:24:09 -
[64] - Quote
Petrified wrote:On the surface, this almost sounds reasonable. But then you restrict it to non-FW people. Frankly, if CONCORD cares about flagging anyone, then they should simply flag EVERYONE who enters it as suspect, FW pilots included. Otherwise, the current system, as far as not flagging people, is perfectly fine. edit to add: or.. hehe... CONCORD flags everyone and anyone who enters Low Sec as suspect. And the flag does not go away until 15 minutes after you have left Low Sec.
This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.
Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 06:53:59 -
[65] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:
This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.
Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
oreb, you were part of AIDER before (and my senior) so i have high regards for you. the thing is, most of the time we try to compare things to rl is because it's the logical explanation.
with this suggestion, neutral venturing to plexes will be lessen, which means lesser targets for me. now, i joined FW to pewpew and NOT to do "things" in high sec.
so imho, more targets > high sec status. i would gladly sacrifice my sec. status for more targets.
now, my issue is gate/station gun aggro in aggressing neutrals, that is what needs to be changed.
Just Add Water
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:08:59 -
[66] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then?
That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight.
signature
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:09:44 -
[67] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right? This gets trotted out every time someone is defending their alt-dependent gameplay. The reason people use alts is to fulfill a task so boring that no human player wants to do it full time.
macro-botter detected.
signature
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:13:09 -
[68] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:..More on topic: If you want to orbit a button with the intention of getting fights why would you worry about a minuscule sec status hit that can be easily fixed with cheap sec status tags or a few minutes of ratting?
Paranoid, dear, you know you get paid for collecting those tags in the very space you they are active in.
Revelation for faction warfare people of the day:
Those tags are hidden in cargohold of ships you get paid to shoot down but they hide in a place called asteroid belt.
signature
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 12:37:10 -
[69] - Quote
Just make fighting inside plexes sec hit free, neither the attacker nor the defender gets a sec hit (except for criminal acts, like killing pods). The mechanic exists today with attacking other player's properties.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
985
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 12:39:19 -
[70] - Quote
Just make FW plexes little pockets of nullsec. CONCORD shouldn't be interested if no faction can claim sovereignty |
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
107
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Posted - 2015.03.01 14:04:50 -
[71] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits?
The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all. |
Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:44:10 -
[72] - Quote
Quote:Just make fighting inside plexes sec hit free, neither the attacker nor the defender gets a sec hit (except for criminal acts, like killing pods). The mechanic exists today with attacking other player's properties.
This is raw combat footage of Americans engaging Extremist forces. Note, they can see these guys have a rocket launcher. You know what they use to shoot down our choppers? Rocket launchers. If they're spotted before engaging, and fired upon, their lives could end. But they still wait for the green light from command before firing at them.
WARNING: People die in this video. Don't watch if you aren't prepared for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl8FSupa-g
This is how real war works. If you want to play soldier, that's fine. But just because you don't like how war works, don't muck it up for people who enjoy playing war.
At around the 6:00 mark, they find an anti-air truck, which appears to be engaging friendly air craft. Someone a little earlier mentions that they engaged a truck that that had actually shot at them. The guys watching this truck wait until they have the green light before they shoot it, even though they can see it firing at someone, presumably allies.
It's an excellent example of why what you want is a bad idea. What if that person isn't hostile? What if they'e actually an ally? Maybe they're just exploring, or lost, or running from a pirate. It's likely they're a pirate themselves, but at that point, let them take the security status hit, and be prepared to return fire.
In real life, when armies begin indiscriminately attacking anything they don't immediately recognize as friendly, the world responds very negatively. Remember, you're there as a representative of a nation, not just as yourself. |
Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:46:05 -
[73] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits? The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all.
I dunno, dude, when I'm in down town St.Louis or in the wrong part of Chicago, do the cops punish me less severely if I attack someone because it wasn't a safer part of town? |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4095
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 16:22:44 -
[74] - Quote
Would the suspect timer only begin countdown once you left a FW complex then?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23574
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 16:33:32 -
[75] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
Everyone else who aggresses somebody in lowsec takes the same sec status hit that FW people do. OP is suggesting preferential sec status hit formula since he happens to be in FW. "Obviously hostile intent" isn't so obvious since you are complaining about taking a sec status hit for aggressing in the first place.
Did you have a suggestion for sec status calculations for all of lowsec in general instead of FW? People would be more receptive to that. But then again, it might make it even more likely that people will be piling into your plexes trying to shoot you.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23574
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 16:35:02 -
[76] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits?
The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all.
Not a bad idea, this one.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
109
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 16:43:50 -
[77] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits? The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all. I dunno, dude, when I'm in down town St.Louis or in the wrong part of Chicago, do the cops punish me less severely if I attack someone because it wasn't a safer part of town? No, police should still punish you to the full extent, because they are there... or are you saying their are zones publicly declared by the police/govt that they don't enter or work in and therefore won't take any action against anything that was done there?
If there were actual place where police were not allowed to go or arrest people or pursue justice then yeah, you would have a point. But there isn't as pertains to this discussion. The police aren't in low-sec, but they are in chicago and st louis.
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Ben Ishikela
19
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:44:18 -
[78] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote:(...)(video)(...) interesting. I watched it and i still dont want EVE to reflect the real world or in any way come close to it just to be closer to it. Also there is some problem with the comparison: amongst other things there is: there are no reporters or civilians inside a plex inside this game. if there would be, they would be cloaked. impossible in real life atm. ....
I still go with that until another better fix is implemented and realised into the game, there should be suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate. => incursion more fun & lvl4 mission more fun & highsec less safe => more content and population in other areas of space. That is a uniform rule.
But on the long run i would not like it, as it does not push people out of highsec vicinity. If there would be a market mechanic involved in the availability of highsec/any missions and therefor everyone has to speedrun them against each other, that would be nicer. competition spreads population, right? (then we can rate truesec on the number of security missions/anomalies run there for more flexible and interesting map) and then id like to scale sec hits with truesec. (1.0 same as now. 0.8 only 80% and 0.3 only 30% and so on.) but until then: suspect as quickfix.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:56:52 -
[79] - Quote
Ben Ishikela wrote:Bright Noa wrote:(...)(video)(...) interesting. I watched it and i still dont want EVE to reflect the real world or in any way come close to it just to be closer to it. Also there is some problem with the comparison: amongst other things there is: there are no reporters or civilians inside a plex inside this game. if there would be, they would be cloaked. impossible in real life atm. .... I still go with that until another better fix is implemented and realised into the game, there should be suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate. => incursion more fun & lvl4 mission more fun & highsec less safe => more content and population in other areas of space. That is a uniform rule. But on the long run i would not like it, as it does not push people out of highsec vicinity. If there would be a market mechanic involved in the availability of highsec/any missions and therefor everyone has to speedrun them against each other, that would be nicer. competition spreads population, right? (then we can rate truesec on the number of security missions/anomalies run there for more flexible and interesting map) and then id like to scale sec hits with truesec. (1.0 same as now. 0.8 only 80% and 0.3 only 30% and so on.) but until then: suspect as quickfix.
In the video provided, they were worried that they'd be shooting allies. There, friendly fighters working on a budget look like the same terrorists they're fighting. In a plex, one capsuleer looks the same as the other. You don't know if they're friendly or not.
If you don't want a game about warfare and ships to reflect how warfare and ships are, go play a game that isn't about warfare and ships, is my general response. People who LIKE ships have really no where to go for ship gaming. There's Navy Field, STO, vaguely star wars, and EVE. TOR doesn't allow cap ships. Navy Field is dated. STO is arcadey and doesn't reflect realistic combat at all. I know it's a sci-fi and an MMO but what you're asking is for the game theme to be thrown out the window for your convenience. |
Ben Ishikela
20
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 05:02:41 -
[80] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote: In the video provided, they were worried that they'd be shooting allies. There, friendly fighters working on a budget look like the same terrorists they're fighting. In a plex, one capsuleer looks the same as the other. You don't know if they're friendly or not.
In EVE however its simple: Unfuck your overview . and set those standings. also better shoot if unsure, its no permadeath and noone is watching, that can fire me. with advanced aliance diplomacy it might get interesting, but we are talking about basic FW here, right?
Bright Noa wrote:If you don't want a game about warfare and ships to reflect how warfare and ships are....... doesnt apply. isnt a consequence of my last statement. You push this discussion somewhat offtopic. offtopic = tell someone to not play if he not like it. i want to improve what is good and has potential to be even greater. my credo: gameplay and fun is more important then realism. (i.e. physix of spaceflight in eve) => what mechanic gets us the most out of it? i believe its getting more players to come to lowsec and be shootable. by suspect flags or by making highsec bad etc. But realy: let players take the sec hit! let them grow up!. Suspect flag in plexes will be a bad change in the long future and only good immediatly, although id like it. especialy if there would be lesser incentive to leave highsec forever.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Ben Ishikela
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 05:06:15 -
[81] - Quote
+1 for suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
119
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 13:39:05 -
[82] - Quote
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... |
Iain Cariaba
1107
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 16:16:13 -
[83] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
180
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 16:42:48 -
[84] - Quote
I've not read this thread.
It has been proposed before (once by me). At the end of the discussion I agreed suspect flagging is not reasonable.
What is reasonable is no pilot receives a suspect flag or a sec status penalty when aggressing first inside a plex.
They should just be considered no mans land and therefore "enter at your own risk". Then militia pilots are not penalised for defending themselves whilst doing there job.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:19:05 -
[85] - Quote
I don't know if we're going to be able to agree if you think stuff which makes no sense from any perspective outside of making it much easier to avoid penalties, and strongly destroys realism and immersion in to the environment, is the preferable choice.
Your actions have consequences. You're playing an aspect of the game meant to allow people to participate in the lore wars. There's other ways to go play war if you don't like how war works and don't want to play realistically then go somewhere else. Join an alliance and fight their wars for them by their rules. EVE's a sandbox, they keep saying. You're trying to force conformity here on a very specific part of EVE, because how this stuff actually works doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to others who might like this system and find it makes sense. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:26:22 -
[86] - Quote
conscientious objectors to factional warfare and opportunist violent protesters have sandbox rights too you know.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
120
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 20:28:17 -
[87] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are. Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right?
Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 20:32:05 -
[88] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are. Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right? Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon. They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
120
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:43:35 -
[89] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back. I'm confused... why would you have to buy someone's sec status back up in order for FW NPC's to give a warning to any 'civilians' that entered their restricted site? Its a military facility where civilians have no purpose to be there. I understand that the navy is honorable and can't just go blasting away at civilians, but it is a military site so have the NPCs give them a warning that they should leave and if they don't then the NPCs start re-securing their military installation.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 00:08:04 -
[90] - Quote
Oh sorry, wasn't clear. Was sayin players should blow up civilians and take the sec hit.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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Iain Cariaba
1122
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 07:23:31 -
[91] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:Oh sorry, wasn't clear. Was sayin players should blow up civilians and take the sec hit. This, it's not like it's even a big sec hit. It's taken me quite a few days of shooting you facwar people to drop my sec status the 1.6 it's dropped since I started.
Besides, most of you facwar people are like this guy. So no real danger of you losing any sec status there.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
473
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:07:08 -
[92] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum... if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity. That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect. no, i was barred from entering the federation i hold dear is because i killed alot of innocent (read neutral) pilots entering my plex, that is logical. what illogical is, preventing neutrals to enter a plex and make them a suspect. just like irl, anybody (reporters, volunteers, etc) can go to a war zone. does this mean a soldier can just shoot at them without any repurcussions? if you don't want to take a sec hit then allow them to shoot at you 1st, make them a "true" suspect 1st before you engage them. In a warzone is different from entering a battlefield or military base. For those areas there are checkpoints. For most militaries apparently it does not matter what your status is if you decide to blow through a checkpoint. Consider the acceleration gate a checkpoint. If you blow through it your pirate, saboteur, press, or civilian ship will be perceived as a threat. You should expect to be treated as such. Whether that involves the warping away of the militia guy inside or his deciding to shoot you first and ask questions later it should not result in a sec hit to the militia guy.
Similarly a suspect tag and timer is warranted in this game for this activity. It is not an unwarranted special treatment. The area is marked as a battlefield between two militias. There is a gate presented which one must decide to pass through. When you decide to enter it you are deciding to involve yourself in that battle one way or another.
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Mag's
the united
19120
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 16:16:19 -
[93] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex. You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
185
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 18:19:39 -
[94] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex. You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?
Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 20:54:30 -
[95] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Flash Thomson wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum... if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity. That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect. no, i was barred from entering the federation i hold dear is because i killed alot of innocent (read neutral) pilots entering my plex, that is logical. what illogical is, preventing neutrals to enter a plex and make them a suspect. just like irl, anybody (reporters, volunteers, etc) can go to a war zone. does this mean a soldier can just shoot at them without any repurcussions? if you don't want to take a sec hit then allow them to shoot at you 1st, make them a "true" suspect 1st before you engage them. This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.
TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.
I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.
And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
186
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 22:05:03 -
[96] - Quote
Terra Chrall wrote: This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.
TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.
I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.
And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates could warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway.
Gameplay & mechanics > everything else
The design needs to serve the mantra "what promotes more Player interaction (PVP)".
Some "neutral" low-sec players claim the suspect flag disadvantages them (and I agree). They should not have to carry a suspect flag after entering a plex that is suddenly empty (cost for no return).
By the same mantra opportunities for PVP are lost because the Militia pilot is obligated to take a sec hit or suspect flag. Either coz the Militia pilot will choose to flee (not soo likely with a combat pilot) or he/she won't be in a plex later as he fixes the sec status.
Arguing that they should use an alt is weak. Plenty of people are on one sub. Particularly casual players. Particularly parents. This game is 11 yrs old. Plenty of time for sproggs to appear.
Consider all play styles when throwing up "solutions".
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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JetStream Drenard
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
58
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 22:36:27 -
[97] - Quote
You squids are so pathetically risk averse it is truly sad. get over it. Time to move back to low sec, problem solved. |
Arla Sarain
337
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 23:07:30 -
[98] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:I've not read this thread.
It has been proposed before (once by me). At the end of the discussion I agreed suspect flagging is not reasonable.
What is reasonable is no pilot receives a suspect flag or a sec status penalty when aggressing first inside a plex.
They should just be considered no mans land and therefore "enter at your own risk". Then militia pilots are not penalised for defending themselves whilst doing there job. This is simpler and more elegant. |
Mag's
the united
19126
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:38:57 -
[99] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Mag's wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex. You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them? Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void. Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.
If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
99
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:57:55 -
[100] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:
This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.
Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
oreb, you were part of AIDER before (and my senior) so i have high regards for you. the thing is, most of the time we try to compare things to rl is because it's the logical explanation. with this suggestion, neutral venturing to plexes will be lessen, which means lesser targets for me. now, i joined FW to pewpew and NOT to do "things" in high sec. so imho, more targets > high sec status. i would gladly sacrifice my sec. status for more targets. now, my issue is gate/station gun aggro in aggressing neutrals, that is what needs to be changed.
NP, man. You owe me no respect. Your CEO is not my biggest fan and I had a disagreement with how leadership distributed a liberal gift of mine and claiming credit for it. Arguments about Teamspeak that seemed to be resolved now. Dumb stuff. Sorry to see Ash has left you guys.
It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to change gate gun mechanics. It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to rework how aggression is triggered. It woulc be much simpler to cause a flag than to adjust sec hits by system security level. It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to risk any of the above changes that could unbalance gate fighting/camping, or just simply causing more lag or work for the servers on a tree aggression system. And a flag changes nothing you wouldn't already get if you were prepared to fight a neutral anyway, and gives the person inside the benefit of being able to shoot first before range control plays a factor.
Not everyone has alts. Asking a new player that just joined to freeze his training for a few weeks for a hauler alt to haul to border systems is not reasonable. We all fight all over the place, but fights within a plex should be fair game. The objective has a specific purpose, making excuses by innocent and/or curious players is not an acceptable agrument for someone being in lowsec to begin with.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
188
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:27:01 -
[101] - Quote
Mag's wrote: Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.
If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?
Wrong
Mag's wrote:Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10. ...
Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever... ... ...
Pirates do not wear >minus 5 badges like they used to.
I am happy you don't like the proposal from the Op. It is not reasonable to give suspect flags upon entering a plex, to anyone.
It is also not reasonable that Militia pilots are albeit forced to take a sec status hit and suspect flag for defending a FW plex (and yes we are obligated to fire first).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:41:24 -
[102] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Terra Chrall wrote: This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.
TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.
I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.
And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates could warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway.
Gameplay & mechanics > everything else The design needs to serve the mantra "what promotes more Player interaction (PVP)". Some "neutral" low-sec players claim the suspect flag disadvantages them (and I agree). They should not have to carry a suspect flag after entering a plex that is suddenly empty (cost for no return). By the same mantra opportunities for PVP are lost because the Militia pilot is obligated to take a sec hit or suspect flag. Either coz the Militia pilot will choose to flee (not soo likely with a combat pilot) or he/she won't be in a plex later as he fixes the sec status. Arguing that they should use an alt is weak. Plenty of people are on one sub. Particularly casual players. Particularly parents. This game is 11 yrs old. Plenty of time for sproggs to appear. Consider all play styles when throwing up "solutions". Good points. I was arguing against a specific view that implied neutrals should have the advantage. But I was not specific in my details since duration of such a flag would be very important. In my mind this would be a very short flag, 30 seconds maybe. Long enough for the FW pilot to choose to engage or flee with no penalty for their choice.
The suggestion to make FW plexes FFO/Null rules would also work but I fear that would be a much harder solution programmaticly (i.e. dev time) to implement in a solar system with other rules in place than tying a flagging system to a gate. Unless it was also a flag system that cleared once you leave the plex.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
100
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 18:43:24 -
[103] - Quote
I don't understand the hesitation or fear of inheriting a Suspect flag. It is not long at all. If you lose the fight, it may very well take you its duration to reship. If you win the fight, you spend that time looting and looking for another target, while also being a valid target to others.
The suspect flag is not a big deal! I get one every time I fly almost. You guys act like going GCC was years ago. You can still dock. You can still gate travel. You can even go into highsec (scary!).
Please explain to me why suspect is such a hard penalty to deal with if you are attempting a fight with/as a neutral? I see only exaggeration.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Mag's
the united
19128
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 18:50:58 -
[104] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Mag's wrote: Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.
If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?
Wrong Mag's wrote:Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10. ... Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever... ... ... Pirates do not wear >minus 5 badges like they used to. I am happy you don't like the proposal from the Op. It is not reasonable to give suspect flags upon entering a plex, to anyone. It is also not reasonable that Militia pilots are albeit forced to take a sec status hit and suspect flag for defending a FW plex (and yes we are obligated to fire first). Nice selective highlighting there. Now please read the whole sentence/post and that's what I was replying to. Or you can admit you jumped the gun and picked a fight over nothing, or something you read incorrectly. TBH I'm not sure which at this point. It's all rather vague and you seem to be clutching at straws.
Or are you suggesting he was correct when he implied that pirates who pride themselves at being -10, have any affect on the sec status of those in a FW plex?
Now back to your assertion regarding tags (and now it seems not wearing them as they used to) and those facts to back them up. Do you have anything to show me, or should I just take it it was anecdotal? You seemed to imply the use of tags some how changed my facts. (it didn't btw, you don't lose sec status for shooting -5 and below.) So what is it?
Oh and just to throw a spanner in the works for you, I pride myself on my -10. But don't let my anecdotal evidence sway you in any way. After all I'm just a pirate. Yarr
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
475
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Posted - 2015.03.10 19:03:24 -
[105] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Mag's wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex. You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them? Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void. Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10. If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring? Let me clear this up. It is not the pie sec status I am talking about. It is the pie identity as in not a fw opponent. Basically substitute neutral for pie in my first post.
Yeah if you are pie sec status there is no sec status loss worry. But if you are a pie or neutral but have sec status above -5 then there is the moment of decision.
What I was trying to say is rp-ing pies go into the plex knowing they are gunning for the occupant. Whether he's fw or not, and whether they personally have pie sec status or not. FW players on the other hand chose to get into fw for fw objectives (or yes some just to farm lp). The farmers are just going to run anyway or will be afk and die really quickly.
The fw pvp player though is looking to pvp anyone, pvp only his war target opponent, achieve a game objective of timing out the plex, gain fw lp, or any combination of those objectives. His decision on fighting may depend on whether the slicer entering is a pie or a wt. It could mean the difference between **** it my t1 frig will just get kited by the slicer so time to warp away, **** it I'm going to try and kill the slicer (maybe because he is a wt and I don't want him running this plex), **** it I waited too long to warp I guess I'd better lock and shoot before he has dictated the range he wants, or oops I waited to long to decide and he has already dictated range, etc.
Many neutrals/pies/interlopers etc in the faction warzone know that their objectives and/or lack of care about sec status differ from the fw player. Many love the advantage this brings in a fight. They don't want to see it go. The playing field is already tipped in favor of the neutral that doesn't care about sec status and doesn't care about the plex timer or system militia sov. I fail to see how any of them can object to a suspect flag if they already knew they were going to aggress the non-FW or FW player whether or not they got aggressed first.
tl:dr FW players care more about sec status hit than nullsec home ratting easy sec gain neutral or don't give a **** about sec hits pie. It is not a special snowflake plea, it is different objectives in gameplay. To have the rules penalize the fw when any suspect flag was already not a concern to the neutral or pie is a stupid state of affairs.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
187
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Posted - 2015.03.11 00:27:19 -
[106] - Quote
Honestly really the idea makes sense.
A pirate (negative sec status) player is not going to care about any further efects to his/her status. A suspect (yellow flashy flag) would seriously help those FW pilots that care about their Sec status and what not.
IT should not be a problem to flag a non FW player as suspect, there is no disadvantage to the non-FW player for doing so....but their is a disadvantage for the FW player whom is basically legitimate military officer in a time of war for not doing flaggin non military pilots as suspect.
+1 |
Wolf Kruol
Hikaru's Dozen
75
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Posted - 2015.03.11 02:36:53 -
[107] - Quote
I like this idea.. +1 from me.
GÇ£If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?
You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!GÇ¥
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
447
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Posted - 2015.03.11 03:21:54 -
[108] - Quote
The best solution proposed is removing sec status penalties from FW plexes. That is for everyone.
There are a lot of RL analogies being thrown around in here, specifically the argument that shooting neutrals should have a negative consequence because you can't kill civilians while at war. The problem with this argument is that the system is at war, but the plex specifically is a battlefield. If you feel threatened by a neutral party on the battlefield you are not reprimanded for shooting first. Certainly not if that neutral party is carrying weapons and is logically there to shoot you.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
5092
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Posted - 2015.03.12 10:36:32 -
[109] - Quote
Bad idea is bad. Either wait to get hit and engage or grow a pair and take the sec hit.
I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Demon your parents warned you about.
||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
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Flash Thomson
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
26
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Posted - 2015.03.12 10:52:44 -
[110] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:Bad idea is bad. Either wait to get hit and engage or grow a pair and take the sec hit.
(Sorry for picking you Jack, I could have selected many other as well, but you are just one up =D)
I am going to make the assumption you are one of the Pilots not participating in Factional Warfare a profiteer, a filthy pirate, a mass murderer or just a simple a violent lunatic, who kills capsuleers for fun or profit.
You say it is a bad Idea but give no reasons why! You tell me to grow a pair but don't have one your self?
You don't care about the sec hit, so why complain about suspect flag? I thought it is fights you are after, so how does the suspect flag bother you? I think it will be helpful! Plenty of people will be able to shoot you for quite some time!
Oh... you are not after fights you don't start? Oh... You might not be able to pull range? Oh... you see your self at an disadvantage because of that?
Well guess what, that makes two of us! But I actually have a reason to be in a plex!
I am a Faction War Pilot. I fight for my State. I am no Pirate nor do I want to be one! I loose security standing for shooting an idiot entering a Battlefield with a Ship intended for war?
That's just Bullshit and most seem to know it!
PS: Thank's for the likes and the awesome discussion ;) Keep at it =D
Tanking since 1982
Reporting Caldari Faction Warfare news on
www.caldarinews.wordpress.com
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JetStream Drenard
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
58
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Posted - 2015.03.12 14:45:24 -
[111] - Quote
Low Sec is broken, but your sec status has little to do with it. It is supposed to be a place where people can PvP, without going to null. ANYTHING, that limits pvp in low sec is broken. It is basically a heavier version of high sec rather then a lighter version of null.
Gate guns. The average small gang cannot cope with gate guns especially destroyer and below. This forces the need for cruiser logi in a fleet that does not want to use remote reps. This limits engagements with the daytrippers and any other small -medium fleet that simply wants easy kills and will not leave a gate environment as they travel.
Without gate guns, you would have more insta-locking, risk averse, easy-button pressers sitting on gates all over the place. Being Pi, allows neutral sec fleets to attack you without receiving a suspect flag and therefore leaving a small gang trying to engage them with the choice of abandoning the person being attacked, or fighting with gate guns defending the neutral aggressor. In small gang the choice is made to abandon because you cannot weather the gate gun fire, or most of your local reps are dedicated to handling gate gun dps instead of target dps. This is the reason why me and most of my corp fix our sec status, as it prevents being pwned on a gate.
So CCP could either remove gate guns or make the weapons flag visible to all and not allow gate guns from defending a neutral with a weapons timer, but it you should still get sec status loss for attacking a neutral, even if the gate guns dont defend them. I would vote for the latter, as gate guns is the only thing that prevents perma camps by people who do not understand the mechanics.
FW Deadspace Complexes. First, your sec status is irrelevant. The idea of making all FW Deadspace complexes a sec loss free zone (NOT a suspect status free zone) is appealing only because it can help to encourage PvP, with the truly risk averse that think sec status loss is some horrible thing that prevents them from living in high sec and running lvl4 missions all day.
The truth is the truly risk averse are only looking for easy kills and not good fights, and these people will rarely enter your plex anyway. BUT there exists the chance that it just might encourage more people to come to FW space to fight in plexes without sec status loss, and that is never a bad thing. Giving them suspect flags for entering is the opposite of encouraging pvp.
Sec Status. Working as intended. That is your consequence for attacking neutrals.
OP, All your arguments of pvp are worthless as is your militia. The truth is all you want to do is gank people while running away from every credible fight (good fight). Even though preventing sec status loss in FW plexes, would just increase your ability to skate around low sec, pretending to be in a war, while living in high sec is classic squid avoidance strategy, it is still a good idea from a pvp mmo stance. But dont pretend like your militia will suddenly get more content, you have plenty of content right now that you rarely use in any way other then ganking, it is called Gal Mil. You will only get more risk free content, which is all you really want anyway. The unfortunate part is that doing what is right for the game only makes your inability to play it stronger. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3731
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Posted - 2015.03.12 14:58:08 -
[112] - Quote
Noooooo not this, again!
Tbh, I'd have no issue with removing sec status penalties in lowsec altogether. Though I'm -9.97 so I guess it's obvious that I don't really care.
I see no reason to make special snowflake exceptions in FW plexes, though.
Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.
Diversity is good.
Amen.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3731
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Posted - 2015.03.12 15:03:36 -
[113] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:I don't understand the hesitation or fear of inheriting a Suspect flag. It is not long at all. If you lose the fight, it may very well take you its duration to reship. If you win the fight, you spend that time looting and looking for another target, while also being a valid target to others.
The suspect flag is not a big deal! I get one every time I fly almost. You guys act like going GCC was years ago. You can still dock. You can still gate travel. You can even go into highsec (scary!).
Please explain to me why suspect is such a hard penalty to deal with if you are attempting a fight with/as a neutral? I see only exaggeration. Friend, I believe it's not the flag but the sec status hit because :highsec: (*me shudders).
I was slightly annoyed about my -9-97 status exactly once, one some galmil dudes I was in fleet with decided to go mess with the squids in Onnamon and I couldn't go with .
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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JetStream Drenard
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
58
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Posted - 2015.03.12 15:28:44 -
[114] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.
Gully! Have not seen you in a while. I do Agree. In the interest of pvp opportunity, gate guns could be tweaked to not defend a neutral with a weapons timer. It would help small gangs pvp on gates enormously. But it is not a game changer. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3731
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Posted - 2015.03.12 15:35:14 -
[115] - Quote
JetStream Drenard wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Also, suspect status and gate/station guns would need to stay imo, they're there for a good reason: making lowsec a bit easier to travel through or live in compared to null (along with no bubbles). Else there would be no difference vs. NPC null.
Gully! Have not seen you in a while. I do Agree. In the interest of pvp opportunity, gate guns could be tweaked to not defend a neutral with a weapons timer. It would help small gangs pvp on gates enormously. But it is not a game changer. Yeah, RL's been a bit of a ***** lately...! Can just occasionally troll the forums atm, but I should be able to get back to pew-pew by next week or so.
See you soon in battle!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
102
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Posted - 2015.03.12 16:00:15 -
[116] - Quote
Most of my concern is being pie while flying support ships. We fight s lot of neutrals on gates. Being below -5 is pretty advantageous in this situation. I also Rambo through high sec in my cruiser more and then for the shortcut to Blackrise from The Citadel, or even down from Placid to Essence. My better navigation skills ask also makes me prefer Oreb in the transport instead of my indie, when I bring my mods in.
There are a lot of arguments against the suspect flag, but I find it even more despicable to be dropped in by s known awoxer, or neutral (both have happened to me) and watch them look at my ship, do my own range control as I wait for the first shot, only to see this ****** warp off and not engage. Once or was the SAME guy that fought me the day before when I was blaster and mwd fit. And that is BS.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3733
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Posted - 2015.03.12 16:15:29 -
[117] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:There are a lot of arguments against the suspect flag, but I find it even more despicable to be dropped in by s known awoxer, or neutral (both have happened to me) and watch them look at my ship, do my own range control as I wait for the first shot, only to see this ****** warp off and not engage. Once or was the SAME guy that fought me the day before when I was blaster and mwd fit. And that is BS. Haven't been able to log on much lately, but last I heard known (=bad standings to corp) galmil awoxers are officially 'point and shoot first, discuss later'... At least that's what I do EDIT: my overview shows standings before militia, so I don't even have to think (:effort:)
For Minnies in our space, my rule always was 'shoot if not blue to corp'.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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