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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 47 post(s) |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:30:00 -
[871]
Ok I'm going to open the can of worms.
What's wrong with no moon minerals?
What's wrong with no POSes?
Simple easy solutions. |
rubico1337
Caldari nefarious badgers inc
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:39:00 -
[872]
Originally by: War Fairy Ok I'm going to open the can of worms.
What's wrong with no moon minerals?
What's wrong with no POSes?
Simple easy solutions.
nothing inherently bad with POSs, im all for it if they are small and controlled by small corps that dont try to OWN the space, the challenge is letting there be POSes AND making sure any alliance cant lock down several systems. its a balancing act
if there are POSes there should be lucrative moons too, to give the incentive to take such a logisitical risk |
permion
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:41:00 -
[873]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Okay. So it's 0.0 warfare pushed back a little bit in time.
Station hugging doesn't matter when you have POS. You don't camp gates, you camp a system. And the bigger alliances can then do it 24/7, locking down multiple systems of interest.
Then you come back and whine because there is no space for "the little buy."
There's atleast 1500 systems. Set up to be logistically difficult to get a large number of people through.
Then to make it even more difficult each of those systems are set up so that they have tendancies to behave in a certain ways(spawn highsec, lowsec, nulsec, W-sec). Then further tendancies for only living for X time and for X mass. I thourougly believe in CCP's ability to give us a few circles of hell for trying to colonize w-space.
I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a ***ch).
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Rumba Purring
Cute and Friends
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:48:00 -
[874]
Wow, this is crazy awesome.
Based on information released, some of w-space boundary conditions resemble those of other games many of us are familiar with and love, namely Homeworld and Starcraft.
Here's what could happen with a w-space system. An expedition group arrives at an empty system. The group consists of several industrials carrying control tower, refining array, assembly array, a ship maintenance bay, and lots of BPCs. Everyone else in the group fly frigates and cruisers because that's all the wormhole will allow through. After the expedition crosses wormhole, it is exhausted and collapses shut.
The first order of business is to anchor POS and modules, and start mining. First, you upgrade mining ships to improve flow of minerals. As economy gets better, you can start to build better and larger fighting ships, both for efficient ratting and protection.
Now 1 or more expedition groups can arrive any time while this is going on. You can either decide to fight them or join forces. This would be completely open. If you decide to fight, then what could ensue is a fighting game like that of Homeworld/Starcraft. The winner takes all, and the losers will have to self-destruct their pods to wake up back in medical clone back in k-space.
If you're successful, at some point, after harvesting enough riches from the w-space, you may want to return to k-space. As soon as a wormhole to a suitable return location has been found, the order is given to fly as many industrials filled with new world riches through the wormhole. My guess is that cargo will be more valuable than whatever you brought to the w-space or you built there. So the returning group may be all industrials and pods. You cay either decide to destroy all your w-space equipment or leave them for future discoverers of the system.
Your friends in k-space may be coordinating an operation to receive returning expedition group, since I'm sure there will be pirates looking to attack the returning industrials.
In any case, this is all speculation based on limited information released. We'll just have to wait until release and see if this is how it would play out. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:55:00 -
[875]
I've been doing some more thinking and reading the thread, and I'm still of the opinion that under the proposed mechanics, you'll get a Von Neumann runaway that will end up with all the best resources in the hands of the largest alliances (in other words, business as usual)
The key is logistics; the big alliances have much better logistics, simply because of their size. To give you a simple example, big alliances can preposition exploitation packages all over their territory (and highsec) that can be used to expand their footholds in W-space systems; this means that not only is a given wormhole more likely to be useful, but their exploitation response time is faster.
What this means is that even in a contested system, the alliance with better logistics will be able to import and build infrastructure faster. Whoever has the edge when all the POS's are built is the overwhelming favorite to destroy the enemy and totally dominate the system.
Having multiple layers of W-space (with the best resources never directly connecting to K-space) merely slows down this process, and in fact provides an overwhelming logistical superiority to those who control the lower layers.
If I were running a large alliance, I would be planning now to make a massive push into W-space, with logistics packages spread all over the place. I would sacrifice everything to this push, even accepting the loss of 0.0 territory during the initial gold-rush phase. 0.0 systems can always be won back; but fortified W-space systems are, under the proposed mechanics, pretty much invulnerable.
Of course, since every other large alliance can see the writing on the wall, they'll probably do the same thing, which means that peace will largely descend upon 0.0 for a short while...
Note also that if a layered approach to W-space is used, then after the initial colonization of W1 space, W-space will become hugely risky for anyone who is not in an alliance with substantial W1 holdings. Why? Because if you and a gang of your buddies find a wormhole to, say, a BOB-controlled W1 system, BOB's obvious response is to camp the wormhole and collapse it (assuming they have enough manpower, which, eventually, they will have). So you'll find yourself floating around in a hostile system, you won't be able to rat effectively, so no profit, and until you find a wormhole out, you're effectively trapped, and even after you do, you stand a good chance of finding yourself well behind enemy lines in 0.0.
There will be opportunities for small-gang ninja ratting and PvP, but that's basically the scraps; the risk/reward simply won't be there.
Unless there is something I am totally missing, allowing permanent infrastructure in W-space is just going to entrench the big alliances even more.
That said, if POS's were not permitted, but W-space had new types of asteroids that provided the rarer minerals (shattered moons, anyone?), that might provide the economic incentives while at the same time keeping the playing field relatively level, because the wormhole mass limitations would limit the size of a fleet that could enter to exploit a system. The big alliances would still have an edge, but it wouldn't be a permanent one.
Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures. |
Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:05:00 -
[876]
Hard to read 30 pages, but a small question (with a good possibility it having been asked before)
If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted?
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Kleb Siella
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:05:00 -
[877]
Originally by: permion
I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a ***ch).
Except that with what we know so far about the current system it's set up to almost completely favor a defender. I'm not saying that it's going to be particularily easy to do that, but this has been thrashed over so many times that I'm sick of it. Ultimately to me, it seems a huge underestimation of exactly how capable alot of the bigger alliances are at taking and holding space. It's not like they've had practice after all. That's enough for me, it's been going round in circles far too long as it is. |
Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:09:00 -
[878]
Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted?
It would still have a SystemID
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:16:00 -
[879]
Originally by: permion There's atleast 1500 systems. Set up to be logistically difficult to get a large number of people through.
Then to make it even more difficult each of those systems are set up so that they have tendancies to behave in a certain ways(spawn highsec, lowsec, nulsec, W-sec). Then further tendancies for only living for X time and for X mass. I thourougly believe in CCP's ability to give us a few circles of hell for trying to colonize w-space.
I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a ***ch).
I am not denying that it is difficult. But you also can't deny that a larger (possibly more organized as well) alliance will have an easier time overcoming the difficulties.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:17:00 -
[880]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 27/01/2009 22:59:39 I've been doing some more thinking and reading the thread, and I'm still of the opinion that under the proposed mechanics, you'll get a Von Neumann runaway that will end up with all the best resources in the hands of the largest alliances (in other words, business as usual)
Alliances can dominate 0.0 because there territory is permanently and predictably linked. Each system is mutually supporting to the next. An example being -
K1 < > K2 < > K3 : a blob in K1 can move rapidly to counter a threat in K2. Alternatively a alliance spread across all three systems can easily concentrate it force if any one system is threatend.
W-Space is different it will look much more like this:
?? < > W2 < > ??
At specific times the "??" systems might become known, but they wont necessarily link to a system where a given alliance can easily mass it force.
In order to pre-empt where the link to the "??" system might appear an alliance will have to spread its force quite thinly across (potentially) the entire EVE Cluster. And thats just to support one system.
Granted the large alliances could spread across W-Space, but they will still have isolated pockets W1 might link to W2 on one day, but to W506 system the next.
The Alliances, because of their pre eminence, have the 'best' chance of holding some W-Space systems, but they are at less of an advantage in comparison to their holding of .0 space because each system will lack mutual support from its neighbours.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:23:00 -
[881]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted?
It would still have a SystemID
It would be weird, no?
"I just got ganked in System 92747680285!!!111"
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:29:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted?
It would still have a SystemID
It would be weird, no?
"I just got ganked in System 92747680285!!!111"
Or more amusingly in corp chat...
"hostile fleet in system er...92747680285...get here quick!" "Huh? How do I get there?"
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Raymon James
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:32:00 -
[883]
Originally by: Pilk Edited by: Pilk on 27/01/2009 18:58:08 As the person who created this set of probe coverage bookmarks,
given the developers (especialy the Dbase developers) absolute HATRED of bookmarks (see the Warp to zero nerf) I think we now know why they changed the system!
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Ahro Thariori
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:34:00 -
[884]
one quick note to the POS-discussion: as long as "good" moons isnt the main riches of WH-space, death star POSs shouldn't matter. Especially if they are temporarily unoccupied (pilots offline or on logistics trips). Unlike 0.0 they dont pose a threat.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:43:00 -
[885]
I am as apprehensive about the scanning changes as I am excited by the wormhole thing. I spent a lot of time and effort honing my skill (not all book training) at scanning for exploration. The changes seem to me to be in the nature of dumbing down exploration... at least the part that requires real world skill.
The complexity is part of what drew me to exploration in the first place.
...and by the way, why do scanning probe (suddenly more like drones) have the ability to warp and my combat drone do not? (I don't mean fighters that are as big as ships)
Wormholes - yay; Exploration and ship scanning probes separate - to a degree that's the way it is now;
Parking in one place and warping your one size fits all probe out to location without the effort to arrange them ahead of time with bookmarks and sweat - sort of disappointing;
Useless BPÆs for different probe types - kind of disappointing.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:45:00 -
[886]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space.
That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.
does this mean that K-K wormholes are a possibility? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.27 23:49:00 -
[887]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
does this mean that K-K wormholes are a possibility?
Yes, it was said later on that it is. |
Platte Okeefe
Gallente Terminus Traders COOP
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Posted - 2009.01.28 00:04:00 -
[888]
Originally by: Cailais Alliances can dominate 0.0 because there territory is permanently and predictably linked. Each system is mutually supporting to the next. An example being -
K1 < > K2 < > K3 : a blob in K1 can move rapidly to counter a threat in K2. Alternatively a alliance spread across all three systems can easily concentrate it force if any one system is threatend.
W-Space is different it will look much more like this:
?? < > W2 < > ??
At specific times the "??" systems might become known, but they wont necessarily link to a system where a given alliance can easily mass it force.
In order to pre-empt where the link to the "??" system might appear an alliance will have to spread its force quite thinly across (potentially) the entire EVE Cluster. And thats just to support one system.
Granted the large alliances could spread across W-Space, but they will still have isolated pockets W1 might link to W2 on one day, but to W506 system the next.
The Alliances, because of their pre eminence, have the 'best' chance of holding some W-Space systems, but they are at less of an advantage in comparison to their holding of .0 space because each system will lack mutual support from its neighbours.
C.
A much more rational post except you forgot one half of the why it won't happen, because planning on any kind of resupply from known space is ludicrous with the number of new systems, and shifting worm holes, plus the likely hood that the exact type raw materials needed in the system you occupy wont be around long since the exploration sites spawn and despawn.
Maybe occupancy for a couple weeks, if you are lucky a month or two. But anybody who knows anything about POS logistics knows without a stable flow of logistics, long term viability is not there.
And lets say in 250 of those systems, the big alliances lock them down. Then just go look for another wormhole. Theres what 2250 systems left? ;) |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.28 00:07:00 -
[889]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 00:08:09
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow If I were running a large alliance, I would be planning now to make a massive push into W-space, with logistics packages spread all over the place. I would sacrifice everything to this push, even accepting the loss of 0.0 territory during the initial gold-rush phase. 0.0 systems can always be won back; but fortified W-space systems are, under the proposed mechanics, pretty much invulnerable.
You probably won't listen to me. But you should go ask the CEOs or these large alliances about a lot of your post here.
Large alliances mostly work due to a few people who are really good at leadership and motivation, as well as maybe 20 or so people actually doing work.
A large alliance works on the backs of a small group of people. So, a large alliances benefit is in its ability to field tons of ships. However, through wormholes this won't be a possibility. Thus, any group of 20 dedicated people are on equal footing.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Raneru
Euphoria Released Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.01.28 00:27:00 -
[890]
Originally by: Patty Loveless How I see the features: We being CCP.
- We will make the scanning system so easy, an (untrained) monkey can now find the exploration sites that used to take skill, creativity, experience, and time -- thoroughly collapsing the industry
- We will make it so isk farmers and everyone's ratting alt can just hope through a wormhole in their ishtar (drones means no ammo) and rat for the next 2 years in systems that may not even be reachable anymore
- We will make it so that potentially the most lucrative thing to do (rat in worm hole space for T3 components), will be one of the safest forms of ratting, with the only real downside being that you may need to wait a bit for a wormhold to open up, but in the mean time, RAT away!
- Scanning as it is isnt that skillful, I would argue that any untrained monkey can make safespots midwarp and warp to them. The changes hopefully mean spending more time exploring and less time on youtube while the scan timer counts down for the 50th time
- You are assuming that these npcs have a bounty. I think they won't, being so far from Empire.
- If they were to say drop parts for T3 production instead of have a bounty and everyone is doing it then the profitability will drop rapidly.
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Daryldutch
Caldari Relentless Storm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.01.28 00:55:00 -
[891]
There won't be a sovereignty status in the wormhole systems, I is to prevent building of motherships and even titans? And can you still anchor a system scanner array although you don't have the sovereignty? Also you said the AI will act more like pc's instead of npc's but does this mean they also pod and ransom?
greetings DD ------------------------- Some people wonder what insanity feels like, I wonder what sanity feels like. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:02:00 -
[892]
Quote: That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! YARRRR!!
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
please tell me these thing swill be easy to find. AKA not one every 6 systems, please tell me wormholes in general will be EVERYWHERE. Because that would be awesome if were talking 2500 W-space systems and THEN K-systems too! will this effect 0.0 space?
will you have massive 100 battleships can go through 0.0 K to 0.0 K space wormholes?
muhahahah :P
you don't actually have to answer just think about it!
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:04:00 -
[893]
Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this.
so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back.
Good point, hopefully ALL ships have a built in scanner that can be loaded with probes so we don't have to give up valuable high slots for probing space. Hell in RL tiny sail boats have radars and sonars to find fish and navigate in storms.
If this goes along with the old idea, which seems to still be coming, to move all belts to exploration, via the onboard scanner, then move all scaning to onbaord scanner but with the addition of different probe types.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:15:00 -
[894]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 28/01/2009 01:15:10
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Good point, hopefully ALL ships have a built in scanner that can be loaded with probes so we don't have to give up valuable high slots for probing space. Hell in RL tiny sail boats have radars and sonars to find fish and navigate in storms.
Where is the "versatility benefit" of fielding a ship with utility highs if good/useful utility modules get builtin so ships with a full rack of bonused weapons don't sacrifice anything for their better weaponload? |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:20:00 -
[895]
Originally by: Kayn Otar
We need some way to keep track of where we have been. If the systems don't have names, then we need to give them names. The only way to do that is with bookmarks.
If you don't want bookmarks, then give the systems names, or galactic coordinates, or ID numbers, or ... anything.
Not having names is pretty cool, initially. But eventually they will be given names, one way or another.
This is a good point, however, there is something else that could be done. Use the properties of the solar system to give them your own names. As I read it, the worm hole systems will be fixed in planets, star, etc. So a system with a blue star and 12 planets with an orange space background could be "B-12-O" ... there, i invented a naming convetion. CCP, do us a favor and add it for us, thanks ;) |
Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:24:00 -
[896]
So given that this space is completely removed from empire and concord doesn't have a window into it, does that mean that the rats there won't give bounties?
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.28 01:28:00 -
[897]
Originally by: Dal Deinvisu I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want.
Because...
a) Being able to live sustainably is not a pre-requisite for conflict. It's only a pre-requisite for alliance scale fleet/capitals/blobs stuff.
b) Being able to live sustainably results in diminishing opportunities for new comers, and reduced player movement in the long run. If players aren't moving around, they are largely unaffected by the dynamic wormhole travel mechanic. Find a good system, stay there forever!
c) Allowing it would be squandering an opportunity for an entirely different experience. The point of EVE is largely entertainment and fun, and a slightly different approach to the same experience isn't providing a breath of fresh air. From the described purpose of this feature, colonization and epic wars of conquest don't fit into the picture.
d) 1-way travel and unsustainable POS would still allow corps to run them for 6-12 months at a time. Short term infrastructure is literally unaffected by this - its the long term buildup of POS and players that is prevented.
Now I'm just rehashing what I've said already, but there's a couple reasons for you.
Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Seeing as it's nearly impossible to maintain a logistics chain to "deep" w-space (where the really good stuff is), I don't think the frontier would be in danger.
You're making extrapolations and assumptions that even if we have 2-way travel, these dark recesses of WH space will be untamed and unsettled just because they're connecting with EVE less frequently. You realize on one trip alone, an expedition of one Orca and a few industrials can bring enough fuel to live for almost 10 months.
The chance of direct 2-way K-system links could be 0.5% and it wouldn't be a show-stopper. If anything, its more security because a fleet has to basically roam WH space and stumble into you.
Now you answer why the ability to colonize every new frontier with permanent and sustainable infrastructure is necessary.
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Dal Deinvisu
Ventis Secundis
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Posted - 2009.01.28 02:10:00 -
[898]
I did not say necessary, but it does greatly expand risk/reward. Lose a ship or your pod and everything you've worked for is gone for good - no do-overs. It isn't as much trouble as you seem to assume to assault a lowly defended pos (which any worthwhile pos would be a target of); again, deathstars are just counter-productive to anyone's goals in w-space. The likelihood of surviving for 10 months in one system with hostile combat gangs constantly moving through is very low, moreso when you have to have 4-16 players linked together every time you want to move a single ship/resource in or out.
And remember, the alternative to POSes is just cloaking up and camping systems like that - no different except now you can't hit the hostile in system while they're not paying attention (and less risk/reward in general, but that's not what we're discussing).
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 02:16:00 -
[899]
Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance
At its root, an instance is a process, on a CPU, each solar system in eve is a process, on a cpu, sharing threads and memory space - it IS an instance of the so called "solar system node". Eve has lots ond lots of instances.
The main difference with Eve is, the instances are persistant and maintain persisteant links with other instances, represented in the game space by gates and soon worm holes. It is not an insult to say eve is "instanced". It is simply instanced differently than some other MMOs.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Zitus
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Posted - 2009.01.28 02:18:00 -
[900]
Congratulations! If you're reading this post, you either just posted or legitimately read the entire thread before posting.
I find it funny how many people are asking questions about worm holes when every thing is answered in the first few pages of posts. oh well.
fail posters are fail
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