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Talsha Talamar
Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.10.27 11:09:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
An APOC with AWU5 and no fitting module or rig, cannot fit a rack of T1 Heavy Beam Lasers with a single LARII and a medium Capacitor Booster II...
Made some necessary corrections, looks much better now :)
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.27 11:26:00 -
[302]
/signed
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.10.27 11:35:00 -
[303]
Signed
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Kerdrak
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:52:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Talsha Talamar
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
An APOC with AWU5 and no fitting module or rig, cannot fit a rack of T1 Heavy Beam Lasers with a single LARII and a medium Capacitor Booster II...
Made some necessary corrections, looks much better now :)
QFT ________________________________________
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Ixzi
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:09:00 -
[305]
/signed
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:14:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Talsha Talamar
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
An APOC with AWU5 and no fitting module or rig, cannot fit a rack of T1 mega [edited] Beam Lasers with a single LARII and a medium Capacitor Booster II...
Made some necessary corrections, looks much better now :)
Oddly enough, a hyperion can't fit a full rack of 425s, LAR2 and med. cap booster 2, either.
Apoc (and many other amarr ships) needs a small PG boost, I've agreed with this on multiple occasions. Amarr dmg spread needs to be put more towards thermal on long ramge ammo, radio L should be 16/4 not 20/0 (I still have no clue why CCP thought it necessary to screw amarr on dmg type spread in the amarr nerf). But the fact remains that you guys are making stupid claims and suggesting completely unreasonable boosts.
Oh, and I'm sorry I'm not sorry that your mega pulses can't beat neut blasters at <7 km or that their tracking is worse. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Loli Killjoy
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Posted - 2007.10.27 19:17:00 -
[307]
signed
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Lord DeFault
Minmatar Satanic Red Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.10.27 19:22:00 -
[308]
Idiocy. I'm Mim/Gallente with no alts and I'm telling you to boast Amarr.
Any one tryed tanking Amarr Ships in a Rifter lately? lmao The PrePatch Day song |
Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.27 21:40:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Lord DeFault Idiocy. I'm Mim/Gallente with no alts and I'm telling you to boast Amarr.
Any one tryed tanking Amarr Ships in a Rifter lately? lmao
I agree, CCP needs to boost amarr, just so long as they listen to nothing said by Lyria, Nyxus, ect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Talsha Talamar
Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.10.27 22:30:00 -
[310]
Quote: Oddly enough, a hyperion can't fit a full rack of 425s, LAR2 and med. cap booster 2, either, and it's a tier 3. hyperion isn't underpowered (not even close), your specific argument is just stupid.
So your argument that the Hyperion can not fit a rack of the best long range hybrids, invalidates my point regarding the fact that the Apoc can not fit a rack of the second best long range laser ?
Fascinating Logic Captain.
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.27 22:59:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 27/10/2007 23:04:53
Originally by: Talsha Talamar
Quote: Oddly enough, a hyperion can't fit a full rack of 425s, LAR2 and med. cap booster 2, either, and it's a tier 3. hyperion isn't underpowered (not even close), your specific argument is just stupid.
So your argument that the Hyperion can not fit a rack of the best long range hybrids, invalidates my point regarding the fact that the Apoc can not fit a rack of the second best long range laser ?
Fascinating Logic Captain.
More or less: yes. mega beam is actually supposed to be along the same line as 425s/1400s, however amarr are a little weird with their weapons. The tachyon was supposed to be a "special" amarr thign that's 1/2 or 1/4 step above, but they are borked. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.10.27 23:19:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Originally by: Letifer Deus NO, the paladin doesn't need a friggin damage bonus. It does not, repeat, DOES NOT have any reason to do 95% of the turret damage a blasterthron does at 6km at 15km.
Why not? The Megathron/Kronos still has a sizable advantage in drones.
And if you really want to talk about longrange guns and tanking... fitting four tachyons the Paladin has 2025mw left, after four 425mm the Kronos has 4500mw left over, who do you think will end up with the better tank?
Since when has turret damage been balanced based upon respective drone bays?
Should Megapulse boats have their damage output cut to a 3rd because they have 3 times the range of Neutron blasters??
As was said earlier; it's a damn good job that game design isn't a democracy, or rather, based upon who can yell the loudest...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.27 23:36:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
Originally by: Letifer Deus NO, the paladin doesn't need a friggin damage bonus. It does not, repeat, DOES NOT have any reason to do 95% of the turret damage a blasterthron does at 6km at 15km.
Why not? The Megathron/Kronos still has a sizable advantage in drones.
And if you really want to talk about longrange guns and tanking... fitting four tachyons the Paladin has 2025mw left, after four 425mm the Kronos has 4500mw left over, who do you think will end up with the better tank?
Since when has turret damage been balanced based upon respective drone bays?
Should Megapulse boats have their damage output cut to a 3rd because they have 3 times the range of Neutron blasters??
As was said earlier; it's a damn good job that game design isn't a democracy, or rather, based upon who can yell the loudest...
First off Letifer Deus' post was in error. He was comparing a Mega to an Abaddon. When you compare same tier ships the damage difference is 15% or more (I posted about that earlier).
And while turret damage may not be based upon drone bays it is one of the reasons Gallente tend to pull out ahead so often. With their drones they often get effectively two PRIMARY weapon systems. We saw this with the Dominix. Since it had notable damage with its drones they could skip turrets entirely and fit Nos up top (till the Nos changes made that not a good idea any longer). Also note the Domi gets THREE bonuses to the ship but that is another rant.
I am not saying turrets should be balanced based upon drone bays but surely it must be taken into account when balancing a ship overall.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2007.10.28 02:55:00 -
[314]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 28/10/2007 02:59:15
Originally by: Kagura Nikon /Signed
But I would prefer them to CORRECT the dam ship, sicne is such a nice hull
Lets make this thread BIGGEr than the carrier one. Bring everyone you know that have Ammar BS to post here.
No, scrap the hull with the rest of the ship. It looks like an emaciated aardvark. and
/signed
But what is really needed is fixing the lasers, not really the ships. Reduce cap use on lasers, and pg requirements on all beams (except maybe dual heavys )
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Hastur DragonTooth
Amarr Call of Cthulhu
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Posted - 2007.10.28 04:58:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Lili Lu
No, scrap the hull with the rest of the ship. It looks like an emaciated aardvark. and /signed
Aardvark? I always thought it looked like a big power drill. Sort of how our dreadnought resembles a staple gun. Some of our other ships, I can't quite mention what they look like. At least not in mixed company.
Scientific test CCP ran to prove that EVE is heavily weighted in favor of Amarr, thus needing another nerf... |
Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:29:00 -
[316]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 28/10/2007 05:37:51
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
First off Letifer Deus' post was in error. He was comparing a Mega to an Abaddon. When you compare same tier ships the damage difference is 15% or more (I posted about that earlier).
I already explained why comparing mega and apoc on damage terms is stupid.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Also note the Domi gets THREE bonuses to the ship but that is another rant.
The domi 3 bonus rant is stupid. I dont know how long you've been in Eve, but ships used to field 2x as many drones as they do now, and domi had 5% turret dmg and +1 drone per lvl. When they decided to reduce drones to cut lag, they also changed domi from +1 drone per lvl to +10% hitpoints and dmg, because that is more or less the SAME THING as +1 drone was. Total drone damage and total drone HP stayed the exact same. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:56:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Letifer Deus
I already explained why comparing mega and apoc on damage terms is stupid.
Huh? You just get to cherry pick ships to best make your case with no regard for where they fall?
Fine...Arma approaches a Mega in DPS (still is less though). This ignores the fact that the Mega beats the Arma in pretty much every other department.
The Mega vs. the Arma has these other advantages (base ship, no fittings, assuming perfect skills for both): - Less Cap use - More Cap - Faster cap recharge (with only guns fitted/running the Arma is cap negative, Mega could shoot forever cap wise) - More hitpoints - More resistant to jamming - More agile - Faster under AB/MWD
Arma wins in: - Targetting time - Smaller sig
Hardly comparable
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.28 06:32:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Huh? You just get to cherry pick ships to best make your case with no regard for where they fall?
I said comparing the mega on DAMAGE TERMS was stupid. We were on the subject of dps. The apoc is NOT meant to be a high dps ship, so picking the apoc for a dps comparison is dumb.
Quote: Fine...Arma approaches a Mega in DPS (still is less though). This ignores the fact that the Mega beats the Arma in pretty much every other department.
The Mega vs. the Arma has these other advantages (base ship, no fittings, assuming perfect skills for both): - Less Cap use - More Cap - Faster cap recharge (with only guns fitted/running the Arma is cap negative, Mega could shoot forever cap wise) - More hitpoints - More resistant to jamming - More agile - Faster under AB/MWD
Arma wins in: - Targetting time - Smaller sig
Hardly comparable
Of course a MP arma has lower dps than a neut blasterthron. It has, as I have pointed out many times, 3.33x the optimal. Maybe compare mega beams to 425s on arma and thron? ~24% turret dmg advantage for the arma, and the mega only has a 1.2x optimal advantage.
less cap use - yep, you're right. Is someone denying this? more cap - yep, mega is a Tier2 and costs ~43% more. faster cap recharge - they have the same cap recharge. the cap on arma will run out with guns because of your first point. more hitpoints - um, duh? again, tier2, costs 43% more more resistant to jamming - yeah, this is a racial thing. you are worse in this becaues you are better with targeting time more agile - is it? ok. faster under ab/mwd - yep, see blasters.
hardly comparable - i picked arma because it is the dps ship between the amarr teir 1 and tier 2 BS, not because it was comparable on any of those other points (many of which are racial characteristics, and have nothing to do with the arma in particular). We were on the topic of dps comparisons. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:03:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Letifer Deus We were on the topic of dps comparisons.
Fine. Then on the point of DPS comparison only the Mega outdamages ALL Amarr ships period (sub-cap). As does the Hyperion. And if we include drones in the calculations (for all ships) the Dominix can beat them all too.
We're only comparing DPS though.
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Anhil
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:40:00 -
[320]
/Signed.
CCP - We're optimists, not masochists. The only reason we continue training Amarr ships is the belief that things will one day get better. (Well, also the ships are SHINY!!!)
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:50:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Fine. Then on the point of DPS comparison only the Mega outdamages ALL Amarr ships period (sub-cap). As does the Hyperion. And if we include drones in the calculations (for all ships) the Dominix can beat them all too.
We're only comparing DPS though.
Now you're just being difficult because you have no other argument left. Yep, blasters are the highest dps weapon. What's your point? You can't leave range completely out of dps comparisons (because range affects dps), or simply look at the short range weapon class. You know both of these and you know amarr are strong in both short range weapon optimal and long range weapon dps, but all you amarr whiners ever want to look at is short range dps and long range optimal. Iiiiiinteresting.
gallente active armor tank better, amarr are better passive tankers gallente have better dps with neuts, amarr have better range with pulses gallente have better range with rails, amarr have better dps with beams gallente are slightly harder to jam, amarr have slightly better lock times and so on, and so on
Amarr need a boost, there are a good number of things that need to be changed/tweaked, I'll be the first to admit that. I liked flying amarr, and I'd like to have a good reason to finish getting T2 energy weaps. trained up. I just can't stand the stupid arguments and outrageous boost suggestions some of you whiners make. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:27:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 28/10/2007 08:29:26
Originally by: Letifer Deus Now you're just being difficult because you have no other argument left. Yep, blasters are the highest dps weapon. What's your point? You can't leave range completely out of dps comparisons (because range affects dps), or simply look at the short range weapon class. You know both of these and you know amarr are strong in both short range weapon optimal and long range weapon dps, but all you amarr whiners ever want to look at is short range dps and long range optimal. Iiiiiinteresting.
Actually no. It is you who is being dodgy and changing course as your arguments fail.
You said: "I said comparing the mega on DAMAGE TERMS was stupid. We were on the subject of dps. The apoc is NOT meant to be a high dps ship, so picking the apoc for a dps comparison is dumb."
And...
"i picked arma because it is the dps ship between the amarr teir 1 and tier 2 BS, not because it was comparable on any of those other points (many of which are racial characteristics, and have nothing to do with the arma in particular). We were on the topic of dps comparisons."
So I went with your way (DPS comparisons) and then you switch back. Make up your mind but thanks for making my point for me.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:41:00 -
[323]
Get your own armageddon vs mega thread, this is an APOC thread!
APOC cannot tank any better than other BS, cannot damage , cannot outstadn in a fight cannot do ANYTHING better than other BSs.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Trind2222
Amarr Celestial Pillagers Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:34:00 -
[324]
/signed And make it a good ship....
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:56:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Letifer Deus I just can't stand the stupid arguments and outrageous boost suggestions some of you whiners make.
And I can't understand how you find it outrageous that we would like our Marauder to do the same damage as our Tier3 BS, something that the Kronos already does.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Yukisa
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Posted - 2007.10.28 12:24:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Letifer Deus I just can't stand the stupid arguments and outrageous boost suggestions some of you whiners make.
And I can't understand how you find it outrageous that we would like our Marauder to do the same damage as our Tier3 BS, something that the Kronos already does.
It does more dps than the tier3 hype with the extra drones and tracking. |
Cleron
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Posted - 2007.10.28 13:42:00 -
[327]
Talking about the flaws with lasers, and fixing Amarr as a hole is rather pointless since we have had MANY other threads that go into great detail about that, and CCP has yet to do anything major in regards to those issues. Chances are they won't any time soon, so lets just focus on getting SOMETHING a little better then what is currently planed for this ship. In regards to what people said about my ideas..
We need the -50% weapon cap bonus, because the other methods to counter high laser cap use are too imbalanced. Not having a cap bonus effectively neuters the ship right from the get go. As far as why I'd prefer an up front bonus, well it's pretty self explanatory. BS5 is not a short skill to train, and Marauder 5 will most likely be longer again. Until you get that ship skill to lvl 5 all Paladin users would be at a disadvantage, and i don't believe it's fair to punish us again when our ships already give up a bonus to counter the high cap usage of lasers.
On to the mission runners. While it's true these ships were "partly" designed with you guys in mind, there's bugger all chance any one will use the Pally (as it is, or is likely to be) for that purpose. From what I've seen these ships would only make it slightly less intensive in "collecting" loot, and most mission runners already use alt's to cover this aspect.
In terms of Isk an hour, you already have the best ships in EVE to chose from, so any ship able to run missions better then the "best" would need to be superior in both tracking, and damage. It was a pipe dream to expect better, so i would be in favour of giving the Paladin a 100% mining yield bonus over tractor speed/range. No point wasting that bonus on unhappy campers.
These ships will most likely field logistic, drone or Nos/Neut mods in addition to standard weapons, assuming they can actually fit more on. As such they will have a greater role to play then your average BS. Price will be a deciding factor though.
(For those who don't remember, with miner changes added) 50% Weapon Cap Reduction (Static full bonus up front) 20% Webber range (Per level) 10% Armor (Per level) 7.5% Armor Rep (Per Level)
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage Role bonus: 100% Mining laser yield
125Mbit 250m3 Drone bay
I can still dream ;) and uhh make it black will ya ? |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.28 15:03:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/10/2007 15:05:47 I have a hard time telling whether you are trolling, or seriously suggesting these idiocies, so please forgive me if you are just a troll
Originally by: Cleron
We need the -50% weapon cap bonus, because the other methods to counter high laser cap use are too imbalanced. Not having a cap bonus effectively neuters the ship right from the get go.
With only 4 guns, the laser cap bonus is completely superfluous. I run 3 Tachs and 5 Megabeams fine on an Abaddon without that bonus, so this ship should have no problems running 4 Tachys without it. You might not be repping and firing 24/7, but you don't need to.
Quote: As far as why I'd prefer an up front bonus, well it's pretty self explanatory. BS5 is not a short skill to train, and Marauder 5 will most likely be longer again. Until you get that ship skill to lvl 5 all Paladin users would be at a disadvantage, and i don't believe it's fair to punish us again when our ships already give up a bonus to counter the high cap usage of lasers.
Yeah, sure. Since you can fly a Paladin without BS 5 skill, we need a fixed bonus. Oh wait...
Quote: On to the mission runners. While it's true these ships were "partly" designed with you guys in mind, there's bugger all chance any one will use the Pally (as it is, or is likely to be) for that purpose. From what I've seen these ships would only make it slightly less intensive in "collecting" loot, and most mission runners already use alt's to cover this aspect.
In terms of Isk an hour, you already have the best ships in EVE to chose from, so any ship able to run missions better then the "best" would need to be superior in both tracking, and damage. It was a pipe dream to expect better, so i would be in favour of giving the Paladin a 100% mining yield bonus over tractor speed/range. No point wasting that bonus on unhappy campers.
The Kronos proves that it is NOT just a pipe dream to expect a better mission runner than the current ships. Just too bad the designers of the other three Marauders seem to know jack all about professional mission running... And changing it to make unhappy campers happy seems a lot more reasonable to me than changing it to cater to the need of clowns...
All the Pally needs to make most people happy is changing either web or cap bonus (my fave would be web since it is so useless for laser users)to damage.
As for the tractor bonus, it might be useful for putting all the cans into the same place, but for real loot/salvage in L4 missions, you WILL come back in a dedicated ship, seeing how these ships only have 3 spare slots, so a maximum of 2 salvagers, and you won't be fitting salvage tackles most likely, so with two unaugmented salvagers your salvaging will be very inefficient at best. Plus the cap use of tractors and salvagers will be unwelcome in the thickness of combat too. This bonus is really only practical in ratting and plexing.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Aya Otosaki
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.10.28 16:07:00 -
[329]
I think this thread will fail unless we got more sexy whiners. look at the carrier thread. 52 pages of big boys like mc, bob and stuff whinage and we get another carrier blog what the day after. If you really like amarr then join mc and then whine. ----- Ignorance is my strength. |
Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt
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Posted - 2007.10.28 17:14:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 28/10/2007 17:28:46
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Letifer Deus Now you're just being difficult because you have no other argument left. Yep, blasters are the highest dps weapon. What's your point? You can't leave range completely out of dps comparisons (because range affects dps), or simply look at the short range weapon class. You know both of these and you know amarr are strong in both short range weapon optimal and long range weapon dps, but all you amarr whiners ever want to look at is short range dps and long range optimal. Iiiiiinteresting.
Actually no. It is you who is being dodgy and changing course as your arguments fail.
You said: "I said comparing the mega on DAMAGE TERMS was stupid. We were on the subject of dps. The apoc is NOT meant to be a high dps ship, so picking the apoc for a dps comparison is dumb."
And...
"i picked arma because it is the dps ship between the amarr teir 1 and tier 2 BS, not because it was comparable on any of those other points (many of which are racial characteristics, and have nothing to do with the arma in particular). We were on the topic of dps comparisons."
So I went with your way (DPS comparisons) and then you switch back. Make up your mind but thanks for making my point for me.
How did I change course? Where did my argument fail? The apoc ISN'T meant to be a high DPS ship. Oh wait, you're right, cap capacity and energy turret cap usage bonuses just scream DPS ship. I merely responded to what you said. I said yes, blasters do more raw dps than pulse, imagine that. I said you can't leave optimal range out of damage comparisons or completely ignore the long range weapon class, which is exactly what you did. I responded to all the "fallings" of the arma you gave, which were basically either racial trends or tier 1 trends. Is the tier 1 arma supposed to have more cap and more hp than the tier 2 megathron, which costs 43% more? What is your point there?
All you've said so is that the highest dps ship is a blasterthron/hyp. And that is saying nothing but that blasterships are as intended. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
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