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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
JaffaCake
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:51:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Mikal Drey if you need one of the 4 racial encryption skills to invent items; what about ORE ? does this already mean that hulks/makinaws/skiffs will also not be possible to invent like the already mentioned Covert ops cloak ?
also will whoever has an expanded cargo hold 1 BPC be able to create expanded cargohold II bpc's ? <-- this guy would be seriously rich.
WTS 300-run Expander 1 BPCs
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:03:00 -
[92]
Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Thank you. _________________________________________
The cloaky orchestrator |
JaffaCake
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:30:00 -
[93]
When you see past all this datacore/decryptor rubbish, "Invention" is still a "T2 Lottery", it just costs a bit more to enter and the rewards are fewer.
I think i'll be keeping my RPs right where they are
~
re: T1 "rare" BPOs: If these are to be placed on the market, then it is only right that the T1 bpos already released be turned into T2 bpos.
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GreyMana
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 -
[94]
Just some thoughts of mine:
Buying components from RPs Personally I don't like that much. Especially when the chance of success is lower than 75%. I would rather like to reduce the number of required points to 10-20 (or 30-60 on those 3x fields) and adjust it by the time you need to create an invention (e.g. 48-60 hours for one Cap Recharger II and maybe 2-3 weeks for a HAC). Rather keep those time up and balance them down later.
Invention slots in empire There should be inventions slots in R&D stations and in POS. But please fix POS labs before that, so that you can actually open POS lab slots to the public (not only the GUI for it). This would also help the current ME research.
Profession sites I would really like to see such sites only via dynamic exploration only, spread on the whole empire/0.0. I don't think we need any more complex farming. Maybe re-activate rumor agents who can tell you possible sites.
Deep space TBH... My illusion that (mainchar) scientist are ever needed in 0.0 and alliances is gone. You would need to introduce some kind of licensing (limiting the item usage to self/corp/ally/all from cheap to expensive) is also out of vision for inventions. So I guess it will change nothing.
Profession: Science & Industry There are plenty of research and industrial alts out there which easily can shove away any main-char researcher by pure specialization. My fear is that the whole invention process either requires shooty-shooty or simply putting something in the oven and wait. I don't have a solution for this right now beside requiring some courier missions. Maybe another point in this category are the required skills. It would be nice if you also need the T1 skills to do an invention - I guess that would put alts a little bit in behind (e.g. requiring Caldari Cruiser 3 for an Eagle/Cerberus).
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Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.30 22:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Naal Morno Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Thank you.
Well, they could always convert the prototype cloak to a TII item and add a new TI item which is replaced as the pre-requisite for the improved cloak with slightly worse stats I guess : Standard Cloak I if you will, I think thats about as kind as they can be in this case though since the entire idea with invention is to remove the cap on TII production and thus put a ceiling on TII prices, so one way or another the cloaks are going to have to become inventable.
Its not as though said BPO's haven't been highly profitable up till now though is it ?
. ----- It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.30 23:56:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
Its not as though said BPO's haven't been highly profitable up till now though is it ?
That's not the point... The are, however other BPOs would not get affected to such extent as Proto I BPO owners by seeding the said BPO. Their investment would become worth close to nothing overnight by sloppy decision to seed.
Any reasonable solution including BPO swap (giving Improved II or Covert II BPOs for example, best choice being a BPO of your choice) is best solution to the problem. Nobody would complain and everyone would be happy. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I stopped thinking so anymore. |
Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.30 23:58:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
Teehee.
1: Most people in 0.0 do not have all those fancy t2 BPO's. 2: Learn to play, and you won't get ganked. I run from Vuorrassi up into Tenal and Branch every day, you can easily sneak a single BS out into 0.0. 3: With the new BCs, HACs are overrated. Hell, with 2 well fit cruisers or a good BC you can kill a HAC.
Come on people, 0.0 is not scary, entering it will not immediatly send you home in a pod. Go deep into alliance space and you can find nice tasty NPCrs and Miners. Any time you can pull 200+ mil in loot off a ship is a good time, and lots of 0.0 alliance members use good loot.
As for the rest of the invention thing, I hope it somewhat removes the need to come to empire or to move into the core systems to get a hold of some items. All I know is that we'll be working on that, and that with Rigs, at least one ship in gang will be used for salvaging.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.31 00:18:00 -
[98]
so... RP for datacores.. how does this work?
I have 4 agents: 1 x Laser Physics (x2 mod) 1 x Gallente Starship (x3 mod) 1 x Mechanical Eng (x1 mod) 1 x Electronic Eng (x1 mod)
I want to buy a datacore (or 10) for each - does that mean that the datacores will be priced based on the research mod eg. a Mech Eng Datacore is worth 100rp, a Laser Physics 200rp, Starship 300rp?
Or will each skill have an random fixed price based on something?
What about standings towards the agent/corp/faction - will that effect prices? Should my agent who I have worked with faithfully for 2 years decide to give me the big finger and say "I don't care about our relationship, go shop somewhere else and see if i give a sh*t". Or the corp i have been running missions for for so long that I may as well be a member of their corp say they don't care when i go to another corp's R&D division to get a datacore as they don't really care.
What about market demand - obviously if certain datacores are more popular, their value in RP would be higher (they are worth more isk), or even lower (try to undercut other researchers). ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Anatolli Korenchken
AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:05:00 -
[99]
Hmm all this talk about Datacores being only available from Agents is strange as the dev blogsays that "the same profession sites can also be harvested to get Datacores, Decryptors, skills and other relevant stuff." --------------- Computer: HULL BREACH. Core implosion imminent. Controller: "SH*T! Prime the escape pod now! Commander! Commander what are your orders!" Commander: "Deploy the Gummy Bears."
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Quurst
Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.10.31 08:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Naal Morno
That's not the point... The are, however other BPOs would not get affected to such extent as Proto I BPO owners by seeding the said BPO. Their investment would become worth close to nothing overnight by sloppy decision to seed.
It's exactly the point of invention. A BPO will no longer give you exclusive right to produce a T2 item for nearly all items except cloaks. The sloppy decision to seed was made when they gave out prototype cloaks in limited supply.
Most of the profit in T2 currently is due to artificial low supply of blueprints. That's getting fixed in Kali by allowing players to increase the supply. I don't see why cloaks should be an exception.
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:02:00 -
[101]
I actually managed to log into the test server to try it, and couldn't find any installations to Invent in?
Also, it offered me the invention right-click menu option on BPOs, I thought it was just BPCs. And I couldn't figure out how to invent ammo BPCs.
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McNamara
Caldari THETA PROJECT
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:49:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Naal Morno Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
I guess rare T1 BPO owners already got their share of ISKies. As in real life, all technology breakthroughs become widely used and easily obtainable over time. Look at your PC, now you can buy it for less than 1000 bucks. 40 years ago you'd pay millions for such piece of hardware.
Originally by: Naal Morno Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Well, i know some people that really invested in research, but their investments by far returned now. Those who got their BPOs by pure luck either got their fat ISK right away (selling the BPO) or "earned" alot selling items.
No imbalance in seeding T1 BPOs. In fact, T2 BPOs should be seeded over time, and invention is a good move to this direction.
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Level4
Minmatar Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Vasiliyan I actually managed to log into the test server to try it, and couldn't find any installations to Invent in?
Also, it offered me the invention right-click menu option on BPOs, I thought it was just BPCs. And I couldn't figure out how to invent ammo BPCs.
mobile labs is the only structure with an invention slot right now, so you need to setup a pos to try it out.
Join us in channel "Profit" |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:47:00 -
[104]
I get your point, the desire to effectively punish only small subset of R&D rewards benefactors (the rare T1 BPO owners) for not getting the T2 BPO but the said rare T1 BPO. Way to go.
What you are proposing (just seeding without regard of said owners) is unfair since at the same time you are not proposing seeding any other BPOs (T2). Well, maybe you do but you won't have it your way.
I would be ok with with seeing Proto cloak I BPOs, not a problem there, so long owners of said BPOs are put on equal footing with T2 BPO owners by getting granted an opportunity to swap BPOs for T2. This would fix the cloaks problem (you can invent it, BPO owners don't get screwed over).
Doesn't this only sound fair?
Thanks. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I stopped thinking so anymore. |
caver
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:52:00 -
[105]
Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:56:19 I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
Agent offers database: http://caver.org/eve/ |
Olea Avenger
Gallente GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.10.31 16:25:00 -
[106]
I have not been able to get on Singularity lately (it is down I presume). When doing invention, what you are trying to invent does not rely on the skills to actually build the Tech 2 item, correct? Also, when inventing from one item which has two possible Tech 2 types (say Ishkur and Enyo from Incursus), is it completely random what BPC I will get? <br /> <br /> Sign up for the campaign against Angel ratts today. |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Gamer4liff I think a lot of what invention boils down to is getting rid of RP, and the more RP gotten rid of the better. 200 RP is laughable to people as myself who have been researching for years. long-time researchers like myself are more or less the target of invention after all. Also I'm willing to bet that the 'cores for things other than starships will cost proportionally less RP than starship eng' 'cores.
Well I also have over 200k RP... but if they charge over 1k RP each, all of us research vets will be out of RP within a week or two and than T2 prices will go back up and Invention will be useless...
If it is aimed to long standing researcher it means it is way broken for young researchers. Not an idea I found so fun as that is a defect common enough in EVE. Most of the features are sized to veterans players, cutting out the recent ones. With my current agents I am in the 30-50 RP a day (not counting the fields multipliers) and 200 RP for datacore (with the ones for starship research at x3 probably), will use my build up point very fast.
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:55:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Olea Avenger I have not been able to get on Singularity lately (it is down I presume). When doing invention, what you are trying to invent does not rely on the skills to actually build the Tech 2 item, correct? Also, when inventing from one item which has two possible Tech 2 types (say Ishkur and Enyo from Incursus), is it completely random what BPC I will get?
If you read the latest dev blog on invention, you get a 50% / 50% chance if their are 2 T2 verions.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:04:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ronon Dex
I think a month of research to produce say a 10 run T2 module BPC or a 1 run T2 ship BPC would be reasonable, which would mean a couple hundred RP's per datacore Max
A little math isk wise: 120 millions for a HAC, 30 day to research it with maybe 75% chance of succes? Costs: decent researched BPC 1 million, use 6000 RP, 30 day research slot another 500K, = 1.5 mil and 6000 RP worth about 3 millions (usually LP give items worth about 500 isk for LP) = 4.5 million/75% chance of success = 6 million cost every successfull BPC
Production cost: inefficent build BPC, another 45 millions in materials.
So about 50 millions and 40 days to build a ship selling maybe at 120 millions, about 2 millions/day gain. I think I can do more with some well chosen T1 item. It will be done for personal use and to try to get some difficult to find ship/module, not as a commercial venture.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:23:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Naal Morno I get your point, the desire to effectively punish only small subset of R&D rewards benefactors (the rare T1 BPO owners) for not getting the T2 BPO but the said rare T1 BPO. Way to go.
What you are proposing (just seeding without regard of said owners) is unfair since at the same time you are not proposing seeding any other BPOs (T2). Well, maybe you do but you won't have it your way.
I would be ok with with seeing Proto cloak I BPOs, not a problem there, so long owners of said BPOs are put on equal footing with T2 BPO owners by getting granted an opportunity to swap BPOs for T2. This would fix the cloaks problem (you can invent it, BPO owners don't get screwed over).
Doesn't this only sound fair?
Thanks.
A simple thought "prototype" cloak I is or can be a named model of cloak, not the base cloak. Simply add a cloak I BPO to market, as it was suggested with worse fittings requirements and even worse spedd modifier, a little like the difference between a 250 railgun and a prototype 250 railgun. The prototype cloak will keep a reasonable price, and not be reaserchable, the BPC will be available for the T2 research.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:59:00 -
[111]
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Levin Milcaro
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:04:00 -
[112]
hmmm, would really like to see those data interface be aviable in empire or have say... 50k RP to buy it off the R&D agent or something.
(50k is about 200 days of reseach with an agent, if one is doing them missions. should probley lower the amount of RP needed though, 200 days is errm long.)
this way atleast people can EVENTUALLY get into research. regardless if they are part of one of those huge and really hard to get in alliances.
if its 0.0 only: well, I can bet my last isky that it will be farmed and put in empire market for an unholy amount of isks (my guess it will be in the billions: with the excuse that it is needed in research.)
and we all know what happened with plexes...
(and it makes RolePlay sense too, I mean, what the heck is some high tech gizsmo doing in the middle of a hick farm? I mean, you find the latest tech in universities in errm cities.)
and I remember reading the dev blog that invention is suppose to open up T2 for everybody right?
so small timer(those who do not have the support and will be shot at by big alliances) can get in.
but yeah... we need more info!!!!
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:58:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
I really don't see why that is so horrible. 1500 seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Ronon Dex
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Posted - 2006.11.01 04:27:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
I really don't see why that is so horrible. 1500 seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Inairin
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Posted - 2006.11.01 05:47:00 -
[115]
datacore better drop en masse at the 0.0 invention complexes. being out there risking my ship getting blasted to tiny tiny bits should be more worthwhile than stroking the hull of some stupid agent in safespace.
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.01 08:35:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 01/11/2006 08:41:29
Originally by: caver Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:58:18 Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:56:19 I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
I absolutly love you :) u just saved me the trip of hell trying to get to my R&D agent (scarily so its the same dude)
1500RP sems a little high but tbh worth it.
238rpd x 7 days = 1666 for my L4 R&D
Put a JC in his station and thats 1 a week @ whatever they might sell for. Also i believe that the data cores are non destructive and can be used infinatley which also means that the 1500rp cost is ok.
Now just gott get back to my hq for more testing :/ /me senses a pod jump
Originally by: Eilie I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
The encryption skillZ arent used for the data cores but WILL be essential for the actual process of invention. no real screenies as yet but if you needed to create an invention from a rifter BPC then
1) you need the datacore 2) you need minmatar encryption.
dont worry its not wasted isk
The only gripe will be that low level R&D agents will take longer to get datacores but i would assume that CCP have lower level Datacores available; remember the dev blog stated that they will be various datacores and at various RP costs.
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caver
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:14:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Put a JC in his station and thats 1 a week @ whatever they might sell for. Also i believe that the data cores are non destructive and can be used infinatley which also means that the 1500rp cost is ok.
DEV blog === 7. Other items (Datacores, Tech I BPCs and the optional items) are always destroyed, no matter if the job is successful or not. ===
Agent offers database: http://caver.org/eve/ |
Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:34:00 -
[118]
"He also gets his Data Interface back, they are never destroyed."
**** my Tech I reading skillZ
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violator2k5
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:57:00 -
[119]
humm theres a lot of posts here already. imo theres only a few bits of information that i think should be made public.
1) The chances of getting a t2 bpc from a t1 bpc per run + formular to work out the increased chances of a multi run bpc.
obviously module and ship bpcs will have different chances (hopefully the chances of gaining a t2 ship will be lower)
2) a list of t2 items that can actually be invented
=============
with that said, there was mention of a certain item that can only be retrieved from 0.0 space. The idea of doing that is actually good cos it will stop any tom di*k or harry from getting their hands on it. It will also force the alliance owners of that space to be more careful with who they allow access to their threshold if they do at all. not to mention it will probably involve a lot of gate camps to gain access to that area so the chances of any empire person with a lack of 0.0 travel actually getting there is another question of chance
i myself am still in between minds with wanting invention to work or not. from a mission / pvp side i'd love to get the mods / ships cheaper then they are now but from an industry side i'd much rather see the prices stay as they are.
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:11:00 -
[120]
The problem is how can we truely evaluate or test the invention component if they have not put into the test server the complette package. However, is what is their the complette package? If not, what is missing?
Without the complette Invention package how can we evaluate or let alone discuss its usefulnes/pointless factor when all we have is the bare bones of what invention is.
Final note. Is this, the stuff on the test server the only stuff we are getting for 'Invention' or are their going to be additional stuff?
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