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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:42:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Qutsemnie on 11/08/2004 05:45:11
I was having a conversation about interceptor insurance and I stumbled onto one of those thoughts that immediately seems right so I thought I would share.
An issue amoungst the community has been that interceptors dont insure for their price.
Thats not possible for reasons ill provide. Right now interceptor prices are dictated by classical price equilibrium. The key cost being opportunity cost of the ingredients involved and the effort of those able to make them.
Now one suggestion has been:
"Since interceptors cost me 6 million make the insurance payoff 6 million"
But that doesnt work.
Consider this extreme case to get your thoughts around why. Suppose for a second that interceptor insurance payed 20 million. How much are you willing to pay for an interceptor then?
AHA! And that my friends is why insurance cant possibly be raised to the price your paying. Before the insurance change the market found 6 million dollars worth of value to be the equilibrium price. Now add 4 million dollars in insurance value payoff to the total value of the item and where do you figure the equilibrium price ends up? Yes 10 million and your still out 6 million when you die.
As long as interceptors cant be produced easily then they will always be uninsurable. They currently have a value above and beyond the insurance value and that value HAS to get added to insurance payout when predicting the new equilibrium price.
The only way to make interceptors actually cost say 2 million to use after insurance is to make the choke points go away so demand can be met. Until that time comes or until demand is lowered you will never be able to just insure an interceptor for the full price that you payed.
Its interesting to note that there is a slight flaw in my analysis that is worth pondering. If tomorrow they make interceptors insure for 4 million profit then you almost certainly will be paying 4 extra million for your interceptors in very short time. HOWEVER that payoff will ultimately be largely passed on to those providing the scarce resources to make interceptors. That induces more people to produce interceptor components. Slightly relieving pressure in the longterm but also it will shift some of the community effort making other things more expensive.
Short version:
Insurance tomorrow isnt relief tomorrow.
Its an interesting game you got here my friends.
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:42:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Qutsemnie on 11/08/2004 05:45:11
I was having a conversation about interceptor insurance and I stumbled onto one of those thoughts that immediately seems right so I thought I would share.
An issue amoungst the community has been that interceptors dont insure for their price.
Thats not possible for reasons ill provide. Right now interceptor prices are dictated by classical price equilibrium. The key cost being opportunity cost of the ingredients involved and the effort of those able to make them.
Now one suggestion has been:
"Since interceptors cost me 6 million make the insurance payoff 6 million"
But that doesnt work.
Consider this extreme case to get your thoughts around why. Suppose for a second that interceptor insurance payed 20 million. How much are you willing to pay for an interceptor then?
AHA! And that my friends is why insurance cant possibly be raised to the price your paying. Before the insurance change the market found 6 million dollars worth of value to be the equilibrium price. Now add 4 million dollars in insurance value payoff to the total value of the item and where do you figure the equilibrium price ends up? Yes 10 million and your still out 6 million when you die.
As long as interceptors cant be produced easily then they will always be uninsurable. They currently have a value above and beyond the insurance value and that value HAS to get added to insurance payout when predicting the new equilibrium price.
The only way to make interceptors actually cost say 2 million to use after insurance is to make the choke points go away so demand can be met. Until that time comes or until demand is lowered you will never be able to just insure an interceptor for the full price that you payed.
Its interesting to note that there is a slight flaw in my analysis that is worth pondering. If tomorrow they make interceptors insure for 4 million profit then you almost certainly will be paying 4 extra million for your interceptors in very short time. HOWEVER that payoff will ultimately be largely passed on to those providing the scarce resources to make interceptors. That induces more people to produce interceptor components. Slightly relieving pressure in the longterm but also it will shift some of the community effort making other things more expensive.
Short version:
Insurance tomorrow isnt relief tomorrow.
Its an interesting game you got here my friends.
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Cen Varis
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:51:00 -
[3]
This is probably what CCP want for all T2 ships etc.
Thos players with the money to get T2 frigates, cruisers and battleships (whenever they come) will all face this problem - those T2 ships are so scarce that their price is much much greater than equivalent T1 ships.
so the older players will get bigger monetary hits for loosing the top of the line ships than newer players will get for loosing the "normal old" ships.
this is a way of letting the newer player catch up to the older players.
and a good idea i feel
money sinks are a GOOD thing.
Interstellat Cartographic League
- Cen Varis |
Cen Varis
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:51:00 -
[4]
This is probably what CCP want for all T2 ships etc.
Thos players with the money to get T2 frigates, cruisers and battleships (whenever they come) will all face this problem - those T2 ships are so scarce that their price is much much greater than equivalent T1 ships.
so the older players will get bigger monetary hits for loosing the top of the line ships than newer players will get for loosing the "normal old" ships.
this is a way of letting the newer player catch up to the older players.
and a good idea i feel
money sinks are a GOOD thing.
Interstellat Cartographic League
- Cen Varis |
Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:55:00 -
[5]
The money doesnt sink to much. The money isnt lost someone is sucking it up and it isnt npcs its players. Thats prolly also driving the prices.
And largely players networked,connected, and experienced. The same people buying them =)
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.08.11 05:55:00 -
[6]
The money doesnt sink to much. The money isnt lost someone is sucking it up and it isnt npcs its players. Thats prolly also driving the prices.
And largely players networked,connected, and experienced. The same people buying them =)
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Lev Arris
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Posted - 2004.08.11 14:50:00 -
[7]
Actually I think there is a problem
I havent ben able to insure my NPC-market badger for its base sale price (before taking loadout into account) and IIRC I have the same situation with my Osprey
Sure PC prices can result in an uninsurable situation but it looks to me [some of] the insurance prices need raising anyway
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Lev Arris
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Posted - 2004.08.11 14:50:00 -
[8]
Actually I think there is a problem
I havent ben able to insure my NPC-market badger for its base sale price (before taking loadout into account) and IIRC I have the same situation with my Osprey
Sure PC prices can result in an uninsurable situation but it looks to me [some of] the insurance prices need raising anyway
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:13:00 -
[9]
As I have posted in another forum, insurance of t2 items is next to impossible.
The prices can change by 100% in a week, and I am not kidding here.
There can be no way for the developers to guess the price of any construction component and therefore set the correct insurance.
Untill now all components have been known only to rise in price. Soon we will hit an extreme price on them that will cause demand to drop rapidly (can you say 20+m building costs on a crow?). I guess we'll have a small fall of component prices before we settle on their final prices.
But on the other hand, CCP is known to play around with the component drops (and that is something we need, more bpo's need more components), so we will never see that equilibrium.
As you can all understand it's impossible to make insurance without changing something dramatically. And if you ask me, I DON'T want to see insurance. We desperately need ISK sinks in this games and T2 is quite a good sink.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:13:00 -
[10]
As I have posted in another forum, insurance of t2 items is next to impossible.
The prices can change by 100% in a week, and I am not kidding here.
There can be no way for the developers to guess the price of any construction component and therefore set the correct insurance.
Untill now all components have been known only to rise in price. Soon we will hit an extreme price on them that will cause demand to drop rapidly (can you say 20+m building costs on a crow?). I guess we'll have a small fall of component prices before we settle on their final prices.
But on the other hand, CCP is known to play around with the component drops (and that is something we need, more bpo's need more components), so we will never see that equilibrium.
As you can all understand it's impossible to make insurance without changing something dramatically. And if you ask me, I DON'T want to see insurance. We desperately need ISK sinks in this games and T2 is quite a good sink.
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FuPhal
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:18:00 -
[11]
Trouble is not everyone needs these money sinks :/ some people dont play every day and dont make alot of cash so the money they do already have needs to last them.
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FuPhal
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:18:00 -
[12]
Trouble is not everyone needs these money sinks :/ some people dont play every day and dont make alot of cash so the money they do already have needs to last them.
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Moneta
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:18:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Qutsemnie
The money doesnt sink to much. The money isnt lost someone is sucking it up and it isnt npcs its players. Thats prolly also driving the prices.
And largely players networked,connected, and experienced. The same people buying them =)
Hmm, so where does the difference between 6 million I pay and 500K I get end up ? I can see that the 6 million end up somewhere, but if insurance owrked on these and i got back 6 million as well that would mean 5.5 million that remains in the game as opposed to it going out of the cycle now.
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Iv held back from posting on this thread for quite some time, but i think the time had come for me to come in and post.
Aneu
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Moneta
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Qutsemnie
The money doesnt sink to much. The money isnt lost someone is sucking it up and it isnt npcs its players. Thats prolly also driving the prices.
And largely players networked,connected, and experienced. The same people buying them =)
Hmm, so where does the difference between 6 million I pay and 500K I get end up ? I can see that the 6 million end up somewhere, but if insurance owrked on these and i got back 6 million as well that would mean 5.5 million that remains in the game as opposed to it going out of the cycle now.
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Iv held back from posting on this thread for quite some time, but i think the time had come for me to come in and post.
Aneu
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TGIF
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:26:00 -
[15]
You still have to make the basic investment, so your 20m shorter anyway.
Second: The time invested in flying an interceptor is allready an investment on its own, you spend 11 days on frigate 5, and 16 days in evasive man. 5. Thats 27 days you invest to fly a frigate sized ship, if that isnt reason enough to get a decent ensurance then i don't know why a battleship shouldn't cost you 100m every time you lose one. And cruiser should cost you 6mil. And so on...
Why would a ship who you train nearly a month for be any diffrent than a ship that is half that effective but costs 100x less and only takes 19 hours to train?
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Absinthe Fueled |
TGIF
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:26:00 -
[16]
You still have to make the basic investment, so your 20m shorter anyway.
Second: The time invested in flying an interceptor is allready an investment on its own, you spend 11 days on frigate 5, and 16 days in evasive man. 5. Thats 27 days you invest to fly a frigate sized ship, if that isnt reason enough to get a decent ensurance then i don't know why a battleship shouldn't cost you 100m every time you lose one. And cruiser should cost you 6mil. And so on...
Why would a ship who you train nearly a month for be any diffrent than a ship that is half that effective but costs 100x less and only takes 19 hours to train?
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Absinthe Fueled |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:27:00 -
[17]
Fuphal: Making 15mill isn't difficult. Losses have to hurt, fighting is already very pointless as ships are so easy to replace.
Also, what would be the point of money if players with not much money were able to buy everything. If you can't afford interceptors, fly normal frigs.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:27:00 -
[18]
Fuphal: Making 15mill isn't difficult. Losses have to hurt, fighting is already very pointless as ships are so easy to replace.
Also, what would be the point of money if players with not much money were able to buy everything. If you can't afford interceptors, fly normal frigs.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 11/08/2004 15:31:17
Quote:
Why would a ship who you train nearly a month for be any diffrent than a ship that is half that effective but costs 100x less and only takes 19 hours to train?
Because Tech 2 ships should be like a status symbol, showing to everyone that either you're too rich, or you've got some real ******* balls to be risking a prize like that
It's going to suck if you only lose like 50 million on a Tech 2 Apocalypse
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:29:00 -
[20]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 11/08/2004 15:31:17
Quote:
Why would a ship who you train nearly a month for be any diffrent than a ship that is half that effective but costs 100x less and only takes 19 hours to train?
Because Tech 2 ships should be like a status symbol, showing to everyone that either you're too rich, or you've got some real ******* balls to be risking a prize like that
It's going to suck if you only lose like 50 million on a Tech 2 Apocalypse
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:29:00 -
[21]
As mentioned in many threads about T2 Comps.. until CCP starts making the more readily available (drops, BPO, BPC, Convoy Hunting, etc.) all T2 Prices will do is rise...
Anyone buying a T2 Ship will have to accept the fact, that if they get ganked they are loosing money...so, bascially T2 will turn into those who have lots of money, and don't care, and those who have little and stay in secure space..trying to make more....
Adding more BPO to offset market prices, will not work at this time...due to actually just increasing DEMAND on T2 COMPS and raising their prices even more....
Only the COMPS can fix the situation on prices for T2 Items...
CCP needs to realize this and make some changes...and they don't even have to be drastic....just add more drops in Agent missions...or place Comps on the NPC market...at a slight inflated price...this would make player sales still possible but also place a "line in the sand" of how much they can sell for...
Just some thoughts on a annoying subject
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:29:00 -
[22]
As mentioned in many threads about T2 Comps.. until CCP starts making the more readily available (drops, BPO, BPC, Convoy Hunting, etc.) all T2 Prices will do is rise...
Anyone buying a T2 Ship will have to accept the fact, that if they get ganked they are loosing money...so, bascially T2 will turn into those who have lots of money, and don't care, and those who have little and stay in secure space..trying to make more....
Adding more BPO to offset market prices, will not work at this time...due to actually just increasing DEMAND on T2 COMPS and raising their prices even more....
Only the COMPS can fix the situation on prices for T2 Items...
CCP needs to realize this and make some changes...and they don't even have to be drastic....just add more drops in Agent missions...or place Comps on the NPC market...at a slight inflated price...this would make player sales still possible but also place a "line in the sand" of how much they can sell for...
Just some thoughts on a annoying subject
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:39:00 -
[23]
Its all about what you can afford. Not only isk but time as well.
If we all could afford to buy them and be happy with the risk who would use the normal frigats. Some player are wreckless and will not concider risk too much so worry not about the isk lost. Other are more conciderate of the pro's and con's and weigh up the risk. To change this would only reduce the diversity of the game.
Leave it alone and let the player who want to spend 15 mill on a supped up frigate spend it and the ones who don't just leave it be.
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:39:00 -
[24]
Its all about what you can afford. Not only isk but time as well.
If we all could afford to buy them and be happy with the risk who would use the normal frigats. Some player are wreckless and will not concider risk too much so worry not about the isk lost. Other are more conciderate of the pro's and con's and weigh up the risk. To change this would only reduce the diversity of the game.
Leave it alone and let the player who want to spend 15 mill on a supped up frigate spend it and the ones who don't just leave it be.
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Vladimir Illyvich
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:48:00 -
[25]
Short answer:
If you were running an insurance company, would YOU insure anyone for an interceptor?
Considering you lose money hand over fist anytime you actually have to pay out.
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Vladimir Illyvich
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:48:00 -
[26]
Short answer:
If you were running an insurance company, would YOU insure anyone for an interceptor?
Considering you lose money hand over fist anytime you actually have to pay out.
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Barth3zzzNL
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vladimir Illyvich
Short answer:
If you were running an insurance company, would YOU insure anyone for an interceptor?
Considering you lose money hand over fist anytime you actually have to pay out.
If you were running an insurance company, would you insure a 100 million ISK Battleship for only 30 mill?
If insurance can turn my 30 mill insurence fee into a 100 mill refund for my lost bs once a week then they sure as hell can get me decend insurance for my ceptor. 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Barth3zzzNL
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Posted - 2004.08.11 15:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vladimir Illyvich
Short answer:
If you were running an insurance company, would YOU insure anyone for an interceptor?
Considering you lose money hand over fist anytime you actually have to pay out.
If you were running an insurance company, would you insure a 100 million ISK Battleship for only 30 mill?
If insurance can turn my 30 mill insurence fee into a 100 mill refund for my lost bs once a week then they sure as hell can get me decend insurance for my ceptor.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
FuPhal
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Posted - 2004.08.11 16:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hellek
Fuphal: Making 15mill isn't difficult. Losses have to hurt, fighting is already very pointless as ships are so easy to replace.
Also, what would be the point of money if players with not much money were able to buy everything. If you can't afford interceptors, fly normal frigs.
Making 4-6 mil is even easier.... why are cruisers cheaper than puny interceptors?
Interceptors are fun and useful in their own way but theyre not worth more than cruisers :/
Ships are never easy to replace :P getting a new ship isnt all that hard but unless you have a hangar full of named and tech2 components then itll take a while ;)
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FuPhal
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Posted - 2004.08.11 16:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hellek
Fuphal: Making 15mill isn't difficult. Losses have to hurt, fighting is already very pointless as ships are so easy to replace.
Also, what would be the point of money if players with not much money were able to buy everything. If you can't afford interceptors, fly normal frigs.
Making 4-6 mil is even easier.... why are cruisers cheaper than puny interceptors?
Interceptors are fun and useful in their own way but theyre not worth more than cruisers :/
Ships are never easy to replace :P getting a new ship isnt all that hard but unless you have a hangar full of named and tech2 components then itll take a while ;)
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