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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
624
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:53:54 -
[241] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy.
Not killed easily, but not defended easily. Unlike low and nullsec, a tear down wardec will not have to worry about a combative third party.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
3342
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:55:22 -
[242] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success. And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy.
That's a design decision.
Do you do anything other than whine? Gimme your stuff and quit already.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Syeed Ameer Ali
Evil Murder Society
2
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:58:58 -
[243] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:One thing reading, and my usual personal opinion is that the war dec mechanic is really just incomplete. We need to, as I always say, break it down to the core fundamentals.
What is the purpose of Eve? Of a war dec? In concept, It is essentially buying a permit of competition.
In reality, it makes combat casual.
Nothing in eve should be "casual" except stuff like in corp and dual combat for sport. Therefore, wardecs are good, the mechanics are far primitive.
I think first thing is get rid of concept as a "war". It should be exactly what it is, and that I cannot think of a word. Essentially an application for hostile business competition.
Take whatever you will of that, but I really think it should be that a person pays to get rights over another group, plain and simple. Almost like a bribe? But any war dec should not be global. Person pays CONCORD for permission to engage in combat vs another target in public space. But that has to be assigned to bring in the competition.
Trader wants somebody to stop running stuff to a system? Declare in that hub, gankers can declare against mining corps in their favorite hubs. Select systems, regions, constellation. War dec determined only by the range of space you are claiming.
So for example, some corp is doing major mission running out of sinq, you can declare that whole region. Two mining corps are in an area. One wants some belts, can claim that constellation or just a few key systems.
Cost is determined similar to office costs. Have some tally based on station services, sec status, usage and travel in system. So if you dec somebody just for jita, expect it to cost hundreds of mil a week whereas out in solitude might be pennies.
All of lowsec is covered in any base cost of a wardec which would be the current cost system. If the war is made mutual, then it becomes global.
Now, wardecs are effective for as a competition tool instead of just a grief/casual PVP tool.
What, a suggestion for wardec reform that is both original and actually makes sense? You must be in the wrong forum.
I'd love to declare war on a whole highsec system or region, or even the entire Jita-Amarr pipe.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:01:39 -
[244] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success. And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy. :) Are you trying to drag this off topic? I was primarily quoting CCP Ytterbium who did indeed confirm on Reddit that XL citadels would not be released into highsec without a way for their large HP wall to be defeated. It was not my fault that the carebear brigade decide to try to justify why 120 hours of grinding structures to even attempt to contest them in highsec was perfectly reasonable game design.
None of us are entitled to success but we are entitled to attempt to affect the game play of each other. No one gets to be safe in this game and that includes hiding behind insurmountable HP walls that provide free protection. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26332
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:13:47 -
[245] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Because it's more rewarding to mass wardec soft targets than it is to go after people with a reasonable chance, thus the whole concept of risk/reward across the mechanic is broken. How is it GÇ£more rewardingGÇ¥?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26332
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:29:34 -
[246] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: I'm not doing this again. Your loss. I'll keep saying that wardecs have been rebalanced then, and call you daft for laughing at a problem you can't even articulate properly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:29:51 -
[247] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success. And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy. That's a design decision. Do you do anything other than whine? Gimme your stuff and quit already.
Getting upset on the hypocrisy exposed in full view I see, there we go one of your fellow gankers saying that the current level of force in hisec are entitled to take down whatever structures go up in hisec and if they cannot they should not be allowed in hisec.
As for my stuff, my corp is using it blowing up stuff in Stain.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:36:22 -
[248] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success. And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy. :) Are you trying to drag this off topic? I was primarily quoting CCP Ytterbium who did indeed confirm on Reddit that XL citadels would not be released into highsec without a way for their large HP wall to be defeated. It was not my fault that the carebear brigade decide to try to justify why 120 hours of grinding structures to even attempt to contest them in highsec was perfectly reasonable game design. None of us are entitled to success but we are entitled to attempt to affect the game play of each other. No one gets to be safe in this game and that includes hiding behind insurmountable HP walls that provide free protection.
All people have to do is go to that thread and read your posts to see what you said, you feel entitled to be able to blow up anything that can be put up in hisec, and if your are currently unable to do so then you do not expect them to be in hisec.
CCP Ytterbium needs to state that in the comment thread in their own forum in terms of that dev blog, comments on Reddit are just comments on Reddit.
The carebear brigade as you so lovingly put it, called you out on the fact that you would have to up your game to kill them, and yet all you want is a nerf or a ban, sounds like entitlement to me. You were crying because you did not have the will to kill them, just as you do not have the will to kill large POS's nor the will to kill properly tanked skiffs.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16657
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:57:14 -
[249] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
All people have to do is go to that thread and read your posts to see what you said, you feel entitled to be able to blow up anything that can be put up in hisec, and if your are currently unable to do so then you do not expect them to be in hisec.
CCP Ytterbium needs to state that in the comment thread in their own forum in terms of that dev blog, comments on Reddit are just comments on Reddit.
The carebear brigade as you so lovingly put it, called you out on the fact that you would have to up your game to kill them, and yet all you want is a nerf or a ban, sounds like entitlement to me. You were crying because you did not have the will to kill them, just as you do not have the will to kill large POS's nor the will to kill properly tanked skiffs.
As for being off topic, the structures will be an important facet of war decs in hisec and the main reason for people to fight, it is very very important in terms of hisec war decs.
Grinding through an XL citadel without supers or dreads would be like tossing two battleships up against a dickstar POS.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:18:03 -
[250] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:All people have to do is go to that thread and read your posts to see what you said, you feel entitled to be able to blow up anything that can be put up in hisec, and if your are currently unable to do so then you do not expect them to be in hisec.
CCP Ytterbium needs to state that in the comment thread in their own forum in terms of that dev blog, comments on Reddit are just comments on Reddit.
The carebear brigade as you so lovingly put it, called you out on the fact that you would have to up your game to kill them, and yet all you want is a nerf or a ban, sounds like entitlement to me. You were crying because you did not have the will to kill them, just as you do not have the will to kill large POS's nor the will to kill properly tanked skiffs.
As for being off topic, the structures will be an important facet of war decs in hisec and the main reason for people to fight, it is very very important in terms of hisec war decs. Of course they can go read that thread, that is how discussion forums work. In fact, I encourage everyone who wants to view a prime example of the mental gymnastics some players go through to justify thier self-interest take a look. It was basically me pointing out that CCP Ytterbium said they would not release XL citadels in highsec without a counter of some sort, and then 6 pages of people trying to explain to me that they should because even though no one grinds large POSes now in highsec, that making structures take 5 times longer to grind and drop no loot was going to usher in a golden age of content in highsec.
Comments from CCP developers on Reddit have no merit? Well if you are basing your hopes that XL structures will get released in highsec without a counter to the unreasonably high HP on the fact that Yttebium chose to make those comments on Reddit rather than somewhere else, you are quite delusional.
The original design for the new structures had no HP grind - one player could try to kill them. CCP clearly wants them to be easy to attack, and even easier to defend. There is no way the design will go from taking one person to 100 players to contest. It isn't a matter of will it is just a matter of basic game design. There are no groups large enough in highsec or low-class wormholes to field the force needed without capitals especially without any incentive beyond a kill mail to attack them.
The structure revamp is suppose to generate content for groups of all sizes and reduce the more tedious parts of the game. Adding XLs to highsec with 5 times the amount of the current grind does not satisfy those design goals. It will never happen. Why are you so concerned over what happens in highsec anyway. You moved out remember?
But you are right, structures are why wardecs will never go away. They are absolutely required to remove structures in highsec. |
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:42:39 -
[251] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:All people have to do is go to that thread and read your posts to see what you said, you feel entitled to be able to blow up anything that can be put up in hisec, and if your are currently unable to do so then you do not expect them to be in hisec.
CCP Ytterbium needs to state that in the comment thread in their own forum in terms of that dev blog, comments on Reddit are just comments on Reddit.
The carebear brigade as you so lovingly put it, called you out on the fact that you would have to up your game to kill them, and yet all you want is a nerf or a ban, sounds like entitlement to me. You were crying because you did not have the will to kill them, just as you do not have the will to kill large POS's nor the will to kill properly tanked skiffs.
As for being off topic, the structures will be an important facet of war decs in hisec and the main reason for people to fight, it is very very important in terms of hisec war decs. Of course they can go read that thread, that is how discussion forums work. In fact, I encourage everyone who wants to view a prime example of the mental gymnastics some players go through to justify thier self-interest take a look. It was basically me pointing out that CCP Ytterbium said they would not release XL citadels in highsec without a counter of some sort, and then 6 pages of people trying to explain to me that they should because even though no one grinds large POSes now in highsec, that making structures take 5 times longer to grind and drop no loot was going to usher in a golden age of content in highsec. Comments from CCP developers on Reddit have no merit? Well if you are basing your hopes that XL structures will get released in highsec without a counter to the unreasonably high HP on the fact that Yttebium chose to make those comments on Reddit rather than somewhere else, you are quite delusional. The original design for the new structures had no HP grind - one player could try to kill them. CCP clearly wants them to be easy to attack, and even easier to defend. There is no way the design will go from taking one person to 100 players to contest. It isn't a matter of will it is just a matter of basic game design. There are no groups large enough in highsec or low-class wormholes to field the force needed without capitals especially without any incentive beyond a kill mail to attack them. The structure revamp is suppose to generate content for groups of all sizes and reduce the more tedious parts of the game. Adding XLs to highsec with 5 times the amount of the current grind does not satisfy those design goals. It will never happen. Why are you so concerned over what happens in highsec anyway. You moved out remember? But you are right, structures are why wardecs will never go away. They are absolutely required to remove structures in highsec.
There are different factions within CCP, making a comment on Reddit is not the same as saying something on their own forums, its expressing an opinion as CCP Ytterbium in terms of the discussion, it is not CCP's agreed opinion and to keep mis-representing that as such is plain wrong.
It was explained to you that people do not grind large POS's in hisec because they do not want to, not because they cannot and the same will be true of the XL Citadels. We also pointed out that just because there is currently no group able to do it does not mean there won't be, also you can pay for loads of mercs to join in the attack if your wallet is big enough and bring in all those gank toons with high DPS BC's trained up. You lot could do it, but it requires effort, but you are entitled to success...
As for me not being in hisec, I am looking for some interesting gameplay to develop from XL structures in hisec, if CCP Ytterbium and people like you get in the way of what will be a massive conflict and content driver it will be very disappointing, I for one would be part of that event if CCP does not screw up and I won't say more than that.
As I said I would limit war decs to only be applicable to entities that have a structure, hence being a reason to fight.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:43:54 -
[252] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grinding through an XL citadel without supers or dreads would be like tossing two battleships up against a dickstar POS.
Or bombless bombers?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
598
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 18:54:19 -
[253] - Quote
how come gate guns can't kill camping battleships with smart bombs?
is this 'balanced'?
maybe you should just accept that high sec can tank you and move on.
forums. -áserious business.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:21:36 -
[254] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:There are different factions within CCP, making a comment on Reddit is not the same as saying something on their own forums, its expressing an opinion as CCP Ytterbium in terms of the discussion, it is not CCP's agreed opinion and to keep mis-representing that as such is plain wrong. You really are quite delusional. CCP Ytterbium is a lead game designer, in charge of the team responsible for the new structures. He made the comment in the reddit thread announcing the changes to the structure design. When specifically asked about the problem of the large number of HP and the lack of capitals in highsec he said "XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern."
There is no room for doubt what he meant. XL citadels will have a counter for the large amount of hit points or they will not be released into highsec. Just let the issue go. Dracvlad wrote:It was explained to you that people do not grind large POS's in hisec because they do not want to, not because they cannot and the same will be true of the XL Citadels. We also pointed out that just because there is currently no group able to do it does not mean there won't be, also you can pay for loads of mercs to join in the attack if your wallet is big enough and bring in all those gank toons with high DPS BC's trained up. You lot could do it, but it requires effort, but you are entitled to success...
As for me not being in hisec, I am looking for some interesting gameplay to develop from XL structures in hisec, if CCP Ytterbium and people like you get in the way of what will be a massive conflict and content driver it will be very disappointing, I for one would be part of that event if CCP does not screw up and I won't say more than that. People do not grind large POSes in highsec because it is tedious and unfun. Of course it is theoretically possible and people on occasion do it, but no one enjoys spending the 20-30 players hours it takes wihtout capitals shooting a structure in highsec so no one does it. CCP is trying to reduce this tedium. Making the citadels not only invulnerable 95% of the time, but now take 100+ players hours, and drop no loot other than perhaps some minerals, means no one would ever do it. I explained to you how there are hardly any groups large enough to do it even if they were masochistic enough to take on such tedium.
There is absolutely, no way even the most incompetent game designer would add such a structure to the game and think they would do anything other than clutter up highsec uncontested until the day the servers are shut down. I am still awestruck that not only you, but multiple other people in that thread actually tried to present those numbers as balanced with a straight face and tried convince me that XL citadels without caps or some other counter in highsec would be good for the game.
The citadels are intended to be attacked so that the defenders have to defend and thus generate content. There are not going to be released with HP walls so high that they cannot be attacked in highsec by anyone other than the large low/nullsec entities.Dracvlad wrote:As I said I would limit war decs to only be applicable to entities that have a structure, hence being a reason to fight. Fine with me. I think a lower-tier corp that lacks access to structures and taxes but is immune to wardecs is a good idea for the game. But wardecs are not going away, nor are these structures going to be immune to attack by typically-sized highsec/C1/C2 corporations.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:41:53 -
[255] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:There are different factions within CCP, making a comment on Reddit is not the same as saying something on their own forums, its expressing an opinion as CCP Ytterbium in terms of the discussion, it is not CCP's agreed opinion and to keep mis-representing that as such is plain wrong. You really are quite delusional. CCP Ytterbium is a lead game designer, in charge of the team responsible for the new structures. He made the comment in the reddit thread announcing the changes to the structure design. When specifically asked about the problem of the large number of HP and the lack of capitals in highsec he said " XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern." There is no room for doubt what he meant. XL citadels will have a counter for the large amount of hit points or they will not be released into highsec. Just let the issue go. Dracvlad wrote:It was explained to you that people do not grind large POS's in hisec because they do not want to, not because they cannot and the same will be true of the XL Citadels. We also pointed out that just because there is currently no group able to do it does not mean there won't be, also you can pay for loads of mercs to join in the attack if your wallet is big enough and bring in all those gank toons with high DPS BC's trained up. You lot could do it, but it requires effort, but you are entitled to success...
As for me not being in hisec, I am looking for some interesting gameplay to develop from XL structures in hisec, if CCP Ytterbium and people like you get in the way of what will be a massive conflict and content driver it will be very disappointing, I for one would be part of that event if CCP does not screw up and I won't say more than that. People do not grind large POSes in highsec because it is tedious and unfun. Of course it is theoretically possible and people on occasion do it, but no one enjoys spending the 20-30 players hours it takes wihtout capitals shooting a structure in highsec so no one does it. CCP is trying to reduce this tedium. Making the citadels not only invulnerable 95% of the time, but now take 100+ players hours, and drop no loot other than perhaps some minerals, means no one would ever do it. I explained to you how there are hardly any groups large enough to do it even if they were masochistic enough to take on such tedium. There is absolutely, no way even the most incompetent game designer would add such a structure to the game and think they would do anything other than clutter up highsec uncontested until the day the servers are shut down. I am still awestruck that not only you, but multiple other people in that thread actually tried to present those numbers as balanced with a straight face and tried convince me that XL citadels without caps or some other counter in highsec would be good for the game. The citadels are intended to be attacked so that the defenders have to defend and thus generate content. There are not going to be released with HP walls so high that they cannot be attacked in highsec by anyone other than the large low/nullsec entities. Dracvlad wrote:As I said I would limit war decs to only be applicable to entities that have a structure, hence being a reason to fight. Fine with me. I think a lower-tier corp that lacks access to structures and taxes but is immune to wardecs is a good idea for the game. But wardecs are not going away, nor are these structures going to be immune to attack by typically-sized highsec/C1/C2 corporations.
Actually I said multiple times that I believe that carriers and dreads will be allowed back into hisec
And I pointed out that there are numerous null sec entities that could do it, one of which the Imperium that takes huge delight in blowing up stuff in hisec, in fact I think they spend more time blowing stuff up in hisec then anywhere else with all their CODE and hisec gank alts.
Tedium, blasting freighter after freighter is tedious and yet you guys do it all the time, blowing up large EHP Sov structures in Fountain with bombers was tedious, people do it because they want to get a result and so put in effort.
His words were that XL's will be in hisec, and you said that they would not be, that was an incorrect statement on your part and mis-representing what he said. He said he would look at options to mitigate and that was that. What he said was perfectly reasonable. Delusional, about the different opinions within CCP, I can just laugh at you for that one.
You were trying too hard to annoy people so mis-represented what he said, this is why they need to say things on their own forums and not rely on someone with a vested interest for entitled kills to use his words to say something he did not.
EDIT: The war dec can only go against an entity with a structure in hisec space, if they don't have one then no war dec.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:53:46 -
[256] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:His words were that XL's will be in hisec, and you said that they would not be, that was an incorrect statement on your part and mis-representing what he said. He said he would look at options to mitigate and that was that. What he said was perfectly reasonable. Delusional, about the different opinions within CCP, I can just laugh at you for that one. Of course I never said that. I said exactly what he said. They will not be released in highsec without capitals or another counter. It was you (and several others) who took upon yourself to proclaim that those counters weren't necessary and things would be perfectly fine if CCP just released them into highsec because people would be capable, even eager to grind them down with battleships alone.
You even made that claim just a few posts ago in this thread.
One last time: that will never happen. XL citadels will only appear in highsec if dreads or some other counter is added so groups of smaller sizes can contest them. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6844
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:01:38 -
[257] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lucas Kell wrote: I'm not doing this again. Your loss. I'll keep saying that wardecs have been rebalanced then, and call you daft for laughing at a problem you can't even articulate properly. Sure, go nuts mate.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:19:14 -
[258] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:His words were that XL's will be in hisec, and you said that they would not be, that was an incorrect statement on your part and mis-representing what he said. He said he would look at options to mitigate and that was that. What he said was perfectly reasonable. Delusional, about the different opinions within CCP, I can just laugh at you for that one. Of course I never said that. I said exactly what he said. They will not be released in highsec without capitals or another counter. It was you (and several others) who took upon yourself to proclaim that those counters weren't necessary and things would be perfectly fine if CCP just released them into highsec because people would be capable, even eager to grind them down with battleships alone. You even made that claim just a few posts ago in this thread. One last time: that will never happen. XL citadels will only appear in highsec if dreads or some other counter is added so groups of smaller sizes can contest them.
And that statement was incorrect based on what he said, he said that XL's will be available in hisec period, he then said he would look at ways to mitigate the concern, he did not say mitigate the EHP. You said that XL's would not be in hisec, you changed the context of what he said.
Quote: "XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:26:58 -
[259] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Quote: "XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern. Well I am glad we finally agree on what he said and that XL citadels will not be released in highsec without some counter.
We worked long and hard to reach this consensus. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1122
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:29:16 -
[260] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Quote: "XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern. Well I am glad we finally agree on what he said and that XL citadels will not be released in highsec without some counter. We worked long and hard to reach this consensus.
He said he would look at ways to mitigate your concerns, he did not say anything about a counter.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1650
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:35:57 -
[261] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Quote: "XL will be available in high-sec yes. The point you bring up is one of many challenges we have to solve for them being there yes. No matter what we really would like all structure sizes to be available everywhere, so we'll see which options we can come up with to mitigate your concern. Well I am glad we finally agree on what he said and that XL citadels will not be released in highsec without some counter. We worked long and hard to reach this consensus. He said he would look at ways to mitigate your concerns, he did not say anything about a counter.
Well I am glad we finally agree on what he said and that XL citadels will not be released in highsec without something to mitigate my concerns.
We worked long and hard to reach this consensus. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
624
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:41:31 -
[262] - Quote
Citadels being tough to take down highsec? So what. An XL is,work to get and put up. Should be work to take down. Two battleships not able? Bring a hundred and newbs to entosis shut down them turrets. Sounds fun to me.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16658
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:00:16 -
[263] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Citadels being tough to take down highsec? So what. An XL is,work to get and put up. Should be work to take down. Two battleships not able? Bring a hundred and newbs to entosis shut down them turrets. Sounds fun to me.
As someone who has taken part in station grinding with subcap fleets for years let me tell you that it is not fun. Let's not forget these things will at the very least have the firepower of a titan. Not a single highsec entity has the firepower to pose much of a threat.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14471
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:50:40 -
[264] - Quote
admiral root wrote: Do you do anything other than whine? Gimme your stuff and quit already.
He also camps undocks with neutral logi, despite how much trash he talks about people who do wars and ganking.
SJWs always project. So you know when he calls us hypocrites or cowards, what he's really doing is admitting that about himself.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14471
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:00:06 -
[265] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: you feel entitled to be able to blow up anything that can be put up in hisec,
Other way around, liar.
You're the one who feels entitled to a nigh-invincible structure in highsec. The people who aren't a bunch of self interested furries are merely suggesting that your entitlement not be catered to. But, like all malignant narcissists, you view disagreement as the height of evil.
SJWs always project, once again on display.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
627
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:24:32 -
[266] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Markus Reese wrote:Citadels being tough to take down highsec? So what. An XL is,work to get and put up. Should be work to take down. Two battleships not able? Bring a hundred and newbs to entosis shut down them turrets. Sounds fun to me. As someone who has taken part in station grinding with subcap fleets for years let me tell you that it is not fun. Let's not forget these things will at the very least have the firepower of a titan. Not a single highsec entity has the firepower to pose much of a threat.
We took stuff down back in the day as a highsec entity. I did grinds for a reason.
So if you are attacking a citadel, have a reason. And the numbers, well that is no biggie. Can be all gank, no tank. Woo hoo. Faster than lowsec if the entosis to disable weapons still is in the plans.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16661
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 02:25:42 -
[267] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:baltec1 wrote:Markus Reese wrote:Citadels being tough to take down highsec? So what. An XL is,work to get and put up. Should be work to take down. Two battleships not able? Bring a hundred and newbs to entosis shut down them turrets. Sounds fun to me. As someone who has taken part in station grinding with subcap fleets for years let me tell you that it is not fun. Let's not forget these things will at the very least have the firepower of a titan. Not a single highsec entity has the firepower to pose much of a threat. We took stuff down back in the day as a highsec entity. I did grinds for a reason. So if you are attacking a citadel, have a reason. And the numbers, well that is no biggie. Can be all gank, no tank. Woo hoo. Faster than lowsec if the entosis to disable weapons still is in the plans.
Brilliant idea, attack the most heavily tanked object in eve that sports titan level firepower with a fleet with zero tank.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2529
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 02:55:14 -
[268] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Grinding through an XL citadel without supers or dreads would be like tossing two battleships up against a dickstar POS.
It's surprisingly not btw. Obviously these numbers ignore defenders but 15 battleships can do each reinforce stage in 2 hours. Maybe 20 battleships if you go for lower DPS options. And by 'Battleships' I mean T1 Hulls with T2 fits and room left for tank. If you want to faction fit pirate BS, you can as much as halve that number and still be fitting tank.
Considering most of the dangerous weapons on them won't be mountable in highsec, that's not a particularly high bar to start from before defenders. You certainly can't just ignore an attacker and leave the HP wall to defeat them. You have to actually turn up to defend the structure yourself in some way even from a small attacking fleet. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16664
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 03:09:07 -
[269] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: Grinding through an XL citadel without supers or dreads would be like tossing two battleships up against a dickstar POS.
It's surprisingly not btw. Obviously these numbers ignore defenders but 15 battleships can do each reinforce stage in 2 hours. Maybe 20 battleships if you go for lower DPS options. And by 'Battleships' I mean T1 Hulls with T2 fits and room left for tank. If you want to faction fit pirate BS, you can as much as halve that number and still be fitting tank. Considering most of the dangerous weapons on them won't be mountable in highsec, that's not a particularly high bar to start from before defenders. You certainly can't just ignore an attacker and leave the HP wall to defeat them. You have to actually turn up to defend the structure yourself in some way even from a small attacking fleet.
These things will be armed with effectively citadel cruise missiles and have the damage output of a leviathan. My phoenix will vaporise anything from a bomber to a battleship, these structures will hit even harder. None of the highsec wardecers will have the manpower to take these things on.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2529
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 03:14:36 -
[270] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: These things will be armed with effectively citadel cruise missiles and have the damage output of a leviathan. My phoenix will vaporise anything from a bomber to a battleship, these structures will hit even harder. None of the highsec wanderers will have the manpower to take these things on.
Firstly, I'm pretty sure you are wrong with regards to the firepower being too much for high sec groups to take on since without the DD & AOE weapons they won't actually be as much of a threat. Yes there will be a high paper DPS number on them but it won't apply it without support. Highsec groups are also not as week and feeble as you would like to portray, and have plenty of draw on low & null groups also.
Secondly you are complaining about structures actually promoting the growth of larger groups in highsec. Seriously?
Just how easy do you want these structures to be to kill given that they CAN NOT avoid a war dec and are a 5 BILLION isk payout on just fittings and base materials drop (averaged) based on what CCP have said so far about them. And that's assuming no industry jobs are running of any sort. |
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