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Darkside 34
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:05:00 -
[1]
I understand logging of when an enemy force would otherwise not catch you anyway, but the current state of people logging of in buffer tanked haulers/freighters at gates is stupid.
Let me outline a few stupid scenarios, where we are helped out by our best friends who's names wont be mentioned (serious love y'all).
We had just had a fight on gate, the carrier warped to the gate, carrier.....with 15minute aggro.....disconnects and warps to an e-safe. We scan him down, we tackle him, we start killing him. He warps back to station?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF? I assume what happened here is when he logged back in his client forced him to continue warping to where he was EVEN though he had a HIC pointing him.
A providence runs one of our camps by logging off, then logging of right after he logs on so he doesn't warp back to the gate. <- DOES THIS NOT SOUND LIKE AN EXPLOIT TO YOU?
And all the time we have buffer tanked haulers logging off right after they jump through gates so they don't have 15min aggro, and if they use the above "trick" its IMPOSSIBLE to catch them.
So, I propose a fix. Once you are agressed (someone is attacking you) then your ship will NOT dissapear until the hostiles STOP aggroing you. Your ship will continue to attempt to warp off to another safe, so if the hostiles have horrible tackle, its their bad luck.
This isn't a "nerf logging off" thread, its a "Fix logging off" and "stop the people from abusing logging off" thread.
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http://www.battleclinic. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:17:00 -
[2]
sounds like a whole lot of assumptions and a whine post.
And your solution is ridiculous....
Not Supported.
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CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
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Darkside 34
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:29:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Drake Draconis
sounds like a whole lot of assumptions and a whine post.
And your solution is ridiculous....
Not Supported.
Semi-whine, but I don't see any assumptions.
Propose a better solution, if It sounds good then Ill put it in the OP.
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http://www.battleclinic. |
Seran Kela
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Posted - 2009.02.28 18:10:00 -
[4]
Originally I'd support the following statement:
"Players should be 100% sure that their ships are safe when logging off"
Ways to accomplish that would be docking in station or logging at a safe spot/friendly POS.
However due to disconnects and socket closures it may not be 'fair'. Thus the compromise.
Fixing the double-log trick would definitely help, but ships, even when aggressed, need to disappear eventually.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.28 18:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/02/2009 18:15:32
OP: Then come up with a solution that makes sense.
What you currently propose would make interdiction pointless and alot of people would complain of being unable to log out all because of aggro.. never mind the shooting part.
Speaking of which... what happens if they disconnect due to internet access... and then you got a crapton of petitioners asking for there stuff back.
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CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
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Darkside 34
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.28 18:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/02/2009 18:15:32
OP: Then come up with a solution that makes sense.
What you currently propose would make interdiction pointless and alot of people would complain of being unable to log out all because of aggro.. never mind the shooting part.
Speaking of which... what happens if they disconnect due to internet access... and then you got a crapton of petitioners asking for there stuff back.
Ok, then how about using the "log off" or "quit game" buttons send a "special" packet to the server causing the logoff to be treated differently. Yes we will have people yanking the cord out of their walls, but at least its more trouble for them. And that means their alts will DC as well.
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http://www.battleclinic. |
Furb Killer
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Posted - 2009.02.28 18:34:00 -
[7]
Why would it make dictors pointless?
At least something needs to be done about people logging off right after jumping. And agro timers disapearing after jumping also shouldnt happen.
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Valerius
Ghetto Tech
Ghetto Security Services
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Posted - 2009.02.28 19:54:00 -
[8]
well they already fixed the timers getting killed after jumping. Atleast they dont reimburse for losses from it (yes, i jumped an ishtar warped to safespot and logged off due to RL, logged back in several hours later in high sec)
Anyways, claiming that people that lose connection during a fight should be able to save their asses with really valid, but how many times have YOU gotten a disco EXACTLY after jumping through a gate into an enemy camp?
Yes i agree those people that do lose their connection like that are wronged, but lets face it atm a lot more people are "exploiting" this humanitarian trait of CCPs then it actually helps.
So yeah, lets try and get these log-off tricks stopped! Make some constructive suggestions if you don't like the ones already posted, or come up with some critique points
___________________________
Bringing Lag to a place near you since 2004
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.28 20:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Valerius
Anyways, claiming that people that lose connection during a fight should be able to save their asses with really valid, but how many times have YOU gotten a disco EXACTLY after jumping through a gate into an enemy camp?
5 to 6 times... but not at a gate camp.
Living where I live... internet access is at best....random stability.
Point is you can't predict when...how..or where..
CCP cannot and will not be able to know the difference.
Trust me... TCP/IP dictates it that way... pain in the ass.
So yes... constructive suggestions are needed... but don't say crap such as "aggro locks them on the grid" type things... that's just stupid.
If you really want a balanced fix for the jump gate.
IF: Player drops off during jump... force them back to the previous system.
Else: they arrive right where they came in at.
Just like usual.
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CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Valerius
Ghetto Tech
Ghetto Security Services
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Posted - 2009.02.28 21:10:00 -
[10]
how about decreasing the time you stay in space to say, 20 seconds. And giving agro on ships that are attacked even if player is not logged in.
IMO it really is tough luck for people that get disconnected and ganked. It's part of the game that you die every so often, no matter how smart you play it, but people use all these "features" in a way they were NOT meant to be.
___________________________
Bringing Lag to a place near you since 2004
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Karentaki
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.28 22:11:00 -
[11]
Fully supported! Freighters should not be able to travel through lowsec with total impunity, and Ctrl+Q should not be a valid substitute for intelligence or skill. This is actually a really nice solution to the issue. Seriously, compare the number of times you log out of eve intentionally, to the number of times your internet dies or you otherwise lose connection. I meanw hat are the chances of someone actually losing connection moments after jumping through a gate, just in time to save their freighter from a large camp.
Anyway, if you made all modules stay online when you lose connection, that would allow people who are winning a fight when they CTD, to actually survive.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Zenethalos
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.28 23:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Zenethalos on 28/02/2009 23:52:59
This tactic is driving my corp and myself nuts. Our last contract against Kenzoku(bob) I think 3 freigters used this trick. They jumped in saw one of us at a gate CTRL Q'd and waited hours or even days to log back in. When they did they ctrl q'd again then logged back in putting them 1,000,000km away from the spot they got "dropped" at. We managed to catch one write up to follow next week in C&P if any one is interested. Not only that Kenzoku ships would fly blind into our scouts and ctrl q before any one could show up to gank them. Current record is 13'ish drops in a single day. Some of them were group drops where 2-3 would jump threw into a patrol and "drop" connection. And the best part is they would say By first or smack us with alts after they had logged. Mechanics need to change as it stands if you are buffer tanked and caught at a gate as long as you are cloaked ctrl q and just hope the fleet doesnt have the dps to gank you.
As too the issue of mass petitions as it stands if you do lose a ship due to a DC which has happened to me a few times with the pesky socket closed eror there is not enough evidence to reimburse the ship.
:edit: Spelling
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2009.03.01 02:24:00 -
[13]
simple and easy, make them warp back into the spot where they was before warp (so no matter how many times you log of you will end at that gate again.
can't do anything more without having the huge possibillity of people dc'ing being F'ed
I declare war on stupidity |
letni Smith
Haunted House
BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 04:43:00 -
[14]
Signed... needs to be fixed.. more so now that probes are changing so you will be nolonger able to quickly probe out someone who has logged off...
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.01 07:49:00 -
[15]
Eh, not supported. I personally have issues with the client crashing randomly, thus making my ship vulnerable until I can get the client booted back up. This is just asking for trouble.
-----------------------------------
"What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.03.01 21:59:00 -
[16]
so this is a solution for gate camps in low sec???
Lets say I enter 0.4 and see a gate camp. I log off inmediately, and then..... wut happens???
im really interested on avoiding griefers ruining my gaming experience.
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Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.02 01:41:00 -
[17]
If you ctrl q under cloak the aggressing party has 30 seconds to kill your ship. If they have a point on your ship it just disapears.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.03.02 03:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Valerius
well they already fixed the timers getting killed after jumping. Atleast they dont reimburse for losses from it (yes, i jumped an ishtar warped to safespot and logged off due to RL, logged back in several hours later in high sec)
Anyways, claiming that people that lose connection during a fight should be able to save their asses with really valid, but how many times have YOU gotten a disco EXACTLY after jumping through a gate into an enemy camp?
Yes i agree those people that do lose their connection like that are wronged, but lets face it atm a lot more people are "exploiting" this humanitarian trait of CCPs then it actually helps.
So yeah, lets try and get these log-off tricks stopped! Make some constructive suggestions if you don't like the ones already posted, or come up with some critique points
Oh they fixed that? well that helps somewhat. but when camping a highsec-lowsec point that doesn't help much.
I try to not jump into hostile camps. but I can't say I have disconnected right after gate jumping often. usually disconnect mid combat, and that really sucks, as they have 15 mins to find me, or even 15 mins to kill me as they have me pointed.
I support that log off tactics need to be looked at.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:18:00 -
[19]
I think the real issue is the double logging that makes ships not return to their original location. And that should really be adressed.
CEO | Diary of a pod pilot |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:05:00 -
[20]
The upcoming Tribune article should be required reading for anyone who has any influence to bring to bear on the log off abuse issue.
---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.04 07:27:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Zenethalos on 04/03/2009 07:28:55
Edited by: Zenethalos on 04/03/2009 07:28:25
Edited by: Zenethalos on 04/03/2009 07:27:21
Found a post under warfare and tactics area of the forums where multiple freighter pilots openly admit this tactic. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1002892
If this doesn't sound like and exploit...
:EDIT: forgot to link
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Erichk Knaar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 06:51:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 06/03/2009 06:51:58
Signed.
If you did not take the adequate precautions and got your freighter into a situation where it will die, you should pay the price.
As it is, people would rather do this, than use scouts or escorts, in order to move under war dec or through hostile territory with near impunity. We can beat this with tactics, but its ridiculous, and very much against the spirit of Eve, imo.
At the very least, increase the logout timer to 60 seconds. This would still save many, many discos, but would allow those that do it to cheat be punished.
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Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 06:52:00 -
[23]
Supported.
To clarify: I support extending the dissappear timer when a person is being aggressed.
e.g. take these situations as an example as a pilot loses connection after jumping through a gate.
1) He is not aggressed as his ship aligns and enters emergency warp, and is not aggressed once it is "safe". His ship dissappears 30 seconds from when his connection was lost.
2) He is initially aggressed on the gate as he aligns for emergency warp, but his aggressors lack a warp scrambler or disruptor and he enters emergency warp regardless. His ship dissappears 30 seconds from the last time he was aggressed.
3) He is aggressed, and tackled on the gate. His ship is now at the mercy of his aggressors.
The same should be true for pilots that have been involved in aggression before logging off.
1) Player aggressors stop aggressing, and player logs off. He is not further aggressed and his ship dissappears after 15 minutes.
2) Players aggressors stop aggressing, and player logs off. He is scanned down and further aggressed. His ship is at the mercy of his aggressors.
3) Player loses connection in the middle of a fight. His ship is at the mercy of his aggressors.
I think that's probably the best way of fixing it.
You take a risk when you undock a ship, and while
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Xoria Krint
North Star Networks
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:43:00 -
[24]
Fix this!
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.06 15:46:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 06/03/2009 15:46:15
Quote:
I understand logging of when an enemy force would otherwise not catch you anyway, but the current state of people logging of in buffer tanked haulers/freighters at gates is stupid.
LRN2Scramble?
LRN2Bubble?
LRN2Probe?
Quote:
We had just had a fight on gate, the carrier warped to the gate, carrier.....with 15minute aggro.....disconnects and warps to an e-safe.
So you didnt have him scramed or bubbled... and he could have warped anytime?
Quote:
We scan him down, we tackle him, we start killing him. He warps back to station?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF?
LRN2Scramble? or LULZ stabbed carrier? LRN2HICTOR.
Quote:
I assume what happened here is when he logged back in his client forced him to continue warping to where he was EVEN though he had a HIC pointing him.
Impossible. You cannot warp if pointed by a hic.
Quote:
A providence runs one of our camps by logging off, then logging of right after he logs on so he doesn't warp back to the gate. <- DOES THIS NOT SOUND LIKE AN EXPLOIT TO YOU?
Lrn2scamble?
Lrn2bubble?
Quote:
And all the time we have buffer tanked haulers logging off right after they jump through gates so they don't have 15min aggro, and if they use the above "trick" its IMPOSSIBLE to catch them.
Lrn2scamble?
Lrn2bubble?
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.07 20:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 06/03/2009 15:46:15
Quote:
I understand logging of when an enemy force would otherwise not catch you anyway, but the current state of people logging of in buffer tanked haulers/freighters at gates is stupid.
LRN2Scramble?
LRN2Bubble?
LRN2Probe?
Quote:
We had just had a fight on gate, the carrier warped to the gate, carrier.....with 15minute aggro.....disconnects and warps to an e-safe.
So you didnt have him scramed or bubbled... and he could have warped anytime?
Quote:
We scan him down, we tackle him, we start killing him. He warps back to station?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF?
LRN2Scramble? or LULZ stabbed carrier? LRN2HICTOR.
Quote:
I assume what happened here is when he logged back in his client forced him to continue warping to where he was EVEN though he had a HIC pointing him.
Impossible. You cannot warp if pointed by a hic.
Quote:
A providence runs one of our camps by logging off, then logging of right after he logs on so he doesn't warp back to the gate. <- DOES THIS NOT SOUND LIKE AN EXPLOIT TO YOU?
Lrn2scamble?
Lrn2bubble?
Quote:
And all the time we have buffer tanked haulers logging off right after they jump through gates so they don't have 15min aggro, and if they use the above "trick" its IMPOSSIBLE to catch them.
Lrn2scamble?
Lrn2bubble?
You are an idiot. Do you even play this game? Go back to WoW. If a freighter/any other ship jumps into a system and see's a giant camp all they have to do is CTRL Q and all you have to do is have a large enough buffer to last circa 30 seconds before your ship disapears. So say the target is bubbled, infin-point and has 40 more points of scram on him his ship simply dissapears, poof gone. As long as they have not been shot before or not shot at any one before they CTRL Q they dissapear. This is CCP's way of helping to protect the people that get randrom drops or have an unstable connection. At which point if your connection is untable use a damn scout ask a friend. Again last night we had another hauler try this exact thing. Too bad for him his mammoth did not have the tank for 10 bs plus support. CCP needs to stop being so damn nice it just facilitates the means to exploit.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.07 20:48:00 -
[27]
Once again, the problem is not being able to point, bubble, scram, whatever. The problem is this:
IF THE PLAYER LOGS OUT BEFORE AGGRESSION HAS OCCURED BY BEING HIT WITH A HOSTILE MODULE OR BY ENGAGING IN A HOSTILE ACT, THEY VANISH IN 30 SECONDS REGARDLESS OF ANY OTHER CONDITIONS.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Aethrwolf
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Posted - 2009.03.08 05:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Agent Unknown
Eh, not supported. I personally have issues with the client crashing randomly, thus making my ship vulnerable until I can get the client booted back up. This is just asking for trouble.
what kind of crash? just client or client making your system crash.. had an issue recently with the client crashing my laptop randomly.. had to uninstall and reinstall.. hasnt crashed since..
hard to fix but should be looked into.. supported
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I like'cake
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Posted - 2009.03.09 05:14:00 -
[29]
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:48:00 -
[30]
I know that there's enough people irked at this exploit being abused so much and that there are some relatively simple changes that would make it less abusable.
My personal favorite is the "login timer", which would be like a reverse aggro timer.
1) If you log in in space (and only if you log in in space) your ship must remain for a minimum of 5 minutes, during which time it can be aggroed regardless of whether you are connected or not.
2) For the 30 second timer after disconnect, you are vulnerable to aggro mechanics.
3) After logging out, your warpin point never moves until you have actually completed a warp back to it, regardless of how many times you log out.
That would mean that anyone who logged in, then logged out to move their warpin would be vulnerable to being probed out and aggroed within 5 minutes, and would take the logoffski==safe brigade and cut them off at the knees.
It would also mean that those who logoff under gatecloak (or after hitting the jump button) would be able to be tagged with aggro without having to resort to silliness like an AOE weapon on a covert ops.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2009.03.11 00:02:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I know that there's enough people irked at this exploit being abused so much and that there are some relatively simple changes that would make it less abusable.
My personal favorite is the "login timer", which would be like a reverse aggro timer.
1) If you log in in space (and only if you log in in space) your ship must remain for a minimum of 5 minutes, during which time it can be aggroed regardless of whether you are connected or not.
2) For the 30 second timer after disconnect, you are vulnerable to aggro mechanics.
3) After logging out, your warpin point never moves until you have actually completed a warp back to it, regardless of how many times you log out.
That would mean that anyone who logged in, then logged out to move their warpin would be vulnerable to being probed out and aggroed within 5 minutes, and would take the logoffski==safe brigade and cut them off at the knees.
It would also mean that those who logoff under gatecloak (or after hitting the jump button) would be able to be tagged with aggro without having to resort to silliness like an AOE weapon on a covert ops.
This looks like a good solution to this issue.
On the whole support this idea, what people who keep posting against this complaint don't seem to realise is that this is a get out of jail free card for freighters, orcas and little more (most BS's won't survive a couple of BS's shooting them) - and it's specifically abused by those industrial ships and little else. If you're bouncing about in lowsec in a cruiser and you disconnect when you jump into a camp, you're going to die with or without a fix to this problem, so the average player will see no difference to their gameplay at all.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.03.11 00:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ospie
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I know that there's enough people irked at this exploit being abused so much and that there are some relatively simple changes that would make it less abusable.
My personal favorite is the "login timer", which would be like a reverse aggro timer.
1) If you log in in space (and only if you log in in space) your ship must remain for a minimum of 5 minutes, during which time it can be aggroed regardless of whether you are connected or not.
2) For the 30 second timer after disconnect, you are vulnerable to aggro mechanics.
3) After logging out, your warpin point never moves until you have actually completed a warp back to it, regardless of how many times you log out.
That would mean that anyone who logged in, then logged out to move their warpin would be vulnerable to being probed out and aggroed within 5 minutes, and would take the logoffski==safe brigade and cut them off at the knees.
It would also mean that those who logoff under gatecloak (or after hitting the jump button) would be able to be tagged with aggro without having to resort to silliness like an AOE weapon on a covert ops.
This looks like a good solution to this issue.
On the whole support this idea, what people who keep posting against this complaint don't seem to realise is that this is a get out of jail free card for freighters, orcas and little more (most BS's won't survive a couple of BS's shooting them) - and it's specifically abused by those industrial ships and little else. If you're bouncing about in lowsec in a cruiser and you disconnect when you jump into a camp, you're going to die with or without a fix to this problem, so the average player will see no difference to their gameplay at all.
That's a terrible solution. Not everyone plays the same way. I fly with a nomadic group in deep 0.0 space. We are often more than 15-20 hostile jumps from any place we can dock. We log out in space every day - because we rarely dock. It is not acceptable for ships to float around for 5 minutes after a player logs out or loses connection.
For some pilots that would be the equivalent of - "When you log out in a station your ship is ejected into space and sits there for 5 minutes."
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 01:01:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Zenethalos on 11/03/2009 01:03:19
I agree sitting there for five minutes after you log is not a great solution (sry jimer). Someone suggested a special packet be sent for a ctrl q or an esc -> quit be sent to the server to let them know they quit the game. That said the ship should be vulnerable to 30 seconds after the exit meaning even though they are not in game you can stil agro the ship with a direct fire weapon giving it a 15minute timer as it would normally if you were shot then logged out. It's not a concrete solution as a person can just unplug the motem/turn off their pc but its still better then nothing.
Or just simply you can be agro'd for the first 30seconds after any type of exit/DC. As it stands if you DC after a jump your dead any ways if your in a BS/sub BS most of the time. We were able to take down an abaddon that "dropped" right after saying bi in local with only 5 recons/hacs so.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 18:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Ospie
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I know that there's enough people irked at this exploit being abused so much and that there are some relatively simple changes that would make it less abusable.
My personal favorite is the "login timer", which would be like a reverse aggro timer.
1) If you log in in space (and only if you log in in space) your ship must remain for a minimum of 5 minutes, during which time it can be aggroed regardless of whether you are connected or not.
2) For the 30 second timer after disconnect, you are vulnerable to aggro mechanics.
3) After logging out, your warpin point never moves until you have actually completed a warp back to it, regardless of how many times you log out.
That would mean that anyone who logged in, then logged out to move their warpin would be vulnerable to being probed out and aggroed within 5 minutes, and would take the logoffski==safe brigade and cut them off at the knees.
It would also mean that those who logoff under gatecloak (or after hitting the jump button) would be able to be tagged with aggro without having to resort to silliness like an AOE weapon on a covert ops.
This looks like a good solution to this issue.
On the whole support this idea, what people who keep posting against this complaint don't seem to realise is that this is a get out of jail free card for freighters, orcas and little more (most BS's won't survive a couple of BS's shooting them) - and it's specifically abused by those industrial ships and little else. If you're bouncing about in lowsec in a cruiser and you disconnect when you jump into a camp, you're going to die with or without a fix to this problem, so the average player will see no difference to their gameplay at all.
That's a terrible solution. Not everyone plays the same way. I fly with a nomadic group in deep 0.0 space. We are often more than 15-20 hostile jumps from any place we can dock. We log out in space every day - because we rarely dock. It is not acceptable for ships to float around for 5 minutes after a player logs out or loses connection.
For some pilots that would be the equivalent of - "When you log out in a station your ship is ejected into space and sits there for 5 minutes."
No, you misread what I said. The five minutes applies ONLY from the time of login and ONLY if you log in in space.
Meaning that if you log in, stay for more than 5 minutes, then log out- you still vanish in 30 seconds. If you log out after 3 minutes, you stay in space for 2 minutes.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 18:46:00 -
[35]
Reiterating, because I obviously wasn't clear enough:
* The 5 minute timer applies ONLY to login and ONLY if you log in in space.
* If you stay for more than five minutes, there is no timer other than the current one.
So for those who log out in space with no aggro after doing their regular play session for hours, nothing changes.
All it means is that you can't log in and out to check local or move your warpin, because you're around for five minutes if you do. If you're not exploiting login mechanics, you're fine.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
EdFromHumanResources
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:06:00 -
[36]
Wow you said you were going to post a thread about me ctrl Qing I cant believe you actually did it. But hey there are more whine threads about this than pos warfare so sure ill support it because it'll never happen.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 04:58:00 -
[37]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Wow you said you were going to post a thread about me ctrl Qing I cant believe you actually did it. But hey there are more whine threads about this than pos warfare so sure ill support it because it'll never happen.
You're probably right. It seems CCP is more concerned with carebears having their way and ensuring their security, that and stupid pilots. All these people complain that they dont have a stable connection and its not fair. Whats not fair is that for every 1 person with a faulty connection there are 5 asshats exploiting that saying they dropped. |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zenethalos
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Wow you said you were going to post a thread about me ctrl Qing I cant believe you actually did it. But hey there are more whine threads about this than pos warfare so sure ill support it because it'll never happen.
You're probably right. It seems CCP is more concerned with carebears having their way and ensuring their security, that and stupid pilots. All these people complain that they dont have a stable connection and its not fair. Whats not fair is that for every 1 person with a faulty connection there are 5 asshats exploiting that saying they dropped.
Sup I Ctrl Q'ed to save the 15b in my freighter. What category do I fit in?
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
|
Shade Millith
International House of PWNCakes
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.03.16 22:21:00 -
[39]
I'm gonna bump this.
Just had a AAA freighter vanish while in hull.
For every 2 people that actually has a propper disconnect, you have entire fleets logging off to avoid combat. This is a bad mechanic. Fix it
--------------------------------------------
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Arpad Elo
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 00:44:00 -
[40]
not sure if I've supported this yet, but I do.
I'd like to see aggro prevent people from vanishing regardless of whether or not they're currently logged in.
|
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 18:54:00 -
[41]
So, exactly what does it take to get CSM attention to this matter?
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.17 19:03:00 -
[42]
regarding OP's scenario, sounds like some kind of desync problem - I noticed a lot more of those since last big patch
I do support rewriting of logoff mechanics - to make them more favorable to PvPer. It gets pretty bad right now with some of the tricks people pull, like:
*) loging off, then logging in a minute later and immediately log off again, then log in again and warp to a safe point instead of the original place of log off
*) in some cases, log off makes ship invulnerable to lock
*) people jumping into systems and logging off at same time - gives attackers only 30 second window to destroy them
*) people logging off as soon as they see that they are about to get tackled, thus by-passing the aggro timer by a couple seconds, giving attackers just 1 minute to destroy them (if they don't get hit by the invulnerable to lock bug)
The most important change, in my opinion, is to make it so people can get aggro timer during the 1 minute their ship remains in space without aggro. Basically - if anyone shoots a ship, it gets aggro, doesn't matter if the char is logged in or not.
This would have most significant impact on people who abuse log off mechanics to save ships, while having little negative impact on people who have real connection problems.
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irion felpamy
HellJumpers Corp
United For 0rder
|
Posted - 2009.03.18 12:20:00 -
[43]
To easy to abuse current system. seen it done, don't want to see it again.
|
Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
|
Posted - 2009.03.18 22:59:00 -
[44]
I agree the system can be abused too easily, and we should consider alternatives.
BUT,
I don't see a proposal here that protects players who honest-to-god involuntarily disconnect at the worst possible moment due to a network failure, wifi disconnect, client crash, or a power outage. These things do happen occasionally (wifi disconnects happen to me from time to time, and a year ago the Macintosh client that I run crashed with irritating regularity) and players should not be punishable in those types of situations.
Sorry, not supported.
---------------------------------
Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains. |
irion felpamy
Minmatar
HellJumpers Corp
United For 0rder
|
Posted - 2009.03.19 09:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville
I agree the system can be abused too easily, and we should consider alternatives.
BUT,
I don't see a proposal here that protects players who honest-to-god involuntarily disconnect at the worst possible moment due to a network failure, wifi disconnect, client crash, or a power outage. These things do happen occasionally (wifi disconnects happen to me from time to time, and a year ago the Macintosh client that I run crashed with irritating regularity) and players should not be punishable in those types of situations.
Sorry, not supported.
Then you e-warp out, difference is if you are pointed when you disconnect you don't dissapear.
How about we give you a little flag you can set so if you are worried about a GPU overheating, PC crashing or your neighbour finaly securing his wifi connection and disconnecting you. Every downtime CCP replaces all the ships and implants you lost while it was set. 100% effective, never lose a ship to a discon ever again.
|
Shade Millith
International House of PWNCakes
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.03.19 11:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville
I agree the system can be abused too easily, and we should consider alternatives.
BUT,
I don't see a proposal here that protects players who honest-to-god involuntarily disconnect at the worst possible moment due to a network failure, wifi disconnect, client crash, or a power outage. These things do happen occasionally (wifi disconnects happen to me from time to time, and a year ago the Macintosh client that I run crashed with irritating regularity) and players should not be punishable in those types of situations.
Sorry, not supported.
Then make is so if your shot at any time you recive the 15 min vanish timer.
The problem here is that while you have a legitimate problem, entire fleets are logging off when they don't like the odds
--------------------------------------------
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.03.19 19:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville
I agree the system can be abused too easily, and we should consider alternatives.
BUT,
I don't see a proposal here that protects players who honest-to-god involuntarily disconnect at the worst possible moment due to a network failure, wifi disconnect, client crash, or a power outage. These things do happen occasionally (wifi disconnects happen to me from time to time, and a year ago the Macintosh client that I run crashed with irritating regularity) and players should not be punishable in those types of situations.
Sorry, not supported.
If you had looked at my idea, people who have that kind of problem wouldn't be affected, unless it happened within 5 minutes of login. As it stands now, if you get aggro, then disconnect, you're stuck for 15 minutes anyway.
the fact is that it only protects exploiters and abusers of a bad game mechanic to leave it as it is. No viable justification has yet been offered. The "Some people have legit disconnects" argument fails because of the rarity of the event, coupled with the fact that a legit disconnect already has the 30 second protection in that you vanish utterly unless you've been aggressed.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Nicholas DW
Invicta.
Advocated Destruction
|
Posted - 2009.03.23 09:02:00 -
[48]
I can really only see more nerfs to PVP coming with future patches, fixing this exploit would be counter productive to that process and as such CCP isn't going to fix this issue.
Keep fighting the good fight, but it's a waste of time.
|
Gaogan
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.03.23 19:20:00 -
[49]
If you actually get disconnected at the wrong time what the hell makes you think you should be 100% safe? If you disconnect in a level 4 mission while rats have you scrambled, do you log back on in a pod? If you disconnect while trying to solo a hac in a t1 frig, do you survive? Then why should you be safe if you disconnect when you jump into a gate camp, or at a ss while the guys you just took pot shots at are probing you out? **** happens. If you really disconnect and get killed, too bad, suck it up.
The following needs changed desperately to put a stop to entire fleets logging off, and the 3 @#%!wads that have been hanging around our space all week, logging on, ganking someone, and logging off with total impunity, and other such ******ation.
1) No ship should EVER, EVER EVER vanish while it is locked, scrambled, and being fired on. EVER.
2) Fix the log on and immediate log off/on again exploit to avoid coming back to where you initially logged off.
3) Fix the jump clears aggression timer exploit ( yes, it still works )
4) Increase the non aggro vanish timer from 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Why? Every other game balances log off timers to prevent you from getting away if an enemy is close to catching you if you had not logged off anyhow. Even without aggro you should stick around just long enough for an accomplished prober who is already looking for you to find you. If they were hot on your tail and you tried to ditch, you should be toast.
5) Like every other mmo, when you quit the logoff countdown should start, and you should be able to sit there while your ship is waiting to vanish at the safe spot. If you get attacked then the logoff is aborted and you can defend yourself, if not, then the client closes when your ship vanishes and you know you will be safe until you log on again.
|
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.23 22:30:00 -
[50]
Quote:
1) No ship should EVER, EVER EVER vanish while it is locked, scrambled, and being fired on. EVER.
This is the first, most basic thing that needs to be done. I don't see how that would be "too much work" for CCP, so that shouldn't be an excuse
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Hel's Advocat
|
Posted - 2009.03.23 23:58:00 -
[51]
yeah no **** we need that!
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Wildeboer
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 06:19:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Wildeboer on 24/03/2009 06:19:28
Please CCP fix this !
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4ndromed4
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 07:30:00 -
[53]
I really support this. I mean the current system is just absued too much. Yes a new system can also lead to "unfair" situations. But having ppl roaming around and when they are trapped just log off is ridicoulus. It's fighting without taking the concequences.
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THE CYL
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 08:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: 4ndromed4
I really support this. I mean the current system is just absued too much. Yes a new system can also lead to "unfair" situations. But having ppl roaming around and when they are trapped just log off is ridicoulus. It's fighting without taking the concequences.
Well that would be a very welcomed changed indeed! Hope CCP will fix this
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Reachok
Tres Hombres
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 10:19:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I know that there's enough people irked at this exploit being abused so much and that there are some relatively simple changes that would make it less abusable.
My personal favorite is the "login timer", which would be like a reverse aggro timer.
1) If you log in in space (and only if you log in in space) your ship must remain for a minimum of 5 minutes, during which time it can be aggroed regardless of whether you are connected or not.
2) For the 30 second timer after disconnect, you are vulnerable to aggro mechanics.
3) After logging out, your warpin point never moves until you have actually completed a warp back to it, regardless of how many times you log out.
That would mean that anyone who logged in, then logged out to move their warpin would be vulnerable to being probed out and aggroed within 5 minutes, and would take the logoffski==safe brigade and cut them off at the knees.
It would also mean that those who logoff under gatecloak (or after hitting the jump button) would be able to be tagged with aggro without having to resort to silliness like an AOE weapon on a covert ops.
I like this idea, as well as the OP's. Also in this thread the log off timer like other MMO's that counts down, while you stay connected and can see your ship to allow you to defend yourself if attacked before your ship disappears. And can be canceled if that situation occurs. |
MJ Maverick
IronPig
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 10:51:00 -
[56]
Edited by: MJ Maverick on 24/03/2009 10:52:02
Originally by: Gaogan
If you actually get disconnected at the wrong time what the hell makes you think you should be 100% safe? If you disconnect in a level 4 mission while rats have you scrambled, do you log back on in a pod? If you disconnect while trying to solo a hac in a t1 frig, do you survive? Then why should you be safe if you disconnect when you jump into a gate camp, or at a ss while the guys you just took pot shots at are probing you out? **** happens. If you really disconnect and get killed, too bad, suck it up.
The following needs changed desperately to put a stop to entire fleets logging off, and the 3 @#%!wads that have been hanging around our space all week, logging on, ganking someone, and logging off with total impunity, and other such ******ation.
1) No ship should EVER, EVER EVER vanish while it is locked, scrambled, and being fired on. EVER.
2) Fix the log on and immediate log off/on again exploit to avoid coming back to where you initially logged off.
3) Fix the jump clears aggression timer exploit ( yes, it still works )
4) Increase the non aggro vanish timer from 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Why? Every other game balances log off timers to prevent you from getting away if an enemy is close to catching you if you had not logged off anyhow. Even without aggro you should stick around just long enough for an accomplished prober who is already looking for you to find you. If they were hot on your tail and you tried to ditch, you should be toast.
5) Like every other mmo, when you quit the logoff countdown should start, and you should be able to sit there while your ship is waiting to vanish at the safe spot. If you get attacked then the logoff is aborted and you can defend yourself, if not, then the client closes when your ship vanishes and you know you will be safe until you log on again.
+1
I don't like the OPs suggestion but this sorts it.
--------------------
CCP arse kissing drones are not welcome in my threads. CCP are not perfect.
Please resize your sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Tomic
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 11:24:00 -
[57]
I totally support this.
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Namelessness
Amarr
KINGS OF EDEN
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 12:38:00 -
[58]
How many more years will the logoffskies have to continue?
Thanks for all the goodness you add to EVE CCP but this exploit really needs to be solved once and for all...
Totally supporting this thread!
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.03.25 17:59:00 -
[59]
Even though the emoragers are flooding the Assembly Hall with bullcrap posts about alliance renaming (go back to CAOD, whiners) and pushing legitimate issues to the bottom, I think this still merits attention.
Once again, what exactly does it take to get a CSM to even acknowledge this exists?
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Foulque
|
Posted - 2009.03.26 05:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Darkside 34
Once you are agressed (someone is attacking you) then your ship will NOT dissapear until the hostiles STOP aggroing you. Your ship will continue to attempt to warp off to another safe, so if the hostiles have horrible tackle, its their bad luck.
Would fix the issue without screwing over genuine disconnects. May want to change that to still disappearing after 15 minutes though. There's nothing really wrong with the current 15min timer, it's avoiding that timer which is the issue.
________
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Suitonia
interimo
End of The Line.
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 05:20:00 -
[61]
Support
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Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 10:33:00 -
[62]
Supported.
Exploiting aggro and logoff mechanics is making pvp too easy to avoid. Not simply because of the CTRL Q at a gate but also seeing gangs log off everyone but their cloaked scout until you go away.
I like the idea of a packet sent to differentiate between a CTRL Q and a genuine disconnect. Don't know if it is possible but that would seem to be a solid idea in principle.
Zos
|
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 10:40:00 -
[63]
Should be changes yes.
And no it is impossible to differentiate between real disconnect and a ctrl+q. Well that would be possible, but then they would just pull out their network cable or disable their wireless. (Or do something more fancy by letting their firewall block all eve packets).
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:56:00 -
[64]
Example.
Solo roamer in a Hurricane comes to our home space this morning. He roams about a bit and we respond. Soon as he sees more than two in local he logs, then uses the CTRL Q repeatedly to get a postion with eyes on the gate we are camping with bubbles, he logs again.
We move to the other side of the gate and wait, he logs back in, he jumps, he ctrl Q's again.
PvP has gotten so lame I think even wow is looking good now.
Zos
|
Sydian Rie
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 19:09:00 -
[65]
Supported!
For the ones who are scared of pvp in a game that is made for pvp, just quit or grow a pair.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 19:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Zostera
Example.
Solo roamer in a Hurricane comes to our home space this morning. He roams about a bit and we respond. Soon as he sees more than two in local he logs, then uses the CTRL Q repeatedly to get a postion with eyes on the gate we are camping with bubbles, he logs again.
We move to the other side of the gate and wait, he logs back in, he jumps, he ctrl Q's again.
PvP has gotten so lame I think even wow is looking good now.
Zos
See my signature for a way to gank the next ship that pulls that.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Sydian Rie
Minmatar
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:02:00 -
[67]
The more I think about it, the more I like the original idea. If you are agroed then you die, you do not warp away you do not collect $200 How is it even logical to think that pilot can log off and simply does not exist anymore to the players that are still logged in, even entire fleets.
Eve is not a compassionate game, you die you lose everything. So why should we allow this type of thing to happen just because people are scared to play the game.
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.04.09 19:45:00 -
[68]
Bump.
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Karagol
Minmatar
I.D.I.O.T.
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.04.11 10:01:00 -
[69]
Supported!
Lieber stehend sterben, als knieend leben! |
KineTiK
KINGS OF EDEN
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.04.12 17:26:00 -
[70]
supported.
Yo momma so fat she got more chins than a Hong Kong phonebook. |
Indiria Fuentes
Terra Rosa Militia
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.04.13 11:46:00 -
[71]
/signed
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SecHaul
|
Posted - 2009.04.13 11:58:00 -
[72]
I support that log-off timers be re-addressed, however the OP is a little excessive a solution. I would like to see a simple increase to the timer and a correction of when aggro is received (if received after logging, you should have the 15 min timer). Not sure how to correct the multiple logon / log-off issue.
I have seen highly 'respected' PvP alliances doing this, it's a little pathetic.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2009.04.13 18:12:00 -
[73]
stupid solution..
the only change should be to fix where you land when you log back in, so that you WILL end at the gate when logging back in and you will have the 2-5 sec to lock scramble even if he instant log of again
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 18:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: SecHaul
I support that log-off timers be re-addressed, however the OP is a little excessive a solution. I would like to see a simple increase to the timer and a correction of when aggro is received (if received after logging, you should have the 15 min timer). Not sure how to correct the multiple logon / log-off issue.
I have seen highly 'respected' PvP alliances doing this, it's a little pathetic.
That would only cover half of the problem. As it is most people are not stupid enough to log while they have aggro. Instead they either jump through a gate or warp around for 15 minutes to clear aggro, then log. When logging without aggro it needs to take a bit longer so someone who already has probes out and is hunting you has a chance to find you in time.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
stupid solution..
the only change should be to fix where you land when you log back in, so that you WILL end at the gate when logging back in and you will have the 2-5 sec to lock scramble even if he instant log of again
Reading comprehension for teh winz. The problem is not with logging off at a gate, but rather at a safe spot.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 05:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/04/2009 05:43:42
I've lost a carrier in Empire recently, turns out you have to wait 20 seconds before you jump ( for the purprose of getting a better look at the flashing red gang in front of you, obviously). I was bumped to hell and back immediately after exiting the station and couldn't make it back. (mwding vagabonds are quite fun ain't they?)
So I'm wondering what is the common procedure in such cases:
1. Check station surroundings with an alt first.
2. Set an insta jump bookmark prior to exiting the station with the carrier.
3. Log off.
Screw log off, I would appreciate it if the untargetable time interval after undocking in Empire could be extended to 30 seconds or more for capital ships.
Black Sun Empire |
Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.05.29 02:45:00 -
[76]
Now that we have a new CSM, I'm hoping we can get some love for this.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Esker Sheep
|
Posted - 2009.05.29 16:06:00 -
[77]
Make it simple. You don't disappear if you disconnect whilst you have aggro. Your ship stays until the bitter end. If you log when jumping through the gate but cloak drops and you get aggro before the 30 second timer expires so be it. It may lead to some losses due to real disconnection issues but would remove the exploit.
Support the idea of removing the logging exploit.
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